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Thread: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

  1. #121
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    I had a wee look at your replies 14, 28 and 54 and in 28 you say, " Why would you pray for an entity that created the entire universe you exist in? To thank for your existence, to acknowledge its supremeness, to ask for forgiveness for something you have done (as opposed to asking for forgiveness someone did thousands of years ago), to ask for good fortune, etc. The list goes on. It's no faith if all you see god as is a "get out of jail free for a crime you didn't commit" card giver. " Unquote.

    First off I don't ask forgiveness for what someone did thousands of years ago. Forgiveness comes only by believing that Someone just over two thousand years ago paid for my sin with His blood knowing that I couldn't do that and get into heaven. Nowhere in any of these posts do you say how a person is forgiven because you put it all down to the sinner saving himself whereas it is written that no sinner can save himself. In other words your interpretation is salvation by works, the works of the sinner whereas it is also written that The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation, not man.

    So no, you haven't answered my question at all, that being how a muslim male or female gets into heaven? You don't answer how their sins are forgiven, rather you attack what is written about Jesus Christ and His saving Grace. He after all is the One Who is coming back to Judge the world why is that?

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    For some reason this thread started by Axalon about the dilemma of Islam has been deleted down to my starting the thread which is quite untrue. My question for Axalon's thread was to ask POVG how a Muslim then entered heaven to which I have still not got a reply as it appears to me to be one of Islam's dilemmas. So, what I'd like to know is why this thread has been taken from Axalon whose original question has still to be answered and given to my name? If the Koran is the word of God then surely POVG would have no problem in countering Axalon and myself with what the Koran actually says and not fling the word Islamophobia around as has now happened. From his answers rather than answer the questions I put he resorts to Christophobia which seems to be the norm on these threads. Friends this is supposed to be a forum for discussing our differences so let's not depart from that.

  3. #123

    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    I had a wee look at your replies 14, 28 and 54 and in 28 you say, " Why would you pray for an entity that created the entire universe you exist in? To thank for your existence, to acknowledge its supremeness, to ask for forgiveness for something you have done (as opposed to asking for forgiveness someone did thousands of years ago), to ask for good fortune, etc. The list goes on. It's no faith if all you see god as is a "get out of jail free for a crime you didn't commit" card giver. " Unquote.

    First off I don't ask forgiveness for what someone did thousands of years ago. Forgiveness comes only by believing that Someone just over two thousand years ago paid for my sin with His blood knowing that I couldn't do that and get into heaven. Nowhere in any of these posts do you say how a person is forgiven because you put it all down to the sinner saving himself whereas it is written that no sinner can save himself. In other words your interpretation is salvation by works, the works of the sinner whereas it is also written that The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation, not man.

    So no, you haven't answered my question at all, that being how a muslim male or female gets into heaven? You don't answer how their sins are forgiven, rather you attack what is written about Jesus Christ and His saving Grace. He after all is the One Who is coming back to Judge the world why is that?
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    For some reason this thread started by Axalon about the dilemma of Islam has been deleted down to my starting the thread which is quite untrue. My question for Axalon's thread was to ask POVG how a Muslim then entered heaven to which I have still not got a reply as it appears to me to be one of Islam's dilemmas. So, what I'd like to know is why this thread has been taken from Axalon whose original question has still to be answered and given to my name? If the Koran is the word of God then surely POVG would have no problem in countering Axalon and myself with what the Koran actually says and not fling the word Islamophobia around as has now happened. From his answers rather than answer the questions I put he resorts to Christophobia which seems to be the norm on these threads. Friends this is supposed to be a forum for discussing our differences so let's not depart from that.
    Since the splitting of the threads moved post numbers I'll post the relevant ones here again:
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,
    How then logically does a Muslim get into heaven?
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    By having faith and being a good person.
    That one alone answers your question. Yet, you continued to lie that your questions went unanswered.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,
    Well, if that's not logical then tell me how a Muslim gets into heaven by your logic? How is your sin paid for?
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Already answered that but I do find the mentality you're championing for to be quite problematic. Heaven is not a shopping mall. In Islam, sin is not a currency like you think it is. It can be judged and forgiven, not paid. Everyone is responsible for their own sins.

    Meanwhile my question went unanswered:
    Given that Jesus had the power to stop the crucifixion at any moment and he has the power to get his manhood back, what did he sacrifice? What did he give that he can not get back?
    Is it Christophobia to ask that?
    The Armenian Issue
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  4. #124
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    PointOfViewGun,

    Faith in what though? No-one according to Jesus Christ is good and being to you a prophet of God, He surely cannot lie? The price for sin is death so do you really believe that praying for God to forgive you everytime you sin He just looks the other way abandoning His Law which stands forever? The Jews made sacrifices every single day just to cover their sin, not to take it away and millions of them paid with their lives for defying God's Law.

    And no your question didn't go unanswered at all. The Lord Jesus Christ is God in the Second Person of the Trinity so what He gave was His human blood to pay for my sin and the sin of all them that He died for so that we all can enter heaven sin free. At the general resurrection for judgement we will be given new bodies with which we can dwell with Him in heaven. These bodies are not human just as He is not human. Therefore why would He want to change back to anything?

    So, it comes back once again as to how a Muslim's sins are taken away to get into heaven? Another question, what good are all the virgins if as Jesus said that there is no giving and taking in marriage in heaven?

  5. #125

    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Faith in what though? No-one according to Jesus Christ is good and being to you a prophet of God, He surely cannot lie? The price for sin is death so do you really believe that praying for God to forgive you everytime you sin He just looks the other way abandoning His Law which stands forever? The Jews made sacrifices every single day just to cover their sin, not to take it away and millions of them paid with their lives for defying God's Law.
    Faith in Allah and its prophets. If I asked you "how could Jesus be god itself when Quran says that he is merely a prophet?" would be how you keep approaching this debate. It's an obtuse way of argumentation. We have, however, already established that the price of sin is not death, as neither you die when you commit a sin and you are required to die to go to heaven. Death is merely the step into the heaven. Are you referring to Jews being killed by Nazis as a punishment from god because about 2 thousand years ago some of their ancestors supposedly conspired against Jesus? What a pathetic way of justifying genocide. The arguments you're willing to jump to just to deflect from admitting that the core tenet of your belief system that you're preaching here is bogus is mind boggling.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    And no your question didn't go unanswered at all. The Lord Jesus Christ is God in the Second Person of the Trinity so what He gave was His human blood to pay for my sin and the sin of all them that He died for so that we all can enter heaven sin free. At the general resurrection for judgement we will be given new bodies with which we can dwell with Him in heaven. These bodies are not human just as He is not human. Therefore why would He want to change back to anything?
    So, it comes back once again as to how a Muslim's sins are taken away to get into heaven? Another question, what good are all the virgins if as Jesus said that there is no giving and taking in marriage in heaven?
    This doesn't answer my question as you earlier already admitted that Jesus has the power to get back his human blood or that he had the power to stop his crucifixion at any point. Your questions about Muslims are merely deflections from the failure to defend the core tenet of your belief system that you are preaching here. What did Jesus give up that he can not get back?
    The Armenian Issue
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  6. #126
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    PointOfViewGun,

    What the Koran says is thousands of years behind what was written concerning both God and His prophets plus all that was foretold about the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, if Jesus was a mere prophet what exactly does that mean as prophets from God cannot lie? If Mohammed is the final one and superior to Jesus why is he not coming back to judge the world?

    Christianity is built on nonviolence unlike Rome and Islam being built by the sword which in the latter's case is still going on today. Why is that? When Adam and Eve committed the first sin death then came into the world on which they were cast out onto. They didn't die immediately because the world had yet to be populated and so the people or offspring of Adam and Eve were given long life here until death came as it must, for them. Man's lifespan has been changed by God on at least two occasions and that can be traced through googling it. So, death came by sin and its price was blood, that is the blood of everyone who dies meaning that if one died in sin the destination is hell. There's no just walking your way into heaven.

    And talking of genocide I remember seeing pictures, photographs, of Turkish soldiers posing before heaps of Armenian heads which they had butchered.

    Now as for my belief system, it is one based on what Abel believed which is that a Messiah would come, a " seed " of the woman Eve, to contend with Satan for the souls of men. Since no man could do that it was God's plan for His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to come into the world as a man to pay the price of sin on behalf of all those that God the Father had chosen for Him before the worlds were made. That He did so on a cross some two thousand odd years ago is indisputeable. He is the only Way to get into heaven and that by being born again of the Spirit of God which I personally have experienced. So, please don't keep on saying that Mohammed surpasses Jesus for he doesn't by any manner or means. Jesus Christ is God.

    As for what Jesus Christ gave up that He cannot get back, can I ask you to tell us?

  7. #127
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Christianity is built on nonviolence unlike Rome and Islam
    The cognitive dissonance is rather breathtaking there. Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius much?

    for them. Man's lifespan has been changed by God on at least two occasions
    Really do tell?

    a Messiah would come, a " seed " of the woman Eve, to contend with Satan for the souls of men.
    Still misreading genesis I see.

    Since no man could do that it was God's plan for His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to come into the world as a man to pay the price of sin on behalf of all those that God the Father had chosen for Him before the worlds were made
    You do realize the logical gaps inherrent in this statement?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    The cognitive dissonance is rather breathtaking there. Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius much?...
    About twenty years later, Caesarius of Heisterbach relates this story about the massacre:
    When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot "Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics." The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius – Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain.[24]



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_B%C3%A9ziers

    Jerusalem:

    Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and the Temple Mount area generally. According to the Gesta Francorum, speaking only of the Temple Mount area, "...[our men] were killing and slaying even to the Temple of Solomon, where the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..." According to Raymond of Aguilers, also writing solely of the Temple Mount area, " in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins." Writing about the Temple Mount area alone, Fulcher of Chartres, who was not an eyewitness to the Jerusalem siege because he had stayed with Baldwin in Edessa at the time, says: "In this temple 10,000 were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared."[24]

    The eyewitness Gesta Francorum states that some people were spared. Its anonymous author wrote,"When the pagans had been overcome, our men seized great numbers, both men and women, either killing them or keeping them captive, as they wished."[25] Later the same source writes, "[Our leaders] also ordered all the Saracen dead to be cast outside because of the great stench, since the whole city was filled with their corpses; and so the living Saracens dragged the dead before the exits of the gates and arranged them in heaps, as if they were houses. No one ever saw or heard of such slaughter of pagan people, for funeral pyres were formed from them like pyramids, and no one knows their number except God alone. But Raymond caused the Emir and the others who were with him to be conducted to Ascalon, whole and unhurt."[26]

    Another eyewitness source, Raymond of Aguilers, reports that some Muslims survived. After recounting the slaughter on the Temple Mount, he reports of some who "took refuge in the Tower of David, and, petitioning Count Raymond for protection, surrendered the Tower into his hands."[27] These Muslims left with the Fatimid governor for Ascalon.[28] A version of this tradition is also known to the later Muslim historian Ibn al-Athir (10, 193–95), who recounts that after the city was taken and pillaged: "A band of Muslims barricaded themselves into the Oratory of David (Mihrab Dawud) and fought on for several days. They were granted their lives in return for surrendering. The Franks honored their word and the group left by night for Ascalon."[29] One Cairo Geniza letter also refers to some Jewish residents who left with the Fatimid governor.[30]

    Tancred claimed the Temple quarter for himself and offered protection to some of the Muslims there, but he was unable to prevent their deaths at the hands of his fellow crusaders. Additionally, the crusaders claimed the Muslim holy sites of the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa mosque as important Christian sites, and renamed them Templum Domini and Templum Salomonis, respectively. In 1141, the Templum Domini would be consecrated, and the Templum Solomonis would become the headquarters for the Knights Templar.[31]

    Albert of Aachen, who personally was not present but wrote using independent interviews conducted with survivors back in Europe, wrote that even beyond the first round of slaughter that accompanied the fall of Jerusalem, there was another round, "On the third day after the victory judgement was pronounced by the leaders and everyone seized weapons and surged forth for a wretched massacre of all the crowd of gentiles which was still left...whom they had previously spared for the sake of money and human pity".[32] The number killed is not specified, nor is this massacre related in any other contemporary sources.

    Although the crusaders killed many of the Muslim and Jewish residents, eyewitness accounts (Gesta Francorum, Raymond of Aguilers, and the Cairo Geniza documents) demonstrate that some Muslim and Jewish residents were allowed to live, as long as they left Jerusalem.[33]
    Jews
    Further information: History of the Jews and the Crusades
    map of Jerusalem during the Crusades[34]

    Jews had fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend the city, and as the crusaders breached the outer walls, the Jews of the city retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death".[35] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."[36] A contemporary Jewish communication confirms the destruction of the synagogue, though it does not corroborate that any Jews were inside it when it was burned.[37] This letter was discovered among the Cairo Geniza collection in 1975 by historian Shelomo Dov Goitein.[38] Historians believe that it was written just two weeks after the siege, making it "the earliest account on the conquest in any language."[38] The letter of the Karaite elders of Ascalon from the Cairo Geniza indicates that some prominent Jews held for ransom by the crusaders were freed when the Ascalon Karaite Jewish community paid the requested sums of money.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_...1099)#Massacre

    The "christian" pilgrim fathers:

    Captain Tucker and a group of musketeers met with Opechancanough and members of a Powhatan village along the Potomac River on May 22. In preparation for the event, Dr. John Potts prepared poisoned wine. Captain Tucker and others offered ceremonial toasts and 200 Powhatans died after drinking the wine. Another 50 people were killed. Opechancanough escaped, but a number of tribal leaders were killed.[21][22

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian...er_settlements

    Christ himself was peacefull, his antecessors not so much.
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  9. #129
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    I was hoping to make basics do the work...

    "About twenty years later..."

    Well If I got executed that day at least my last words could be you are not even pronouncing it correctly Cicero would think you a drunk.
    Last edited by conon394; July 10, 2022 at 12:49 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #130
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Uppss

    Couldn't resist...

    But now i'm curious on his answer. ^^
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  11. #131

    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    What the Koran says is thousands of years behind what was written concerning both God and His prophets plus all that was foretold about the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. So, if Jesus was a mere prophet what exactly does that mean as prophets from God cannot lie? If Mohammed is the final one and superior to Jesus why is he not coming back to judge the world?

    Christianity is built on nonviolence unlike Rome and Islam being built by the sword which in the latter's case is still going on today. Why is that? When Adam and Eve committed the first sin death then came into the world on which they were cast out onto. They didn't die immediately because the world had yet to be populated and so the people or offspring of Adam and Eve were given long life here until death came as it must, for them. Man's lifespan has been changed by God on at least two occasions and that can be traced through googling it. So, death came by sin and its price was blood, that is the blood of everyone who dies meaning that if one died in sin the destination is hell. There's no just walking your way into heaven.

    And talking of genocide I remember seeing pictures, photographs, of Turkish soldiers posing before heaps of Armenian heads which they had butchered.

    Now as for my belief system, it is one based on what Abel believed which is that a Messiah would come, a " seed " of the woman Eve, to contend with Satan for the souls of men. Since no man could do that it was God's plan for His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to come into the world as a man to pay the price of sin on behalf of all those that God the Father had chosen for Him before the worlds were made. That He did so on a cross some two thousand odd years ago is indisputeable. He is the only Way to get into heaven and that by being born again of the Spirit of God which I personally have experienced. So, please don't keep on saying that Mohammed surpasses Jesus for he doesn't by any manner or means. Jesus Christ is God.

    As for what Jesus Christ gave up that He cannot get back, can I ask you to tell us?
    You clearly do not see how you hurt your position more than I do... You don't need me to answer the question. You need to answer it. What did Jesus give up that he can not get back?
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  12. #132
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Dear friends and enemies alike,

    There is nowhere in Scripture that Jesus Christ commands His people to kill. So, the answer to all your statements about what happened way back then is that these men were not Christians but in the case of the Reformers they defended themselves and their families from Rome as well as Islam the two butcher brigades of the time. Has Rome or Islam changed since then? No, they both still incite their people to kill any that do not follow them. Northern Ireland and Israel are notable for that.

  13. #133
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Tribunus
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    Yep, UVF was only defending:

    In March and April 1966, Irish nationalists/republicans held parades throughout Ireland to mark the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising. On 8 March, a group of Irish republicans dynamited Nelson's Pillar in Dublin. At the time, the IRA was weak and not engaged in armed action, but some unionists warned it was about to be revived to launch another campaign against Northern Ireland.[68][69] In April 1966, loyalists led by Ian Paisley, a Protestant fundamentalist preacher, founded the Ulster Constitution Defence Committee (UCDC). It set up a paramilitary-style wing called the Ulster Protestant Volunteers (UPV)[68] to oust Terence O'Neill, Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. Although O'Neill was a unionist, they viewed him as being too 'soft' on the civil rights movement and opposed his policies.[70]

    A UVF mural in Belfast

    At the same time, a loyalist group calling itself the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) emerged in the Shankill area of Belfast. It was led by Gusty Spence, a former British soldier. Many of its members were also members of the UCDC and UPV.[71] In April and May 1966 it petrol bombed a number of Catholic homes, schools and businesses. A firebomb killed an elderly Protestant widow, Matilda Gould.[68] On 21 May, the UVF issued a statement declaring "war" against the IRA and anyone helping it.[72] The UVF fatally shot a Catholic civilian, John Scullion, as he walked home on 27 May. A month later it shot three Catholic civilians as they left a pub, killing Peter Ward, a Catholic from the Falls Road.[68][72] Shortly after, the UVF was proscribed by the Northern Ireland government.[68] The UVF is still considered a terrorist organization by the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland.[73]

    The Troubles - Wikipedia


    The UDA also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...iation_actions

    The real Ulster Freedom Fighters:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_U...eedom_Fighters

    Ku Klux Klan:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

    Anti-Abortion murders:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

    Generally: Christianity and violence

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...tian_terrorism

    No, Basics, the evangelicals, loyalist protestants are not better than Rome or Islam.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; July 11, 2022 at 05:15 AM.
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  14. #134
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Dear friends and enemies alike,

    There is nowhere in Scripture that Jesus Christ commands His people to kill. So, the answer to all your statements about what happened way back then is that these men were not Christians but in the case of the Reformers they defended themselves and their families from Rome as well as Islam the two butcher brigades of the time. Has Rome or Islam changed since then? No, they both still incite their people to kill any that do not follow them. Northern Ireland and Israel are notable for that.
    As I recall you seem to feel God and Jesus are one right?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #135
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    conon394,

    It is written that Jesus said that He and the Father are One. He, Jesus, is the second Person of the Trinity. So Jesus did all that the Father asked of Him yet nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus Himself demanded the death of anyone, as that seems to be where you are going with this. Perhaps you however can point to a place in Scripture where it is said that He did?

    Morticia Iunia Bruti,

    My son's unit of the Gordon Highlanders landed the day that some 17 paratroopers were blown to smithereens by the IRA, the explosion being felt for miles. He had to live with the experience of being spat at, showered with piss and other objects when on patrol and on one occasion when leading a patrol he cocked his weapon when confronted by a mob something he was reprimanded for. All this because the Roman Catholic minority in the six counties wouldn't accept being attached to Britain. Did Rome do anything to stop the killing by its people? No, in many cases priests were found to be involved and known to be involved one way or another. So much for loving your enemies. Coming from Glasgow, a city that has a large Irish Catholic minority, I don't remember any Catholics being murdered because they were Catholic indeed I can say that a great many Catholics were in the British Army serving all around the world as well as Northern Ireland. So, when you pontificate about these things, tell me what was the religion of any soldier who killed anyone during the troubles?

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    I did not have the time to read all posts but here is my point of view based on Prophet Muhamad's Achtiname.
    Islam -by its CREATOR- was a continueation of Jewdaism andChristianity as Prophet proclaimed that He Was The Last Prophet before the Apocalyps.
    That IS MORE obvius that put all Christian Churches, Monasteries , Mink Cells , Monks , Priests and geberally alla Christians UNDER HIS PROTECTION:
    The english translation is incomplete comparing to the Arabic and Greek texts that was originaly writen sealed by Prophet's palm and signed by his Son in Law and several generals.
    This is a letter which was issued by Mohammed, Ibn Abdullah, the Messenger, the Prophet, the Faithful, who is sent to all the people as a trust on the part of God to all His creatures, that they may have no plea against God hereafter. Verily God is Omnipotent, the Wise. This letter is directed to the embracers of Islam, as a covenant given to the followers of Jesus the Nazarene in the East and West, the far and near, the Arabs and foreigners, the known and the unknown.
    This letter contains the oath given unto them, and he who disobeys that which is therein will be considered a disbeliever and a transgressor to that whereunto he is commanded. He will be regarded as one who has corrupted the oath of God, disbelieved His Testament, rejected His Authority, despised His Religion, and made himself deserving of His Curse, whether he is a Sultan or any other believer of Islam. Whenever Christian monks, devotees and pilgrims gather together, whether in a mountain or valley, or den, or frequented place, or plain, or church, or in houses of worship, verily we are [at the] back of them and shall protect them, and their properties and their morals, by Myself, by My Friends and by My Assistants, for they are of My Subjects and under My Protection.
    I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.
    No one is allowed to plunder these Christians, or destroy or spoil any of their churches, or houses of worship, or take any of the things contained within these houses and bring it to the houses of Islam. And he who takes away anything therefrom, will be one who has corrupted the oath of God, and, in truth, disobeyed His Messenger.
    Jizya should not be put upon their judges, monks, and those whose occupation is the worship of God; nor is any other thing to be taken from them, whether it be a fine, a tax or any unjust right. Verily I shall keep their compact, wherever they may be, in the sea or on the land, in the East or West, in the North or South, for they are under My Protection and the testament of My Safety, against all things which they abhor.
    No taxes or tithes should be received from those who devote themselves to the worship of God in the mountains, or from those who cultivate the Holy Lands. No one has the right to interfere with their affairs, or bring any action against them. Verily this is for aught else and not for them; rather, in the seasons of crops, they should be given a Kadah for each Ardab of wheat (about five bushels and a half) as provision for them, and no one has the right to say to them 'this is too much', or ask them to pay any tax.
    As to those who possess properties, the wealthy and merchants, the poll-tax to be taken from them must not exceed twelve drachmas a head per year (i.e. about 200 modern day US dollars).
    They shall not be imposed upon by anyone to undertake a journey, or to be forced to go to wars or to carry arms; for the Muslims have to fight for them. Do no dispute or argue with them, but deal according to the verse recorded in the Quran, to wit: ‘Do not dispute or argue with the People of the Book but in that which is best’ [29:46]. Thus they will live favored and protected from everything which may offend them by the Callers to religion (Islam), wherever they may be and in any place they may dwell.
    Should any Christian woman be married to a Muslim, such marriage must not take place except after her consent, and she must not be prevented from going to her church for prayer. Their churches must be honored and they must not be withheld from building churches or repairing convents.
    They must not be forced to carry arms or stones; but the Muslims must protect them and defend them against others. It is positively incumbent upon every one of the follower of Islam not to contradict or disobey this oath until the Day of Resurrection and the end of the world.[3]
    The Greek text that also includes the names of generals that signed that Achtiname"
    Ἐν ὀνόματι τοῦ ἐλεήμονος καὶ φιλευσπλάγχνου Θεοῦ, ἐξ οὗ ἡ ἀντίληψις.

    Τὸ παρὸν εἶναι γράμμα τὸ ὁποῖον ἔγραψε ὁ Μωάμεθ, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἀμπντουλλάχ, ὁ Ἀπόστολος τοῦ Θεοῦ, πρὸς πάντας τοὺς ἀνθρώπους τῆς φυλῆς καὶ τῆς θρησκείας του, ὡς στερεὰ ὑποχρέωση ὑπὲρ τῆς φυλῆς τῶν Χριστιανῶν ὅπου καὶ ἂν εὑρίσκονται, στὴν Ἀνατολὴ ἢ στὴν Δύση, ἐγγὺς ἢ μακράν, ὁποιοιδήποτε καὶ ἂν εἶναι, ἢ ταπεινοί, ἔνδοξοι ἢ ἄσημοι. Τὸ Γράμμα τοῡτο ἔγραψεν ὡς Ἀχδναμέ, παραγγέλων οὕτως:

    1. Ὅποιος ἐκ τῆς φυλῆς μου ἢ τῆς θρησκείας μου ἤθελε τυχὸν παραβῇ τὸν ὅρκο καὶ τὴν ὑπόσχεση ποὺ περιλαμβάνονται στὴν παρούσα συμφωνία, παραβαίνει τὴν ὑπόσχεση τοῦ Θεοῦ, περιφρονεῖ τὴν θρησκεία του (μὴ γένοιτο, Θεέ!) καὶ καθίσταται ἄξιος τοῦ ἀναθέματος, εἴτε βασιλεὺς εἶναι ὁ τοιοῦτος παραβάτης, εἴτε πτωχὸς καὶ γενικῶς ὁποιοσδήποτε τῶν Μουσουλμάνων.
    2. Λοιπόν, ὅποτε κάποιος τῶν Μοναχῶν ἢ ἀσκητῶν προσφύγει γιὰ νὰ κατοικήσει σὲ ὄρος ἢ κορυφή, ἢ σπήλαιον, ἢ πεδιάδα, ἢ παραλία, ἢ ἄμμο, ἢ σὲ Μοναστήριον ἢ Ἐκκλησίαν, ἢ ἁπλῶς σὲ εὐκτήριο οἶκο, ἐγὼ θὰ εἶμαι ἐν τῷ μέσῳ αὐτῶν, προστάτης καὶ φύλακας αὐτῶν καὶ πάντων τῶν πραγμάτων τους, μὲ ὅλη τὴν ψυχή μου ἀμυνόμενος ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν, διότι εἶναι ὑποτελεῖς μου (ραγιᾶ) καὶ δικοί μου, καὶ ἐγὼ θέλω ἀποτρέψει ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν τὴν βλάβη τοῦ θανάτου.
    3. Διατάσσω καὶ ἀπαγορεύω νὰ ζητεῖται παρ᾿ αὐτῶν κεφαλικὸς φόρος (χαρὰτζ) ἢ ἄλλα νέα δοσίματα∙ βία καὶ δυναστεία κατ᾿ αὐτῶν δὲν ἐπιτρέπεται.
    4. Οὐδεὶς δικαιοῦται νὰ ἐπιβάλει σ᾿ αὐτοὺς νὰ ἀλλάξουν Ἐπίσκοπο ἀπὸ τὴν ἐπισκοπή του ἢ Ἡγούμενο, οὔτε νὰ ἐκβάλει Μοναχὸ ἀπὸ τὴν Μονὴ του, οὔτε Ἀσκητὴ ἀπὸ τὸ κελλί του.
    5. Οὐδεὶς νὰ παρακωλύει τοὺς περιοδεύοντες Μοναχοὺς ἀπὸ τὴν περιοδεία τους.
    6. Οὐδὲν τῶν ὑπαρχόντων (ὑλικῶν) τῶν Ἐκκλησιῶν αὐτῶν, Μοναστηρίων ἢ κελλίων νὰ ἀφαιρεθεῖ ποτὲ πρὸς οἰκοδομὴν Μεσδζὲδ (μουσουλμανικοῦ εὐκτηρίου οἴκου) ἢ οἰκίας Μουσουλμάνου.
    7. Ὅποιος ἤθελε πράξει κάτι ἀπὸ αὐτά, ὅσα ἀπαγόρευσα, θὰ εἶναι παραβάτης τοῦ ὁρισμοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ τῆς Διαθήκης (Ἀχδναμὲ) τοῦ Προφήτου αὐτοῦ.
    8. Νὰ μὴ ἐπιβαρύνωνται διὰ φόρων οἱ Κληρικοί, Ἐπίσκοποι, Ἡγούμενοι καὶ Μοναχοὶ καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ καὶ ὑποτακτικοὶ καὶ ὑπηρέτες, οἱ ἀφιερωμένοι στὴν θρησκεία τους, οὔτε νὰ ἐνοχλοῦνται ὅπου καὶ ἂν εὑρίσκωνται, στὴν ξηρὰ ἢ στὴν θάλασσα, κατ᾿ Ἀνατολὰς ἢ Δυσμάς, ἢ κατ᾿ Ἄρκτον ἢ Μεσημβρίαν. Ἐγὼ εἶμαι ὁ προστάτης καὶ φύλαξ τῆς ὑπάρξεως αὐτῶν ἀπὸ παντὸς ἀνιαροῦ, διότι πάντες οὗτοι καὶ πάντες οἱ περὶ αὐτοὺς εἶναι ὑποτελεῖς μου, καὶ πρέπει νὰ εἶναι ἀμέριμνοι κατὰ πάντα.
    9. Νὰ μὴ ζητηθοῦν φόροι ἀπὸ ἐκείνους ποὺ ἀσκητεύουν ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ στὰ ὄρη, οὔτε κεφαλικὸς φόρος, οὔτε δέκατον ἀπὸ τὰ εἰσοδήματά τους, διότι ἐργάζονται μόνον πρὸς ἐπάρκειαν τῆς ζωῆς τους.
    10. Ἐν καιρῷ σιτοδείας νὰ παρέχεται σ᾿ αὐτοὺς ἓν τέταρτον κιλοῦ ἀπὸ ἑκάστου ἀρδεπίου (μέτρου 100 περίπου ὀκάδων) πρὸς τροφήν των.
    11. Οἱ κληρικοὶ νὰ μὴ καλῶνται στὴν στρατολογία σὲ περίπτωση πολέμου, οὔτε νὰ καταβάλλουν φόρο κεφαλικὸ ἐπὶ τούτῳ.
    12. Ἀκόμη δὲ ἀπὸ τοὺς Χριστιανοὺς οἱ ἰθαγενεῖς, οἱ καταγινόμενοι σὲ ἐμπορίες καὶ κερδαίνοντες ἐξ αὐτῶν, νὰ μὴ καταβάλλουν κεφαλικὸ φόρο πλέον τῶν δώδεκα δραχμῶν.
    13. Πλὴν τοῦ κεφαλικοῦ φόρου νὰ μὴ ὑποχρεοῦνται σὲ ἄλλη πληρωμή, κατὰ τὸ πρόσταγμα τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ λέγοντος: «Μὴ ἐνοχλῆτε τοὺς σεβομένους τὰ παρὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ πεμφθέντα βιβλία, ἀλλὰ μεταχειρίζεσθε αὐτοὺς κατὰ τὸν ἀγαθώτερον τρόπον, καὶ ἐμποδίζετε ὅποιον ἐνοχλεῖ αὐτούς». Ὅπου καὶ ἂν εὑρίσκωνται καὶ ὅπου ἂν μεταβαίνουν, πρέπει νὰ φυλάσσωνται ὑπὸ τὴν πτέρυγα τῆς χάριτος, καὶ κάθε κακὸν νὰ ἀποτρέπεται ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν.
    14. Ἐὰν γυνὴ χριστιανὴ ὑπανδρευθῇ Μουσουλμᾶνον, οὗτος ὀφείλει νὰ κάμνει τὸ θέλημά της, μὴ παραβιάζοντας ἢ ἐμποδίζοντάς της ἀπὸ τὴν Ἐκκλησίαν τῆς θρησκείας της, καὶ μὴ ἀποτρέποντάς της ἀπὸ τῆς προσευχῆς της.
    15. Νὰ μὴν ἐμποδίζει κανεὶς τοὺς Χριστιανοὺς ἀπὸ τὴν ἀνακαίνιση τῶν Ἐκκλησιῶν τους, ἀλλὰ καὶ νὰ χορηγεῖται βοήθεια πρὸς τοῦτο.
    16. Ὅποιος παραβεῖ τὶς ἐντολὲς αὐτὲς καὶ ἐνεργεῖ ἐναντίον τους γίνεται βεβαίως παραβάτης τῆς διαθήκης τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἀποστόλου του, διότι τὸ Γράμμα τοῦτο δίδεται εἰς βοήθειαν τῶν Χριστιανῶν πρὸς ἐξάσκησιν τῆς θρησκείας τους καὶ ἐκπλήρωσιν τῆς χορηγημένης ὑποσχέσεως.
    17. Οὐδεὶς ποτὲ νὰ σηκώσει χεῖρα ὁπλισμένη κατὰ Χριστιανῶν, μάλιστα δὲ οἱ Μουσουλμάνοι ὀφείλουν νὰ ἀμύνωνται ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν.
    18. Ταῦτα διατάσσω διὰ τῆς Διαθήκης ταύτης (Ἀχδναμέ), οὐδεὶς δὲ πιστὸς νὰ τολμήσει νὰ πράξει τὸ ἀντίθετο, διότι θέλω νὰ τηρηθεῖ αὐτὴ ἐν ἰσχύι μέχρι συντελείας τοῦ κόσμου! Μάρτυρες τῆς Διαθήκης ταύτης τὴν ὁποία ἔγραψε ὁ Μωάμεθ, ὁ υἱὸς Ἀμπντουλλὰχ (ᾧ δώη ὁ Θεὸς εὐλογίαν καὶ εὐχήν), πρὸς πάντας τοὺς Χριστιανούς, καὶ ἐκτελέσεως τῶν ὑπεσχημένων ὑπογράφονται,

    Ἀλῆ μπὶν Ἂμπ οὐ Τάλεπ = Ali bin Abu Talep
    Ὀμὰρ μπὶν Χαττὰπ = Omar bin Hattap
    Ἄμπου Ντιλντὰρ μπὶν Ἐμποῦ Μπέκρ = Abu Ntiltar bin Ebu Bekr
    Ἀμπᾶς μπὶν Ἀμπτοὺλ Ματαλέμπ = Abbas bin Abdul Mataleb
    Ζιββὲρ μπὶν Ἀβρὰμ = Zibber bin Abram
    Σαὴτ μπὶν Μαὰτ = Saeet bin Maat
    Σαβὴτ μπὶν Νεφὶς = Sabeet bin Nefis
    Ἀμπου-Χανιφὲ μπὶν Ἀβὶδ = Abu -Hanife bin Abid
    Μοναδὲμ μπὶν Καρσῆ = Monadem bin Karsi
    Ἄμπντουλ Ἀζὶζ μπὶν Χασὰν =Abdul Aziz bin Hasan
    Ἀζὶβ μπὶν Γιασὶν = Azib bin Giasin
    Ἀμπου-Μπέκερ μπὶν Ἐμποῦ - Καάφε =Abu -Beker bin Ebu
    Ὀσμὰν μπὶν Γάφας = Osman bin Gafas
    Ἀβδουλλὰχ μπὶν Μεσσοὺδ -Abdulah bin Messud
    Φαζὲρ μπὶν Ἀμπᾶς =Fazer bin Abbas
    Ταλαὰν μπὶν Ἀβδουλλὰχ = Talaan bin Abdulah
    Σαὴτ μπὶν Ἀββὰτ -Saeet bin Abbat
    Ζέητ μπὶν Σαβὴτ Zeit bit Sabit
    Χασμὲρ μπὶν Ἀβὴδ = Hasmer bin Abid
    Χάτηθ μπὶν Σαβὴτ Hatith bin Sabit
    Ἀβδουλλὰχ μπὶν Ὀμὰρ. = Abdulah bin Omar
    Τὸ παρὸν ἔγραψεν ἰδιοχείρως ὁ Ἀλῆ μπὶν Ἂμπου Τάλεπ ( Ali bin Abu Taleb) ἐν τῷ Μεσδζὲτ τοῦ Προφήτου, τῷ δευτέρῳ ἔτει τῆς Ἐγίρας (in the 2nd year of Egira), τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τοῦ Μουχαρέμ (3rd day of Muhareb), ὁ δὲ προφήτης (ᾧ εἴη εἰρήνη) ἐπέθηκε τὸν τύπον τῆς τιμίας αὐτοῦ χειρός.
    So we assume that Muhamad saw Jesus as a Prophet before him and that is why Mother of Jesus is a Sacred Person in Islam as a Mother of a Prophet.
    Islam was a religion of tollerance. The word Jihad originally ment the strugle in with in a person wrong against right.
    Jihad changed its meaning after the messacres of the 1st Crusade Crusaders.
    Now someone asked "what Jesus realy sacrisficed if he knew that He could resurect"?
    IF you see Jesus life with cautius you will nottice that each event in His life from the childhood to Resuraction is an EXAMPLE.
    An example to humans...God in both Christianity and Islam is a God of Love and Forgiveness despite the fact we humans gave Him other meanings!
    So Jesus by his examples shows the path to every Human (not only Christian) how he can lead him self to salvation.
    The examples start from the END when Jesus forgives a criminal actually showing to us all that is NEVER TOO LATE to come to the right path.
    By His crusifiction and resurection shows to humans that carrying the burrdens of your life (your own Cross) the finall reward will be in Heavens.
    Comming back to Islam. In 638 AD the Son in Law of Prophet Muhamad conquers Jerusaleem. HIS 1st degree (Actiname) says that all Christians are under the judgement of the Patriarch of Jerusaleem either locals or pilgrims.
    Take a close look in the Holly Lands and Egypt. If Muslims wanted to destroy those Churches , Synagoges and Monasteries they had hundreds of years to do so. The only exaption are Turks as forme Christians that emprace ISLAM and they brike Prophet's Actiname and His Cusrse.
    What about today...Religions show only the path. Humans select witch path they will follow. So in centuries Religions transformed by greedy people as tools to make their plans reality. Christians killed millions of people worldwide but that does not mean tha Jesus said "KILL"! The same aply to Islam...Religion is a handy tool for political ambitions and that is why each Religion has so many Herecies! We can not blame a Religion because for example Protestants tought that God is a God of Punishment of Catholics said "yoy can buy your entrance to Heaven with gold"! The same aply to Islam. Many fanatics that have been tought wrong the Islam can not define the Religion its self. An example:
    Read Prophet's Actiname. "If a Muslim marries a Christian woman he must allow her to forfill her religion duties". In many Muslim societies Muslim women do not even that privelege the Prophet gives to another reloigion wives!
    Conclusion. Religions are a path of life. The way we see that path we can end up to an end dead or to salvation.
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; July 12, 2022 at 11:36 AM.
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  17. #137
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    It is written that Jesus said that He and the Father are One. He, Jesus, is the second Person of the Trinity. So Jesus did all that the Father asked of Him yet nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus Himself demanded the death of anyone, as that seems to be where you are going with this. Perhaps you however can point to a place in Scripture where it is said that He did?
    Point is as you see it God is Jesus and Jesus is God. Thus he did order a lot of death in the OT.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #138
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Names like Father , Son , Holly Spirrit are words inorder the human lomitedf mind can have only a glimps of God's Essense.
    A yound man on a beatch watching the sea when a Monk passed infront of him .
    The yound man asked the Monk "I believe the God is a God of love but why is He letting innocent people die"?
    The monk answered: "Is God's will for humans to burns the forrests, to allow architects to build houses that become ruins and kill people".
    The yound man replied" Then why God doesn't punish them and allow those innocent poeple to sufair and die"?
    The monk replied" God is an Architect, everything His does has in own purpose , when a human dies many thousands may be saved".
    The young man insisted " I can not undrerstand it".
    The Monk put our of his pocket a spoon and gave it to the young man. "Open a whole in the sand" , the youn man took the spoon and make a quite large whole and asked "is this enough" ?
    The Monk replied " Its perfect. Now take the spoon and put the entire sea in to that whole" !
    The yoing man was shocked" "THE entire sea? Its impossible" and the Monk replied then how do you expect to put Endless God in your tiny mind ? "God does not show Him Self to us, HE apears to us as far as our vessel can fill"...The Vessel is our Soul!
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  19. #139
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Point is as you see it God is Jesus and Jesus is God. Thus he did order a lot of death in the OT.
    conon394,

    And that's why God the Father sent Him into the world as a man that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish as is the price for sin but have everlasting life. Being called the second Adam but without sin as Adam was, He had the power in His blood to save whereas Adam didn't. So, was He responsible for death that came into the world? No, He wasn't but yes He was responsible for upholding the Law which demands death for sin brought about by Adam and Eve led on by Satan when in the garden. There isn't any other Way by which a sinner might be saved. When He does come back to judge all things it is written that " every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is God," the dead and the living.

  20. #140
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    And that's why God the Father sent Him into the world as a man that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish as is the price for sin but have everlasting life. Being called the second Adam but without sin as Adam was, He had the power in His blood to save whereas Adam didn't. So, was He responsible for death that came into the world? No, He wasn't but yes He was responsible for upholding the Law which demands death for sin brought about by Adam and Eve led on by Satan when in the garden. There isn't any other Way by which a sinner might be saved. When He does come back to judge all things it is written that " every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is God," the dead and the living.
    Sent Who? His "Child" a "Part" of Him ? What?
    You did not read my post. Thw worf Father ,Son , Holly Spirrit are Human words trying to describe what can not be decribed because humans need something that they can understand.
    Evne when Jesus tanks about His Father He talks about a part OF HIM to humans that need an example that they can understand.
    Continuing my last post what actually God sacrifised when He knew that He can resurect?
    By becoming a Human actually shows to Humans that He does not consider Humans as infarior race and to prove that He takes their form.
    Remember the meanings we have tought in Religion are human limited in essense words in order to have an idea what God may be.
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