Missing swords for musketeer units

**Dooz** · July 18, 2021, 11:23 PM

Hello. I'm trying to figure out why certain units in a mod I'm playing either don't have and don't use secondary weapons at all, or some units that do use the secondary weapon in melee don't have them appearing on their side like other similarly situated units. I'm hoping people knowledgeable in these matters might be able to help diagnose and solve this issue, and double hoping it'll be save compatible for an ongoing campaign.

Below are examples of three configurations of the following: "yes/no idle weapon" referring to whether there is a sword model hanging off the side; "yes/no melee weapon" referring to whether there is a sword being used in melee combat. Included are screenshots of the two states for each, and their relevant sections from the battle_models.modeldb file. If entries from export_descr_unit or anything else not included would be helpful, let me know.

Spoiler for yes idle, yes melee:

Spoiler for no idle, yes melee:

Code:

12 musketiere_r 
1 1 
64 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/1648_late_musketeers_lod0.mesh 6400 
29
7 england 
68 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_england.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
6 france 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_france.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
5 spain 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_spain.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
5 milan 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_milan.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture  
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr 
6 russia 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_russia.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
5 turks 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_turks.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
5 moors 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_moors.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture  
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
6 sicily 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_sicily.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
7 denmark 
68 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_denmark.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture  
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
3 hre 
64 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_hre.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
6 venice 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_venice.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
5 egypt 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_egypt.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
7 hungary 
68 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_hungary.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
8 scotland 
69 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_scotland.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
9 byzantium 
70 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_byzantium.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture  
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr 
8 portugal 
69 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_portugal.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr 
7 mongols 
68 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_mongols.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture  
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
6 poland 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_poland.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
5 slave 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_slave.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr 
7 normans 
68 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normans.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr 
6 saxons 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_saxons.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr   
8 timurids 
69 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_timurids.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr 
5 trier 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_trier.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr 
8 bayreuth 
69 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_bayreuth.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr   
13 siebenbuergen 
74 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_siebenbuergen.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
42 unit_sprites/france_Pikemen_ug2_sprite.spr
6 repven 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_repven.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
5 malta 
66 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_malta.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
6 aztecs 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_aztecs.texture  
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
12 papal_states
73 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_papal_states.texture 
67 unit_models/_Units/1648_late_crew/textures/1648_crew_normal.texture 
33 unit_sprites/kanoniere_sprite.spr
29
7 england 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
6 france 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
5 spain 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
5 milan 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
6 russia 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
5 turks 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
5 moors 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
6 sicily 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
7 denmark 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0  
3 hre 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
6 venice 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
5 egypt 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
7 hungary 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
8 scotland 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
9 byzantium 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
8 portugal 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
7 mongols 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
6 poland 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
5 slave 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0    
7 normans 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
6 saxons 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0  
8 timurids 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0  
5 trier 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
8 bayreuth
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
13 siebenbuergen
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
6 repven 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0
5 malta 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
6 aztecs
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
12 papal_states
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_diff.texture 
56 unit_models/AttachmentSets/musket_equipment_norm.texture 0 
1 
4 None 
11 MTW2_Musket
20 MTW2_Non_Shield_Fast 1 
19 MTW2_Musket_Primary 1 
18 MTW2_Sword_Primary 
16 -0.090000004 0 0 -0.34999999 0.80000001 0.60000002

Spoiler for no idle, no melee:

Ideally, I'd like to add swords to all musketeer units, both hanging off the side and for use in melee (double ideally, I'd love to have the sheathe appear empty while the sword is in use [or no sheathe if necessary], if that wouldn't require a new model). Short of that, I'd still like to add swords for use in melee to the units that don't use them at all, even if it doesn't appear on the side. Whichever, if any, is save compatible would be the more immediately desirable option, but I'd like to know how to do both for future reference.

Any help would be much appreciated.

**Callistonian** · July 19, 2021, 03:17 AM

The way that primary and secondary weapons usually work in mods that are going for realism is that parts of the secondary weapons are included in the primary weapon group and vice versa so that when the unit is using their primary attack, parts of the secondary weapon are still visible and vice versa.

For example, for the musketeer unit, you would include the sword hilt (sticking out of the sheathe) in the primary weapon group along with the musket but assign it to a different joint (probably torso or pelvis or whatever the sheathe is assigned to). So when the unit uses its primary attack, the sword hilt is visible. Then you would handle the secondary attack by including parts of the primary weapon in the secondary weapon group, i.e. putting the musket in the secondary weapon group but also assigned to a different joint (maybe put it on the back assigned to the torso). This way the musket still shows up on the model when the unit switches to its secondary attack - the sword shows up in hand and the hilt disappears from the sheathe so it looks like they drew their swords.

Depending on the exporter you use, the mesh groups that are used for the primary and secondary weapons are identified using metadata. If you use Modeller's Toolbox to convert and Milkshape to edit, primary weapons will have 'primaryactive0' as their class (first line) in the comment and likewise secondary weapons will have 'secondaryactive0'. Unfortunately, M2 was not set to allow simple attachment swaps via code - none of this can be done in bmdb, it must be done in a 3D editor. These edits will certainly be save game compatible though.

In your first set of pictures, it looks like the sword hilt on the sheathe is part of the same group as the sheathe, probably an unrelated mesh group that is neither primary/secondaryactive0 and so will always be visible regardless of whether the unit is in primary or secondary attack mode. You can fix this by separating the hilt into its own group and then merging this group with the primaryactive0 group (the musket) while leaving all of the hilt's vertices assigned however they currently are. This will make the hilt disappear when the unit goes into melee so it doesn't look like they just pulled a second sword pulled out of thin air. You can also do this for the musket by duplicating the primaryactive0 group, isolating the musket, and putting it on the back and assigning to torso and then merging into the secondaryactive0 group so that it shows up on the back when in melee mode and it doesn't look their muskets de-materialized.

In the second set of pictures, you need to add a sheathe attachment that is neither primary or secondary active. Add the hilt as part of the primary group. Add the musket on the back or wherever as part of the secondary group.

In the third set of pictures everything seems to be fine as the original artist intended - the unit appears to be using their muskets in melee instead of a sword (although they could probably do with a 2-handed axe animation set, this might be fixable in bmdb if you already have the requisite animations in your mod). If you wanted to get them to hold the musket correctly or switch to swords, you would need to make those edits in a 3D editor.

**Dooz** · July 19, 2021, 03:56 AM

Thank you very much for your reply.

Unfortunately, I have zero experience with any of this and don't feel like I can even really follow much of what you've explained. I understand the general idea of having the weapons assigned with and without hilt for certain situations, but I guess I would need to actually see it all laid out in an editing program to really understand.

I was of course hoping it would be a simple text editing job, but I suppose I'm out of luck. Then again, since you were kind enough to provide such detailed information, I might be able to muster the fortitude to perhaps delve into this at some point and have a good idea of where to start. And the more I read over your post, the more it starts to make sense.

In any case, I really appreciate your help. Glad to have this roadmap to help fix these things which have really been nagging at muh immersion.

**Callistonian** · July 19, 2021, 06:57 AM

I can't find any video tutorials on YouTube specifically dealing with attachment swaps, but I'm sure they're out there. I have some videos on my channel using Modeller's Toolbox and Milkshape which might give you some idea of how to get assets in and out and do basic edits. It's worth mentioning that most modders these days are switching to the latest IWTE release for conversion and using Blender for editing which may be more productive for you if you want to continue learning 3D methods and pursuing more demanding projects as your skills improve - learn the best tools first so you don't have to switch later.

Most of the games I've modded use a more dynamic system for attachments which is much more powerful and convenient. They will have attachpoints on the base character model and then use data (XML or plain text files) to coordinate attachment meshes with the base character attachpoints, skeleton, or even the geometry so that attachments can be swapped out by editing text instead of using a 3D editor (i.e. what you were hoping to do). Most RTS, RPG, FPS, etc. games allow you to essentially script which attachments show up where and when and what textures and animations they use and etc. This has been pretty standard practice in the gaming industry since at least the late 90's so I can only think they went with a more 'straightforward' approach in RTW and Medieval II (where attachments are part of the base character mesh) for performance reasons. It's also possible that some of these systems evolved 'organically' out of older systems CA were already using (that seems to be the case with a lot of M2's data actually). But this is all just speculation on my part.

**Dooz** · July 19, 2021, 11:48 AM

Oh, fantastic. I don't see myself modding anything other than TW games, and probably only M2TW at that. I'd probably stick with the more archaic and specifically applicable methods for now since those tutorials look like they tell me all I'd need to know for the basics to do something like this edit.

**TiffanyYoung** · January 20, 2022, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Callistonian

I can't find any video tutorials on YouTube specifically dealing with attachment swaps, but I'm sure they're out there. I have some videos on my channel using Modeller's Toolbox and Milkshape which might give you some idea of how to get assets in and out and do basic edits. It's worth mentioning that most modders these days are switching to the latest IWTE release for conversion and using Blender for editing which may be more productive for you if you want to continue learning 3D methods and pursuing more demanding projects as your skills improve - learn the best tools first so you don't have to switch later.

Most of the games I've modded use a more dynamic system for attachments which is much more powerful and convenient. They will have attachpoints on the base character model and then use data (XML or plain text files) to coordinate attachment meshes with the base character attachpoints, skeleton, or even the geometry so that attachments can be swapped out by editing text instead of using a 3D editor (i.e. what you were hoping to do). Most RTS, RPG, FPS, etc. games allow you to essentially script which attachments show up where and when and what textures and animations they use and etc. This has been pretty standard practice in the gaming industry since at least the late 90's so I can only think they went with a more 'straightforward' approach in RTW and Medieval II (where attachments are part of the base character mesh) for performance reasons. It's also possible that some of these systems evolved 'organically' out of older systems CA were already using (that seems to be the case with a lot of M2's data actually). But this is all just speculation on my part.

Hello Callistonian! I'm trying to make a mesh where the skeleton is a dismounted French Lancer and his weapon can be a 2HSword/primary (and only) weapon (You know a Lancer has Lance/primary weapon and 1 hand sword as a secondary weapon. I'm using IWTE to obtain the DAE file from Lancer lod.0 mesh, using the 2HSword animation and choosing charge/attack as an example to load it in Blender 2.90.

I'm deleting his primary weapon (lance), and I'm importing the 2HSword from the Dismounted Gothic Knight mesh, but in Composing Menu at Blender's, I put the 2HSword into the Armature's content (right side of the program at Blender, where are the hierarchy), but the soldier does not take the sword with his hand. When I play the animation, he just runs without the sword (the sword stands in horizontal position and frozen). It's like I have to make the connection between the sword and the skeleton. In YouTube there no tutorial of this and I'm running out of options. The TW Center questions and answers does not help me, there is no tutorial to swap weapons like this using Blender. I'm hoping you can help me, because it seems you know how to use Blender. I'm newbie at this. Thank you very much.

**Callistonian** · January 22, 2022, 04:04 PM

I've never done that procedure in Blender. It sounds like the sword isn't assigned to the correct joint/bone. You may have better luck asking in the IWTE forums or on the M2 modding discord.

**streety** · June 10, 2022, 06:47 AM

Historically, as a rough guide, most 16th & 17th century arqubusiers & musketeers didn't use swords or even have them. That's mostly a romantic invention of Dumas' "The Three Musketeers" - where in his novels he always has them in sword fights, often on horseback. Although, in his defence, his 3 musketeers were from a palace guards unit, who would at least carry swords and were at least trained to ride a horse. A lot of "period" artwork is either imaginary, or depict such best units, or created in Victorian times and just inventing the swords for all musketeers based on novels like Dumas.

In war, most ordinary units would only see officers carrying swords (and sergeants carrying a shortstaff type weapon). The rank & file would, in a melee, use their muskets as clubs. Many will also carry general-purpose daggers, small foraging axes (and tent mallets etc) in their own personal kits.

Most musketeers are not trained swordsmen, total war is expensive and swords are expensive, and you cannot fight effectively with a sword while carrying a heavy musket or with it slung across your shoulder - and you aren't leaving your musket behind on the battlefield while you get into a sword fight. And it's not very easy to use a musket & bandolier efficiently & quickly with a sword hanging around your shoulder. And on campaign it all adds a lot of extra weight.

Of course, you will always find exceptions - I'm just talking in very broad terms from the mid-16th century by when the arquebus had become common, until the late 17th century when bayonets come into use.