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Thread: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

  1. #101

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    In trying to make your point you're admitting that Jesus is God so we must be getting somewhere at long last. He became a sinful man in my place on the cross meaning that whatever He suffered was for me, the punishment I deserve for my sin and did so for all that the Father by Grace had elected to be saved. So, in those hours on the cross He bore what I was due as well as the others of the elect. Those therefore that don't believe in His atonement will suffer much much more and not for a few hours of horror, rather an eternity of wrath for which there is no mercy. Therefore once again, how does a Muslim get saved from his sin?
    Saying that I'm admitting Jesus is God is a straw man argument that is simply not true. You are continuing to not address what is pointed at you. Repeating the same question that has been answered multiple times in this thread alone doesn't add much. Is faith in Jesus as God so weak that it can not be defended? I do understand the hardship of it. Yet, you are free to acknowledge the illogicality of what you're suggesting.
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  2. #102
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    That Jesus Christ is God was written of by the prophets and His disciples and believed by me because He alone turned my life around just as is written about them. He is going to be your Judge when He comes back and so Who else could be your Judge if He was not God? So, again I ask you how is it that someone who believes otherwise can be saved ?

  3. #103

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    That Jesus Christ is God was written of by the prophets and His disciples and believed by me because He alone turned my life around just as is written about them. He is going to be your Judge when He comes back and so Who else could be your Judge if He was not God? So, again I ask you how is it that someone who believes otherwise can be saved ?
    Should I take your refusal to acknowledge simple facts about Jesus' "sacrifice" as a proof of its lack of merit? This is such a fundamental issue yet you are running away from it.
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  4. #104
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Should I take your refusal to acknowledge simple facts about Jesus' "sacrifice" as a proof of its lack of merit? This is such a fundamental issue yet you are running away from it.
    PointOfViewGun,

    What are these facts that you dispute? I can assure you I am not running away from anything concerning Jesus Christ.

  5. #105

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    What are these facts that you dispute? I can assure you I am not running away from anything concerning Jesus Christ.
    Aaaaaand we're back to post #102...
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  6. #106
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    Islam accepts that Jesus was a prophet yet it doesn't accept what He said so how can He be a prophet of God and get it wrong? All the Bible's prophecies about Him have come true and the good news that He still saves people from their sin is still as viable as it was then.

  7. #107

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Islam accepts that Jesus was a prophet yet it doesn't accept what He said so how can He be a prophet of God and get it wrong? All the Bible's prophecies about Him have come true and the good news that He still saves people from their sin is still as viable as it was then.
    None of that have anything to do with post #102 which is what you asked about. Its amazing to see how a core tenet of Christianity can not be defended. However, Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet and what he said. It just doesn't accept your bible said he said. Big difference.
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  8. #108
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    So my friend, if what Jesus said and recorded by so many witnesses as is in the Bible wrong then where doees it say anywhere in any writings that He didn't say them? As for post 102, He knew from before the worlds were made that He was to be the Lamb of God sacrificed for the sins of men by becoming one Himself. Why did He become a man? He did so because the price God set for sinners to be saved was blood and He as a man had the blood to do it. His blood was so pure that even becoming sin, it was enough to cleanse those that He was a substitute for. So, how is it that some Muslims are saved and get into heaven yet others are not?

  9. #109

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,
    So my friend, if what Jesus said and recorded by so many witnesses as is in the Bible wrong then where doees it say anywhere in any writings that He didn't say them?
    Are we to ignore the fact that Christianity of today is a fabricated version of reality by a bunch of bishops and an emperor on occasion?


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As for post 102, He knew from before the worlds were made that He was to be the Lamb of God sacrificed for the sins of men by becoming one Himself. Why did He become a man? He did so because the price God set for sinners to be saved was blood and He as a man had the blood to do it. His blood was so pure that even becoming sin, it was enough to cleanse those that He was a substitute for. So, how is it that some Muslims are saved and get into heaven yet others are not?
    You're simply preaching senselessly in a way to avoid actually acknowledge simple facts about what we're discussing. This merely conveys to me that you yourself see that your position has no merit. So, let me try something even more basic than what we did before; can you define what a sacrifice is in simple terms?
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  10. #110
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    There is no doubt that certain systems call themselves Christian but the only way to be a Christian is to be born again of the Spirit of God which means that a lot of people thinking they are Christian will never see heaven.

    The simple facts are what Jesus actually preached when He said, " A man cannot enter heaven unless he is born again of the Spirit of God." Now if Jesus was just a prophet of God speaking for God then what He says must be true meaning that all else He said is also true especially as He is the Appointed One coming back to Judge the world.

    So that brings us to what a sacrifice actually is. Quote, " sacrifice
    noun: sacrifice; plural noun: sacrifices

    1.
    an act of slaughtering an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to a deity.
    "they offer sacrifices to the spirits"

    So why do peoples even today offer sacrifices to their deities? Because they have had it passed down that their deity demanded blood for their sin. The price for sin is blood but as is written the blood of bulls and goats does not take away that sin so what does? Only the blood of Jesus Christ sacrificed on a cross can defeat sin, why? Because His blood was sinless and being the Substitute for them that He died for it took away the condemnation forever their sin from the eyes of God the Father. It is written that God said that He never even knew them as being sinners such was the power of that blood.

    So, once again, how does a Muslim get into heaven if his or her sin is not paid for before they die?

  11. #111

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    There is no doubt that certain systems call themselves Christian but the only way to be a Christian is to be born again of the Spirit of God which means that a lot of people thinking they are Christian will never see heaven.

    The simple facts are what Jesus actually preached when He said, " A man cannot enter heaven unless he is born again of the Spirit of God." Now if Jesus was just a prophet of God speaking for God then what He says must be true meaning that all else He said is also true especially as He is the Appointed One coming back to Judge the world.
    This merely dances around the issue. You're confusing your own opinion as facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So that brings us to what a sacrifice actually is. Quote, " sacrifice
    noun: sacrifice; plural noun: sacrifices

    1.
    an act of slaughtering an animal or person or surrendering a possession as an offering to a deity.
    "they offer sacrifices to the spirits"
    So, what did Jesus sacrifice? Keep in mind that when we talk about sacrificing something we mean things we can not get back. What did Jesus sacrifice that he can't get back?
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  12. #112
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    He sacrificed His manhood shedding His blood that day. Notice that when He was risen and appeared to the disciples His appearance was slightly different but His voice was what was immediately recognised. So, when He does come back to Judge you, you will see Him in His Godly appearance yet retaining the scars where He was pinned to the cross and then as is written, " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." No need for Him to be a man again nor for us who are saved to be men and women again as we all will be given new bodies in which there is no more sin. That is what is written so tell me please, how does a Muslim get into heaven?

  13. #113

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    He sacrificed His manhood shedding His blood that day.
    Is Jesus not capable of getting his manhood back?
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  14. #114
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Is Jesus not capable of getting his manhood back?
    PointOfViewGun,

    Yes, He is quite capable of doing that but what would be the sense there? When we get past the judgement there won't be an earth as we know it now for it will be an heavenly place where believers having new bodies will be able to live with Him. In other words instead of Him becoming like us, we will in fact become like Him. Unbelievers face a different situation because as we can read they will be in hell under relentless pressure from burning Light for eternity being looked over by the Lord Jesus Christ, Him I believe being that Light.

    As men and women believers will be as the angels what happens to female Muslims in your paradise when they see their menfolk surrounded by virgins? I don't think that is a very merciful situation to be in, do you? So, once again I have to ask, " How does a Muslim get into heaven, male or female?"

  15. #115

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Yes, He is quite capable of doing that but what would be the sense there?
    I understand that the problem here is a fundamental lack of understanding concerning what a sacrifice is. Given that Jesus had the power to stop the crucifixion at any moment and he has the power to get his manhood back, what did he sacrifice? What did he give that he can not get back? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
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  16. #116
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I understand that the problem here is a fundamental lack of understanding concerning what a sacrifice is. Given that Jesus had the power to stop the crucifixion at any moment and he has the power to get his manhood back, what did he sacrifice? What did he give that he can not get back? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
    PointOfViewGun,

    It is written, Jesus Christ is the only way to get into heaven and that by believing what He did at the cross for sinners like you and me. As a sinner nothing I could do or say could get me entry as is the case with you unless blood was shed on our behalf. In other words our blood is not good enough why? Because it is sinner's blood and so the shed blood has to be pure, sinless. That's why even the animal sacrifices had to be unblemished in every aspect to be the right sacrifice. Jesus Christ had that sinless blood and so was the perfect sacrifice to cover the sins both you and I were guilty of. So, by believing in Him and therefore being born again of the Spirit of God you are saved.

    So, Jesus Christ being God has no need to become a man again because as a man He accomplished all that the Godhead required to save His elect. When He comes back to judge you, He will be as He is now, your God and Judge.

    Finally why should a man or woman become a Muslim if you cannot tell them how they get into heaven, something you keep avoiding?

  17. #117

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    It is written, Jesus Christ is the only way to get into heaven and that by believing what He did at the cross for sinners like you and me. As a sinner nothing I could do or say could get me entry as is the case with you unless blood was shed on our behalf. In other words our blood is not good enough why? Because it is sinner's blood and so the shed blood has to be pure, sinless. That's why even the animal sacrifices had to be unblemished in every aspect to be the right sacrifice. Jesus Christ had that sinless blood and so was the perfect sacrifice to cover the sins both you and I were guilty of. So, by believing in Him and therefore being born again of the Spirit of God you are saved.

    So, Jesus Christ being God has no need to become a man again because as a man He accomplished all that the Godhead required to save His elect. When He comes back to judge you, He will be as He is now, your God and Judge.
    This doesn't answer my question but merely repeats what you keep preaching earlier. Given that Jesus had the power to stop the crucifixion at any moment and he has the power to get his manhood back, what did he sacrifice? What did he give that he can not get back?


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Finally why should a man or woman become a Muslim if you cannot tell them how they get into heaven, something you keep avoiding?
    Already answered this a few times. You ignored them. Yet, you keep asking the same thing. It's likely to shift attention from your failure to come to terms with Jesus' non-sacrifice.
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  18. #118
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    Well ole son, when Jesus Christ comes back and you have to bow the knee to admit that He is God, your denial of His purpose in being crucified will slap you on the face when He sends you into hell. Why am I saying that? Because that is what is written about unbelievers.

    No, you have not answered my question on how a Muslim male or female gets into heaven so if you have and I have missed it, please remind me?

  19. #119

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Well ole son, when Jesus Christ comes back and you have to bow the knee to admit that He is God, your denial of His purpose in being crucified will slap you on the face when He sends you into hell. Why am I saying that? Because that is what is written about unbelievers.
    That doesn't answer my question. To the contrary, you seem to be trying to compensate the lack of merit of your position by throwing a threat at me. Such a core tenet should have been fairly easy to defend.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    No, you have not answered my question on how a Muslim male or female gets into heaven so if you have and I have missed it, please remind me?
    Posts #14, #28 and #54 touched that issue.
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  20. #120
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default The Islamic dilemma

    This thread is still about the claims stated in the Korans and how those very claims by themselves seems to create an absurd and unsustainable circumstance for Islam, once applied. Again, how does one deal with that circumstance? How does one solve the Islamic dilemma? Can one solve the Islamic dilemma? If not, how can one still believe in Islam then, despite it? As for the various details of Christianity, Judaism or any other movements – is ultimately secondary or outright irrelevant for this topic. Again, it is the claims made by the Korans that matter here, not what is claimed in the Torah or the gospel unless it is directly relevant to the outlined context somehow.

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Not worry to much since the first two books are filled with contradictions or parables/stories that contradict reality... so if you are a believer why worry about more?
    I suppose it is kind of an answer…

    So (you think that) the bible is so filled with fantasy fiction that it won’t matter how absurd the Korans gets, regardless. As in, if you are willing to believe the outrageous fiction of the bible you might as well believe the fiction of the Korans too. It is already so far from reality that another level of absurdity won’t matter anyways? Is that it? Does this mean that even if Korans seems to offer a blatantly absurd premise all on its own – even by bible standards - it does not matter, according to you? Like it’s all so fubar that another level of unreasonableness does not matter. This is your take? It strikes me as almost nihilistic…


    --------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I think OP does not present a "gotcha" at all, as it projects into the Torah doctrines not at all apparent unless you begin with the premise that protestant theology and edited scripture, as currently glossed, is The Truth. So I appreciate belief in Islam might be paradoxical for a Christian, but its hardly so for a Muslim.
    And I think that you should explain your case in full – if you want me and others to take these claims seriously - which I will, once you can present a solid, credible and convincing case for it all. Failing that, it is (personal) opinion and has as much value. That’s my take. Anyhow, you seemingly want to reject the Islamic dilemma altogether, but on what grounds, I wonder? Remember this is primarily about what the known Korans claims, and how that don’t seem to add up well with the known bibles (which it supposedly should do, according to the claims and premises of the Korans).


    --------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I take it you assume Muslims think that if you take a Sharpie and try to cross out words on a printed Quran you will get smiten? Or that the Gospel the Quran refers to is the Bible you can buy at Walmart?
    Relevance?


    --------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    The 'historical' development seems to be that the initial (ca. first three centuries or so of Islam) claim of biblical 'corruption' (tahrif) was in how Jews and Christians interpreted or applied their scripture (tahrif al-mana).
    That the text of the bible itself was corrupt (tahrif al-nass) started to be popularized in the 11th century AD with Ibn Hazm's polemics, presumably after Muslims became more familiar with what the bible actually said, and how the (apocryphal, non/extra-canonical) sources the koran drew from were not accepted.
    Thanks for that info & clarification… I owe you some rep…

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; July 07, 2022 at 01:25 AM. Reason: Commentary on moderation is off topic / please don’t post consecutively

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