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Thread: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

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    Default Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Texas shooting: 19 children among dead in primary school attack
    The gunman opened fire at Robb Elementary School - which teaches children aged seven to 10 - in the city of Uvalde before he was killed by law enforcement, officials said.
    The 18-year-old suspect had a handgun, an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle and high-capacity magazines, investigators say.
    The teenager is suspected of shooting his grandmother before the rampage.
    Local media report he may have been a high school student in the area.
    Others were asked to give DNA samples to help identify some of the young victims.
    SUSPECT INFO: New details obtained about 18-year-old shooter who officials say killed 19 students, 2 adults at Texas elementary school
    The source reports that according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the suspect legally purchased two AR platform rifles at a local federal firearms licensee on two separate dates: May 17, 2022, and May 20, 2022. One of the rifles he had purchased was left in the crashed truck. The other rifle (a Daniel Defense) was located in the school with the suspect.
    On May 18, 2022, the suspect reportedly purchased 375 rounds of 5.56 ammunition.
    Imagine having to line up to give DNA samples so that the authorities can identify if your kid has been shot in the face by an 18 year old that bought guns and ample ammunition legally.

    This was the 27th school shooting in USA with injuries or deaths this year. It's a mental health and gun problem. Meanwhile, the House passed a bill in 2019 to expand background checks which has been sitting against the Senate since then. Yet, the issue runs deeper as per Firearms Protection Act, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), which handles the background checks, is not allowed to create a registry for gun owners.

    We do not know yet whether a background check would flag the 18 year old as unstable and reject gun sales to him at this point, but the political landscape being so divisive against such a basic and fundamental gun control measure it is naive to expect any meaningful measure be made against such a problem. It leaves parents to wonder if their kids are next against bad to non-existent mental health measures and easy access to guns for everyone.

    Discuss.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; May 26, 2022 at 04:35 AM.
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  2. #2
    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    As for the OP, from the Biden thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Here's the next sequence of events:

    - Democrats will offer platitudes and maybe push a law that they know won't pass
    - Republicans will use the moment to smear Democrats and push for more guns
    - "tHoUgHtS aNd PrAyErS"
    - conservatives buy more guns and ammo cause big government is gonna come for their guns, it's totally for real this time, you guize!
    - everyone just powerlessly watches this play out, same as it always has.
    Last edited by alhoon; May 26, 2022 at 01:58 AM. Reason: continuity
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  3. #3
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Problem is, there's a few different things in here that overlap. So looking at AqD's post and going "abhorrent" doesn't address the different underlying causal affects for mass shootings. And simply saying "make guns harder to get" is addressing symptoms, not causes, so it's unlikely to stop mass killing events entirely.

    Firstly, it's not unusual for mass shootings to occur in clusters. There is a contagion effect at play. Someone who is having problematic thoughts sees someone else follow through and is more likely to be inspired to act - at this point, mass shooters are literally referencing each other in their manifestos and online posts. While mass shootings of this kind are more common in the US, they do happen outside the US too - and they also play into the contagion effect - the perpetrators are part of online communities, inspired by similar sets of semi-related societal complaints (be they personal or political). This social contagion process occurs irrespective of the legality or free availability of firearms - and it might manifest itself through different modes of action - explosives, knives, cars or something else. For example, in Australia over recent years cars have become a weapon of choice for mass murder.

    Secondly, mass shootings are rarely 'spur of the moment' - they are often planned, or considered over long lead up periods. So while it is more difficult to get firearms in say New Zealand or Norway than it is in the US, they can still be obtained with time and planning, or the prospective mass-murderer might look at alternatives.

    Thirdly, mass killings are a political act. They might be addressing local, national or international politics, an ethnic group's treatment, schoolyard inter-personal traumas or any other number of grievances - they are an extreme response to someone's sense of inter-personal victimisation. Like suicide and other forms of harm, they are an abnormal manifestation of frustration and exasperation, and in particular feelings of helplessness. As a political act that generally seeks to either inspire others to act, or to assert the perpetrators message, it can be considered terrorism. even when perpetrated by children.

    Unless these other areas are addressed, then more gun control is only likely to reduce, not remove the occurrences of mass killings. Of course, even though band-aids don't prevent cuts, we still use them to stop the bleeding, so similarly, I am an advocate for gun control, because it is one aspect of a larger conversation that will save lives with very little practical consequence.

    But the solution to mass killings like these, can be found in looking at how our societies treat those amongst us who fall outside mainstream beliefs, conversations and thoughts - and in particular by how our political and social dialogues treat disagreements and difference of opinion.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  4. #4

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    We do not know yet whether a background check would flag the 18 year old as unstable and reject gun sales to him at this point, but the political landscape being so divisive against such a basic and fundamental gun control measure it is naive to except any meaningful measure be made against such a problem.
    The House bill to expand background checks to private sales isn’t relevant because the shooter purchased the weapon at a federally licensed store, meaning he had to pass a federal background check according to federal law. Neither is a national gun registry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I'm convinced that if the U.S. wanted, they could solve the conflict in 48 hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  5. #5

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The House bill to expand background checks to private sales isn’t relevant because the shooter purchased the weapon at a federally licensed store, meaning he had to pass a federal background check according to federal law. Neither is a national gun registry.
    Thank you for making it obvious that you chose to ignore the point made in the opening post despite quoting it. This is exactly a part of the problem USA is facing.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Thank you for making it obvious that you chose to ignore the point made in the opening post despite quoting it. This is exactly a part of the problem USA is facing.
    Bit weird to start a separate thread about this if basic facts about it aren’t relevant to your point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I'm convinced that if the U.S. wanted, they could solve the conflict in 48 hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  7. #7

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Bit weird to start a separate thread about this if basic facts about it aren’t relevant to your point.
    That's not the issue here though. There is a particular reason why your comment requires ignoring context to make a point. Republican lawmakers' hysteria eliminates any hope of having simple and sensible gun control measures. The basic facts you talk of there are indeed irrelevant to the point you quoted. If Republican's can't even play nice with such simple measures how can they be expected to make a real difference?
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    If your point isn’t about the Robb Elementary School shooting and is actually about Republicans, you might have mentioned it in the OP, let alone the part I quoted. Chuck Schumer, Democrat, doesn’t want to bring the background checks bill you mentioned to a vote, and right now he can’t even get his own party to help him pass it. Manchin, Democrat, said no thanks. If that isn’t your point either, and neither is the fact the bill would have done exactly zero things to stop the shooting you started a thread about, maybe whatever your point is belongs in the rant thread.

    If background checks is what you care about, consider presenting any causal link between background checks and mass shootings, for example. Doesn’t look too promising.

    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 26, 2022 at 08:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I'm convinced that if the U.S. wanted, they could solve the conflict in 48 hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  9. #9
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If Republican's can't even play nice with such simple measures how can they be expected to make a real difference?
    You're assuming the measures they need to make a real difference would be acceptable to them. The facts stat otherwise: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/w...a-britain.html

  10. #10

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    If your point isn’t about the Robb Elementary School shooting and is actually about Republicans, you might have mentioned it in the OP, let alone the part I quoted. Chuck Schumer, Democrat, doesn’t want to bring the background checks bill you mentioned to a vote, and right now he can’t even get his own party to help him pass it. Manchin, Democrat, said no thanks. If that isn’t your point either, and neither is the fact the bill would have done exactly zero things to stop the shooting you started a thread about, maybe whatever your point is belongs in the rant thread.

    If background checks is what you care about, consider presenting any causal link between background checks and mass shootings, for example. Doesn’t look too promising.

    Sigh... It is in the part you quoted. You're simply digging your hole deeper. There isn't much I can do if you fail to address what I said at such a fundamental level.


    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    You're assuming the measures they need to make a real difference would be acceptable to them. The facts stat otherwise: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/w...a-britain.html
    Got an article with no paywall?
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    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Got an article with no paywall?
    you can still read it in incognito mode.

    Except Germany, the basic idea is all the same - reduce the numbers of guns, or certain types of guns, to the point it's almost impossible for ordinary people to acquire (both legally or illegally). It's also the same way worked in China, where gun crimes and industries were widespread in 90s and 2000s.

    It does not prevent terrorist attack or organized crimes though.
    Last edited by AqD; May 26, 2022 at 02:16 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    you can still read it in incognito mode.
    Nope.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by PoVG
    Sigh... It is in the part you quoted. You're simply digging your hole deeper. There isn't much I can do if you fail to address what I said at such a fundamental level.
    ​Sigh….
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I'm convinced that if the U.S. wanted, they could solve the conflict in 48 hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  14. #14
    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Uvalde police were at the scene, but did nothing except harass parents outside the school. The shooter went on with his rampage unabated for nearly an hour before a Border Patrol response team killed him. Video shows police armed with rifles and wearing vests tackling a parent to the ground:



    At least one death is directly attributable to incompetence.

    “When the cops came, the cop said: 'Yell if you need help!' And one of the persons in my class said 'help.' The guy overheard and he came in and shot her," the boy said. "The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”
    The city of Uvalde spends roughly 40% of it's budget on it's police force.
    Fact:Apples taste good, and you can throw them at people if you're being attacked
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    One thing that also struck me about this:
    The Uvalde school district had a safety plan that included its own police force, social media monitoring and a threat reporting system to "provide a safe and secure environment" for students.

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/26/us/uv...day/index.html
    A federally licensed seller, a federal background check…..all the band aids were in place. The shooter also made it a priority to shoot his grandmother whom he presumably lived with? Do we know where his parents are? Given the direct link between irresponsible parental behavior/neglect and the children who become mass shooters, perhaps a first step should be to hold biological parents and/or legal guardians legally liable for the actions of their children, say as minors or so long as they are dependents/members of the household. It wouldn’t be a panacea, but it may get us closer to a solution than the options currently available, if parents have a direct incentive to be parents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I'm convinced that if the U.S. wanted, they could solve the conflict in 48 hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".

  16. #16
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    One thing that also struck me about this:

    A federally licensed seller, a federal background check…..all the band aids were in place. The shooter also made it a priority to shoot his grandmother whom he presumably lived with? Do we know where his parents are? Given the direct link between irresponsible parental behavior/neglect and the children who become mass shooters, perhaps a first step should be to hold biological parents and/or legal guardians legally liable for the actions of their children, say as minors or so long as they are dependents/members of the household. It wouldn’t be a panacea, but it may get us closer to a solution than the options currently available, if parents have a direct incentive to be parents.
    The danger is that some kids do their own thing no matter how well parented they are. They are influenced by many factors, including friends (or lack of) colleagues and social media that no parent can be fully aware of - and kids act in spite of their parent's actions no matter how reasonable they might be. But certainly, households can be a negative influence on kids, so some investigating of family is likely warranted when anti-social behaviour on this scale manifests.

    My gut feeling is that strong anti-social actions like mass shootings are evidence of broader issues in the individual's society, as well as more micro issues within families.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Would he be allowed to purchase a rifle and so many ammunition if he went through psych evaluation like many prospective gun owners in many other countries have to go through?
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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    The future of the second Amendment is bright.

    N Engl J Med 2022; 386:1955-1956 May 19, 2022
    Current Causes of Death in Children and Adolescents in the United States-New England Journal of Medicine.


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    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Well I think given the performance of Uvalde police I do believe they do deserve defending and starting over is in order. 40% of the town budget and they actively stop the boarder patrol tactical team from talking action for close to an hour?
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Robb Elementary School shooting - May 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well I think given the performance of Uvalde police I do believe they do deserve defending and starting over is in order. 40% of the town budget and they actively stop the boarder patrol tactical team from talking action for close to an hour?
    They were worried the guns might be harmed.

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