Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

[Pontifex Maximus]

God given you got me there. So you are a member of a well regulated militia run the state and meet all it criteria and its requirements?

I am a member of the militia.

[Infidel144]

God given you got me there. So you are a member of a well regulated militia run the state and meet all it criteria and its requirements?

The well regulated militia is the people whose right keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The requirement is on the State.
Not the people.

[Pontifex Maximus]

No. The militia exists in spite of, and in most cases formulated by the founders, in opposition to the state. However, there are plenty of scenarios where the militia could indeed aid the state. The scenario of foreign invasion springs to mind. The U.S. military being supplemented by millions of armed citizens to defend against an invasion springs to mind, much along the Swiss model. The term "regulated" refers only to its readiness, organization, and coordination.

[Infidel144]

No. The militia exists in spite of, and in most cases formulated by the founders, in opposition to the state. However, there are plenty of scenarios where the militia could indeed aid the state. The scenario of foreign invasion springs to mind. The U.S. military being supplemented by millions of armed citizens to defend against an invasion springs to mind, much along the Swiss model. The term "regulated" refers only to its readiness, organization, and coordination.

If this is intended for my comment, then your "No." is out of place, as nothing there contradicts anything I said.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Well, I outlined why your comment was wrong. The militia is not regulated by the state, especially in any sense by the federal government. It exists independent of and often in spite of especially the federal government. I fail to see how there are any duties imposed by the state to maintain the militia. I guess it boils down to this: that "requirement" are you referring to? - respectfully

[Infidel144]

Well, I outlined why your comment was wrong.

My comment was not wrong.

The militia is not regulated by the state, especially in any sense by the federal government.

I did not say it was.

It exists independent of and often in spite of especially the federal government. I fail to see how there are any duties imposed by the state to maintain the militia. I guess it boils down to this: that "requirement" are you referring to? - respectfully

What is the only requirement in the Second Amendment?
To not infringe upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Hey man, as one of the people actively keeping and bearing arms I have no objection.

[conon394]

I am a member of the militia.

You did not answer the weird god given part.

The term "regulated" refers only to its readiness, organization, and coordination

That is an interpretation you can make up others.

[Pontifex Maximus]

You did not answer the weird god given part.

Well allow me to supplement:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The Second Amendment being part of the bill of rights identifies it as a God given right. To perhaps anticipate your argument: your atheism and lack of understanding of God is no excuse to erase this enumerated right.

[conon394]

The Second Amendment being part of the bill of rights identifies it as a God given right

No it implies a right given by 'we the people' not god lets just keep him (if he/she/they exists) out of it since framers did .

[PointOfViewGun]

False. Nobody is "OK" with people being murdered. What we are not "OK" with is constitutional and God given rights being curtailed due to the criminal actions of insane people.

Many are pretty OK with people dying just for the sake of easy access to gun. Regulating that as curtailing "god given rights" is nothing but appeal to emotion. There is no substance to it.

I would be very hesitant to wave the bloody shirt around while citing the ATF as the agency that will deliver us all from the horrific reality of child murder.

ATF's gross mishandling of a particular incident 30 years ago says nothing about the problems with gun registry. We don't apply the same logic to any other institution. Why apply it to ATF?

Universal background checks are already a thing. If your argument is that they do not work, and clearly they do not work to keep guns out of the hands of people who are insane and intend to commit crimes without saying that part out loud, perhaps what you should be promoting is the extension of mental healthcare access which is woefully lacking. Then again, it seems that as often as not when these lunatics go on shooting sprees the perp was "known to law enforcement." So, when our institutions have clearly failed us and corralled children into a state-run education program that is a "gun free zone" and where they would rather taze, disarm, and detain parents rather than allow them to enter their state run building to defend their own children it causes one to wonder where exactly things went wrong. The second amendment seems well downstream of all these other failures.

Nice straw man but we know better. The argument is not that the concept does not work but that it is undermined immensely to make them inefficient in the case of USA. In a political environment where one side doesn't even allow simple concepts like a digitally searchable database for gun registry it is a steep curve to climb for sensible measures like mental health checks and aids.

Well allow me to supplement:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The Second Amendment being part of the bill of rights identifies it as a God given right. To perhaps anticipate your argument: your atheism and lack of understanding of God is no excuse to erase this enumerated right.

At best they could claim it to be god given. As far as anyone know god made no declaration over this issue as there is no religious text in any religion that points at it. It's also fun to point out that god does not appear in the text of the Bill of Rights. Both the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are quite godless. While you could argue that some parts of it are influenced from god given rights in religious texts its rather a stretch to include the 2nd Amendment in there.

[Pontifex Maximus]

No it implies a right given by 'we the people' not god lets just keep him (if he/she/they exists) out of it since framers did .

The framers absolutely believed rights were conferred by God, any claim to the contrary is demonstrably wrong.

Many are pretty OK with people dying just for the sake of easy access to gun.

Not me, so argue in circles all you please with this fictitious person with these supposed beliefs.

ATF's gross mishandling of a particular incident 30 years ago says nothing about the problems with gun registry. We don't apply the same logic to any other institution. Why apply it to ATF?

Oops! Accidentally conservative! If only we had a way to protect ourselves from the government grossly mishandling something...if only we could think of a possible deterrent...

You're the one giving government the free pass, not me. Hilariously, the very agency you claim will solve the problem of child murder was A-ok with "people dying just for the sake of..." and fill in the blank. This is in and of itself the heart and soul of the pro-gun argument. We must defend ourselves against the murderous whims of the government.

Nice straw man but we know better. The argument is not that the concept does not work but that it is undermined immensely to make them inefficient in the case of USA. In a political environment where one side doesn't even allow simple concepts like a digitally searchable database for gun registry it is a steep curve to climb for sensible measures like mental health checks and aids.

Assuming a national gun registry would stop anyone from murdering anyone else, which is a big if. Not sure your solution solves anything really.

At best they could claim it to be god given. As far as anyone know god made no declaration over this issue as there is no religious text in any religion that points at it. It's also fun to point out that god does not appear in the text of the Bill of Rights. Both the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are quite godless. While you could argue that some parts of it are influenced from god given rights in religious texts its rather a stretch to include the 2nd Amendment in there.

You know what does appear in the text of the Second Amendment? "Arms" and "Shall not be infringed." Your belief or lack thereof in God has zero bearing on that, but you've already conceded that point.

[conon394]

The framers absolutely believed rights were conferred by God, any claim to the contrary is demonstrably wrong.

And yet where it god in the constitution I fail to see a refrence

[Pontifex Maximus]

The entire context of the document suggests the founders believed natural rights, enshrined in the Constitution, derived from God. Your argument ignores the historiography. However, even if that was not the case and all the founders were avowed atheists, that does not change the text of the Constitution at all, which explicitly makes unconstitutional any restriction on the ownership of firearms. Any restriction even the most hardcore conservative would concede is a gift to the anti-gun point of view.

[conon394]

Err to first the text is clear it is ordained by the people not god. You are making an assumption

which explicitly makes unconstitutional any restriction on the ownership of firearms

Untrue it explicitly in fact makes that a right only to have a well regulated militia.

I suppose it is a waste of time to mention a sentence formulated by men who had no concept of what current modern fire arms can do and a rather large many of them were concerned more about keeping their slaves from rebelling.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Untrue it explicitly in fact makes that a right only to have a well regulated militia.

Your reading of that as a restriction goes against all Second amendment jurisprudence, and I say that in the interests of every ethnic minority or woman who would never be construed as being part of the militia at the time of the founding. Allow me to illustrate my point further: am I allowed to own a gun for the purpose of hunting turkey, deer or quail?

[PointOfViewGun]

Not me, so argue in circles all you please with this fictitious person with these supposed beliefs.
Oops! Accidentally conservative! If only we had a way to protect ourselves from the government grossly mishandling something...if only we could think of a possible deterrent...
You're the one giving government the free pass, not me. Hilariously, the very agency you claim will solve the problem of child murder was A-ok with "people dying just for the sake of..." and fill in the blank. This is in and of itself the heart and soul of the pro-gun argument. We must defend ourselves against the murderous whims of the government.
Assuming a national gun registry would stop anyone from murdering anyone else, which is a big if. Not sure your solution solves anything really.
You know what does appear in the text of the Second Amendment? "Arms" and "Shall not be infringed." Your belief or lack thereof in God has zero bearing on that, but you've already conceded that point.

That's one way to use so many words yet address none of the points within the context of the discussion. That and your false claims about what I do or did is one way to concede it all. How you see merit in that is beyond me. We know better.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Gainsaying is not an argument, wow that was a record time for races to the bottom!

[Heathen Hammer]

Its always FBI or some other alphabet agency that knows about the shooter before he does his thing and they shooters then magically acquire firearms, while law enforcement heroically picks its nose while shootings happen in front of them, but yeah, its citizens being able to defend themselves that is the problem.
But yeah, America doesn't have a gun problem, America has a law enforcement problem. It is long overdue to break apart agencies like FBI and replace them with something more transparent, less corrupt and less incentivized to create more problems to justify its own existence.