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Thread: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

  1. #41
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    If what I have written and what the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually says then how does a Muslim get into heaven?

  2. #42

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    If what I have written and what the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually says then how does a Muslim get into heaven?
    Already answered this. Also, conditions for a Muslim getting into heaven is not tied to what you have written.
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  3. #43
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    Then what are the conditions because if your answer is what I think it will be then one doesn't have to be a Muslim to achieve it?

  4. #44
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yeah, thats BS. The amount of logic jumps you need to utilize to keep that idea alive is monumental.
    Actually it is all very logical if you are open-minded about it.
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  5. #45

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Actually it is all very logical if you are open-minded about it.
    You're free to give it a go.
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  6. #46
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Actually it is all very logical if you are open-minded about it.
    Not sure what mean but the Calvinist logic to get to original sin and being reborn/elect is not
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #47
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    The origin of sin lies at the door of Adam and Eve because they disobeyed God. The origin of rebirth also lies in the same place that Adam and Eve were cast out from. What follows in the history of man is God continually warning people about their sin all through the Bible. So, what is illogical about that?

  8. #48

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The origin of sin lies at the door of Adam and Eve because they disobeyed God. The origin of rebirth also lies in the same place that Adam and Eve were cast out from. What follows in the history of man is God continually warning people about their sin all through the Bible. So, what is illogical about that?
    You can start with how that's not how logic works.
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  9. #49
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    Well, if that's not logical then tell me how a Muslim gets into heaven by your logic? How is your sin paid for?

  10. #50

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Well, if that's not logical then tell me how a Muslim gets into heaven by your logic? How is your sin paid for?
    Already answered that but I do find the mentality you're championing for to be quite problematic. Heaven is not a shopping mall. In Islam, sin is not a currency like you think it is. It can be judged and forgiven, not paid. Everyone is responsible for their own sins.
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  11. #51
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Already answered that but I do find the mentality you're championing for to be quite problematic. Heaven is not a shopping mall. In Islam, sin is not a currency like you think it is. It can be judged and forgiven, not paid. Everyone is responsible for their own sins.
    PointOfViewGun,

    The price for sin, any sin, is death, so how does a Muslim ever know that his or her sin is forgiven?

  12. #52

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    The price for sin, any sin, is death, so how does a Muslim ever know that his or her sin is forgiven?
    Price of sin is not death, not even in Christianity. You don't die because you commit sin. It's absurd to even suggest that.
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  13. #53
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    not even in Christianity
    Don't you think he means the original sin ideal. Adam would not have died had he not sinned. Add Paul/Augustine and you have original sin so we are all from birth sinners in the same way as Adam, so thus we die as well because of sin.
    Last edited by conon394; June 12, 2022 at 11:21 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #54

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Don't you thing he means the original sin ideal. Adam would not have died had he not sinned. Add Paul/Augustine and you have original sin so we are all from birth sinners in the same way as Adam, so thus we die as well because of sin.
    Then it would be still wrong to talk about sin in the general sense. The price of the sin could be death in that situation as we are talking about a very specific and single action that Adam and Eve have done.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  15. #55
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Well yes but you are still left with his view on original and that means death for us all. And even Jesus ain't going to save you from that you still gotta die. So apparently God can create a everlasting curse he cannot remove or chooses not to.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #56

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well yes but you are still left with his view on original and that means death for us all. And even Jesus ain't going to save you from that you still gotta die. So apparently God can create a everlasting curse he cannot remove or chooses not to.
    Then that leaves us with one question; since clearly we can not be saved from that sin, as we all die any way, what were we saved from?
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  17. #57
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Recall the whole world is fallen so you are saved in the after life only you are stuck in the fallen world till death. But also since there is no free will you are either predestined or not still not sure the prayers are supposed to do. But hey I am not a reborn protestant.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #58
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    But also since there is no free will you are either predestined or not still not sure the prayers are supposed to do.
    To Gods own amusement. If you believe the Reborn:

    For God's good pleasure to make Himself the Centre of our existence and our eventual destinies.
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  19. #59

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Recall the whole world is fallen so you are saved in the after life only you are stuck in the fallen world till death. But also since there is no free will you are either predestined or not still not sure the prayers are supposed to do. But hey I am not a reborn protestant.
    Doesn't that mean death is my salvation and not punishment?
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  20. #60
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Doesn't that mean death is my salvation and not punishment?
    Yes if you are born again otherwise sorry to say no.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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