Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

It is written that the Gospel is an offence to the unbeliever but nonetheless we are to preach it.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

It is written that the Gospel is an offence to the unbeliever but nonetheless we are to preach it.

Use of illogical and contradictory arguments is an offence to the mildly intelligent, yes. However, I'm not even sure if you're preaching the Gospel at all knowing that very little sourcing is done. The offense I saw was not about the content of the Gospel but your failure to provide it with a logical train of thought.

[Cyclops]

Since we're discussing resurrection, what happened to all the people who came back to life after Easter? Did they die again? That's seems a bit weird.

Adam and Eve did not lose immortality, that's against scripture and therefore (in Christian terms) heresy, a false teaching punishable by hell. According to the Bible, God made a garden on earth (this is the second creation, the one-day version of Genesis 2:5, not the six-days-and-a-rest-day version of Genesis 1), not in the heavens (there's more than one, remember, according to Scripture). Saying Eden was heaven is the strictest and most absolute form of heresy. It was a paradise, which means a garden. They were thrown out so they would not become like "us" that is God and some other unspecified divinity.

The entire rhetoric of "conquering death" is confusing. Jesus could not die if he was God. He wasn't the first to be resurrected (I think Elijah and Elisha also performed this miracle) and Lazarus is before Easter too. People still die despite Easter, so he didn't stop that. People still go to hell so he didn't stop that, and people were going to Heaven without hearing the gospel or getting baptised or following some protestant ritual so he didn't make a change there: in fact it seems like most people have an imposed waiting period now. I am not sure Jesus speaks of eternal punishment anywhere either, he speaks of a fire (the fire might be eternal) and Gehenna, but not a specific Hell. he promised eternal life, not death and then heaven, and he promised it on earth as it was in heaven. I am not seeing it.

Guys, please stop having the same off-topic discussion in four different threads simultaneously.

This thread stinks, Op is blatant bit of anti-Muslim trolling ([smugpepe] according to MY religion YOUR religion sux") and Basics derailing it is an improvement.
If someone keeps derailing threads maybe report them? I suppose am guilty of it at times but really in this sub forum its one guy who disregards the ToS.

[basics]

Cyclops,

Death is but the end of one journey and the beginning of another so no-one goes blank. The journey when called is of two destinies, heaven or hell and both are eternal. That certain graves opened and dead people walked was a sign to the then world that there would be a resurrection specifically for all the Jews who didn't believe that there would be one so did they die again is a question I cannot answer but have no doubts that we all will have a similar experience when Jesus returns to judge all things.

Nobody loses their immortality as I already implicated so that is quite correct. You are also correct in saying that the garden was quite separate from the rest of the world therefore I have never said it was heaven, rather a type and shadow of it. Elohim is the name of God and is a plural word thus signifying that He is a Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet One Being in three Persons.

Jesus Christ died as a man just as He lived as a man yet remained God the Son throughout it all. He became sin so that our sin could be taken on board Himself so that the Father's wrath could rightly fall on Him for us. This He accomplished and after three days was resurrected to appear before over four hundred people before being raised to Glory at the right hand of His Father. When He does return it will be to bring all things to a conclusion and to begin a new creation for all those that He died for, thus proving that He is God.

Regarding this thread, it is about Islam's contradiction of its own beliefs and my continuous question of how then does a Muslim get saved seems to me to be quite proper.

[Infidel144]

Regarding this thread, it is about Islam's contradiction of its own beliefs and my continuous question of how then does a Muslim get saved seems to me to be quite proper.

No. The thread is more specific than that. It is about what the author of the koran says about the bible in the koran, and how that presents a dilemma for muslims who claim the bible is corrupted.


The whole going to heaven is irrelevant to the topic. Probably 90% of the posts could be put in their own thread.
Looking at it, every post from #7 onward could be removed, with the exception of #42, which addresses the thread topic by giving some historical background to the topic raised by the OP.

[Cyclops]

...
Nobody loses their immortality ...
Jesus Christ died as a man just as He lived as a man yet remained God the Son throughout it all...

No one dies. Jesus died. Jesus did not die. This is gobbledygook.

[basics]

Cyclops,

Oh Jesus died alright just as recorded and was buried just as recorded and after three days was raised to life that being witnessed by over four hundred just as recorded so where is the gobbledygook in that?

[PointOfViewGun]

Jesus Christ died as a man just as He lived as a man yet remained God the Son throughout it all. He became sin so that our sin could be taken on board Himself so that the Father's wrath could rightly fall on Him for us. This He accomplished and after three days was resurrected to appear before over four hundred people before being raised to Glory at the right hand of His Father. When He does return it will be to bring all things to a conclusion and to begin a new creation for all those that He died for, thus proving that He is God.

Simply question; does Jesus have the power to come to life as a man again or not?

[basics]

Simply question; does Jesus have the power to come to life as a man again or not?

PointOfViewGun,

Of course He does have that power but the next time we see Him it will be as our God, our Judge so that a new creation will begin for all them that He died for.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

Of course He does have that power but the next time we see Him it will be as our God, our Judge so that a new creation will begin for all them that He died for.

So, Jesus giving his worldly presence for sins of human's cost him nothing? Correct?

[Cyclops]

Cyclops,

Oh Jesus died alright just as recorded and was buried just as recorded and after three days was raised to life that being witnessed by over four hundred just as recorded so where is the gobbledygook in that?

I have already explained this: where you claim he conquered death, but he died, and people still die, but he didn't die and you claim we are all immortal. This is not logical.

As for Paul's contention in 1 Corinthians, its "over 500" and even he admits many of the witnesses to Christ's return are now "asleep". Did even those who saw and touched the risen Jesus die? That's hardly a conquest of death. Even Jesus went back to heaven (which is what many dead people do). Looks a lot like Death was not defeated.

[basics]

So, Jesus giving his worldly presence for sins of human's cost him nothing? Correct?

PointOfViewGun,

As a man He suffered much pain before even being pinned to the cross and when that was done He suffered the full wrath of His Father for being our substitute on that cross. No-one can imagine the pain He suffered in those hours. It was an accumulation of wrath for all them that He stood in for and yet He could cry out, " Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." It cost Him more than you or I could bear.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

As a man He suffered much pain before even being pinned to the cross and when that was done He suffered the full wrath of His Father for being our substitute on that cross. No-one can imagine the pain He suffered in those hours. It was an accumulation of wrath for all them that He stood in for and yet He could cry out, " Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." It cost Him more than you or I could bear.

Yet, it was his choice to experience that pain and at every single instance of it he had the power to stop it. Correct?

[basics]

Yet, it was his choice to experience that pain and at every single instance of it he had the power to stop it. Correct?

Before the worlds were made Jesus was ordained to be the Lamb of God sacrificed before the world was therefore in obedience to His Father He did just that.

[PointOfViewGun]

Before the worlds were made Jesus was ordained to be the Lamb of God sacrificed before the world was therefore in obedience to His Father He did just that.

Jesus didn't have the power to stop the sacrifice?

[conon394]

Before the worlds were made Jesus was ordained to be the Lamb of God sacrificed before the world was therefore in obedience to His Father He did just that.

Kinda makes Luke 4:1-14 pointless than.

[basics]

Jesus didn't have the power to stop the sacrifice?

PointOfViewGun,

Oh He had the power all right but like any good son He was One with the Father in all Godly ways as are Fether, Son and Holy Spirit, the One Being with Three distinct Personalities.

conon394,

Luke 4:1-14 is all about Satan trying to get Jesus to disobey His Father which failed why? Satan knew what the purpose of the cross was and if he could derail it in any way that was his object, why? Because the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ would be his deathknell.

[PointOfViewGun]

PointOfViewGun,

Oh He had the power all right but like any good son He was One with the Father in all Godly ways as are Fether, Son and Holy Spirit, the One Being with Three distinct Personalities.

That brings us back to the fact that Jesus had control over his crucifixion. That fact nullifies the sacrifice aspect. It was his choice to let it happen. It didn't cost him anything as he had the power to get his worldly presence at any point in time.

[conon394]

PointOfViewGun,

Oh He had the power all right but like any good son He was One with the Father in all Godly ways as are Fether, Son and Holy Spirit, the One Being with Three distinct Personalities.

conon394,

Luke 4:1-14 is all about Satan trying to get Jesus to disobey His Father which failed why? Satan knew what the purpose of the cross was and if he could derail it in any way that was his object, why? Because the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ would be his deathknell.

I realize why the story exists but by your way of thinking per #98 it is a pointless. There was no temptation if the event was for ordained, in fact there was no sacrifice. Jesus is just god's automaton

[basics]

That brings us back to the fact that Jesus had control over his crucifixion. That fact nullifies the sacrifice aspect. It was his choice to let it happen. It didn't cost him anything as he had the power to get his worldly presence at any point in time.

PointOfViewGun,

In trying to make your point you're admitting that Jesus is God so we must be getting somewhere at long last. He became a sinful man in my place on the cross meaning that whatever He suffered was for me, the punishment I deserve for my sin and did so for all that the Father by Grace had elected to be saved. So, in those hours on the cross He bore what I was due as well as the others of the elect. Those therefore that don't believe in His atonement will suffer much much more and not for a few hours of horror, rather an eternity of wrath for which there is no mercy. Therefore once again, how does a Muslim get saved from his sin?