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Thread: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

  1. #61
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Doesn't that mean death is my salvation and not punishment?
    PointOfViewGun,

    No, death is the pathway to hell unless you are cleansed of your sin before you die, why? Because no man can enter heaven unless he is born again of the Spirit of God before death comes. Heaven is for those who are alive with the Spirit in them whilst those who do not have the Spirit will endure endless torment.

  2. #62

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Yes if you are born again otherwise sorry to say no.
    But I would still die if I'm born again, wouldn't I?


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    No, death is the pathway to hell unless you are cleansed of your sin before you die, why? Because no man can enter heaven unless he is born again of the Spirit of God before death comes. Heaven is for those who are alive with the Spirit in them whilst those who do not have the Spirit will endure endless torment.
    Can I go to heaven without dying? No. So, death is also the path to heaven. It is my reward, not punishment.
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  3. #63
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    The point is that those born again of the Spirit of God are resurrected to go straight into heaven whereas those not born again go straight to hell.

  4. #64

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    The point is that those born again of the Spirit of God are resurrected to go straight into heaven whereas those not born again go straight to hell.
    Yet, they don't go straight to heaven or hell. They continue to live the remainder of their lives and still end up dying in the end. You are not born again and suddenly find yourself in heaven. The very fact that you're typing your posts to us not from heaven or hell shows that death remains. Hence, death is our reward to get us into heaven.
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  5. #65
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    When a person dies there is but two places they go, one, straight to hell, and two, if one is born again of the Spirit of God straight to heaven. So, when one is called by God to be reborn, one knows for sure that their sin is forgiven so at death their place in heaven is assured. Those who do not know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and are not born again of the Spirit of God are the ones going straight into hell. That is what is written and has been the case since the very beginning.

  6. #66

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    When a person dies there is but two places they go, one, straight to hell, and two, if one is born again of the Spirit of God straight to heaven. So, when one is called by God to be reborn, one knows for sure that their sin is forgiven so at death their place in heaven is assured. Those who do not know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and are not born again of the Spirit of God are the ones going straight into hell. That is what is written and has been the case since the very beginning.
    So death is not the punishment but the path to salvation or damnation with respect to the nature of one. You claimed earlier that death was punishment. You understand how you're contradicting yourself? It's really simple.
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  7. #67
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    I suppose it follows from assuming that there was no death in the Garden. If you assume that is true than I suppose its part of Adams's original and via Augustine something everyone is born with if that is your interpretation.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #68
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So death is not the punishment but the path to salvation or damnation with respect to the nature of one. You claimed earlier that death was punishment. You understand how you're contradicting yourself? It's really simple.
    PointOfViewGun,

    Death is the punishment given to all mankind who by their nature are sinners and we all have been sinners since the fall of Adam and Eve. If we didn't have a Saviour we would all perish in hell from the moment we died. So, how do we get rid of our sin to be able to enter heaven given that God put the curse of sin on all creation? Where do we find that Saviour Who can save us from our sin? Remember it has to be done before we die and only God had the answer to that and so it is written, " That God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." That Son begotten to be a man, born of a woman and called Jesus Christ is that Saviour. As a man He died on a cross as the substitute for all sinners who would believe on Him that being a gift from God itself. He now awaits His time to come back to judge the world and if so He is God the Son.

  9. #69

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Death is the punishment given to all mankind who by their nature are sinners and we all have been sinners since the fall of Adam and Eve. If we didn't have a Saviour we would all perish in hell from the moment we died. So, how do we get rid of our sin to be able to enter heaven given that God put the curse of sin on all creation? Where do we find that Saviour Who can save us from our sin? Remember it has to be done before we die and only God had the answer to that and so it is written, " That God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." That Son begotten to be a man, born of a woman and called Jesus Christ is that Saviour. As a man He died on a cross as the substitute for all sinners who would believe on Him that being a gift from God itself. He now awaits His time to come back to judge the world and if so He is God the Son.
    You're merely going in circles to repeat a dogma. None of it actually address what I point out.
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  10. #70
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Death is the punishment given to all mankind who by their nature are sinners and we all have been sinners since the fall of Adam and Eve.
    Augustine's views not found in the OT.

    given that God put the curse of sin on all creation?
    Again Augustine not the OT.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #71
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    conon394,

    It has nothing to do with Augustine rather what is written that being that the garden was a separate entity to the rest of the planet. If not why were they put out? We read that all that was in the garden was good yet when out in the world the rest was not, why?

  12. #72
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    It has nothing to do with Augustine rather what is written that being that the garden was a separate entity to the rest of the planet. If not why were they put out? We read that all that was in the garden was good yet when out in the world the rest was not, why?
    You have actually read the OT - sometimes I have doubts.

    1:9-1:31 Where God surveys all of his creation and we are assured 6 times it was all good.

    Aside of course we jarringly proceed to a second different creation story about man starting chapter 2 ff. But if we stick with 1:27-28 God made them plural mankind and indicates they should multiply.

    the garden was a separate entity to the rest of the planet
    Noting in the text indicates that. The very fact that it is attached by the Euphrates to the world is sufficient to contradict you.

    We read that all that was in the garden was good yet when out in the world the rest was not, why?
    That is not in the text and in fact Havilah was good

    If not why were they put out?
    "22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

    For the specific fear of another transgression in the Garden. Apparently God being unable to get rid of the tree of life with round up - or rather an echo of a polytheistic religion.
    Last edited by conon394; June 16, 2022 at 05:17 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #73
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    conon394,

    All was good until Adam and Eve disbelieved and therefore disobeyed God and so they were cast out to where? Why into the world on which the curse had been placed never allowing anyone back. After a while it was rermoved completely leaving all creation at odds with each other. That's the same world we live in today.

  14. #74
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    All was good until Adam and Eve disbelieved and therefore disobeyed God and so they were cast out to where? Why into the world on which the curse had been placed
    Nothing in the OT supports that assertion

    After a while it was rermoved completely leaving all creation at odds with each other. That's the same world we live in today.
    Nothing in the OT supports that assertion
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #75
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    conon394,

    Then why was the garden made in the first place? Why were Adam and Eve not allowed back into it? Why was it removed completely from the rest of the world after the fall? And, where did all the weeds and disease come from that they now had to contend with if in the garden there weren't any of those?

  16. #76
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Then why was the garden made in the first place?
    Obviously the text provides no particular answer just as it provides no particular reason why god apparently got tired of sitting about in the dark and just chilling with the unexplained 'us' of 3:22

    Why were Adam and Eve not allowed back into it?
    It is explicitly stated and I've cited it already 3:22-3:24

    Why was it removed completely from the rest of the world after the fall?
    It is not removed it is put under guard.

    And, where did all the weeds and disease come from that they now had to contend with if in the garden there weren't any of those?
    According to you weeds come from god everything was made they way it was supposed to be from the beginning right? And nothing wrong with a plant we call a weed. Weeds are plants growing where somebody does not want them to grow (*). Disease well if you are the kind of person who writes iron age creation stories certainly not from tiny biological creatures so gotta be wrath of god go pray or follow the laws better. Punishment from god existed in the garden why should it not exist outside.

    * If I want a nice pure Kentucky blue grass front lawn than a bunch of dandelions are weeds if I want them (the latter) for a salad or flavored wine thay are a crop. Tall bunch grass next to my house is a decorative bit of landscaping, in my pasture its a weed seeing as outside of my Mustang the more shall we say refined horses will not graze on it - so weed. The chives I have are too old they have gone to early flowering and also go right to tough and woody from the get go. They are realistically a perennial weed right now since they are not much use but say tossing some in the sock pot. But the honey bees do adore them so I let them stay but since I do not keep bees and if I really needed a working herb garden they would be a weed.
    Last edited by conon394; June 19, 2022 at 12:55 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #77

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Guys, please stop having the same off-topic discussion in four different threads simultaneously.
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    Exarch, Coughdrop addict

  18. #78
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Its hard to since basics comes back around to the same dogma and asserts it no matter the OP.

    But I not really caring to much because the OP is weak if you deep dive into the any of religions based off the OT you can argue based of translation, text included or excluded that somebody is either flat out dealing contradictory stuff or interpreting away what they want or interpreting what they want. This be than be called the Calvinist dilemma the Orthodox Dilemma the Roman Catholic Dilemma and it be about the same.
    Last edited by conon394; June 20, 2022 at 09:25 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #79
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Conon394,

    Surprisingly yesterday's visitor to our church was a leader of The Word for the World which is a team who translate God's word into the languages of peoples who do not know of the Bible. They believe like me that the Bible is the inspired word of God and so translation is of the top priority if people are to live Godly lives. So, if I am to be condemned for believing what I have learned I stand alongside many who received the same treatment going all the way back to the very disciples of Christ Jesus themselves. It is only by the Grace of God that my end has not yet come but come it will and I am ready whatever it might be.

  20. #80

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Conon394,

    Surprisingly yesterday's visitor to our church was a leader of The Word for the World which is a team who translate God's word into the languages of peoples who do not know of the Bible. They believe like me that the Bible is the inspired word of God and so translation is of the top priority if people are to live Godly lives. So, if I am to be condemned for believing what I have learned I stand alongside many who received the same treatment going all the way back to the very disciples of Christ Jesus themselves. It is only by the Grace of God that my end has not yet come but come it will and I am ready whatever it might be.
    If you are condemned for anything its for failing to provide any logical train of thought. In fact, the logical discrepancies and the failure to address them is the weakest leg of the beliefs you're championing for here. You are driving people away from it.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

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