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Thread: Islam and Christianity's views on Jesus Christ and salvation.

  1. #21
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The word sin does not appear in the narrative of the Eden story, but it seems to be a part of Paul's teaching, so while its not scripture, its "second generation" Christian doctrine.

    Likewise the notion of the trinity is a much later development and only theological gymnastics delivers hints of trinitarian thought in the Bible.

    There's a serious question as to whether the NT is scripture. One of the letters mentions "all scripture is inspired", but it is a work of dubious authorship, and in any case the scripture is speaks of has been known to the recipient since they were a child so it cannot be any of the New Testament. The Christian assertion that the new Testament is Scripture is not supported by the New Testament itself.

    I think OP does not present a "gotcha" at all, as it projects into the Torah doctrines not at all apparent unless you begin with the premise that protestant theology and edited scripture, as currently glossed, is The Truth. So I appreciate belief in Islam might be paradoxical for a Christian, but its hardly so for a Muslim.
    Good post. It is worthwhile to point out Christian is a bit a misnomer Paulian/Augustinian might the more proper term certainly for those in basics tradition of faith.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #22
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why would you think people would only pray to save their ass? It baffles me that you ask that question.
    PointOfViewGun,

    OK then why do you pray if your ass does not need saving?

  3. #23
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Good post. It is worthwhile to point out Christian is a bit a misnomer Paulian/Augustinian might the more proper term certainly for those in basics tradition of faith.
    Fair enough. I had a teacher who distinguished the (pre Easter) Jesus movement from the post east Christian movement, but the Pauline reform is a massive shift, and separates Jewish followers of Jesus from the Gentile followers of Christ (none of whom, AFAIK, ever met Jesus in the flesh, not even Paul).

    Probably you're correct and we should recognise not just the rabbi Jesus and his Jewish followers vs the Christians, but also the Jewish Christians (eg Ebionites and similar) from the Gentile Christians (increasingly gnostic and Hellenic influenced).

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    OK then why do you pray if your ass does not need saving?
    An insulting and arrogant question, a person's soul is not an ass. 1 Peter 5:5 "God resisteth the proud and giveth grace to the humble".
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #24
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Cyclops,

    Answering your last portion first please note that I was quoting what P.O.V.G. said about his own ass so if that's being proud I beg to differ.

    In answer or response to the first part did Paul not warn about following any person instead insisting that one should look to or follow only Jesus Christ. If one were to take all of Paul's writings out of the Bible would the message change? No, it wouldn't in any shape or form. Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the Gospel unto salvation and it applies to Jew and Gentile alike.

    Now as far as non Jewish followers are concerned it is believed that Mark's mother was not only one of His followers but a Gentile into the bargain. Then there are Cornelius and the Ethiopian Eunuch who not long after were converted. So, from the four Gospels we find two written by Gentiles and two by Jews, the double witness of God.

  5. #25

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,
    OK then why do you pray if your ass does not need saving?
    Why would you pray for an entity that created the entire universe you exist in? To thank for your existence, to acknowledge its supremeness, to ask for forgiveness for something you have done (as opposed to asking for forgiveness someone did thousands of years ago), to ask for good fortune, etc. The list goes on. It's no faith if all you see god as is a "get out of jail free for a crime you didn't commit" card giver.
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  6. #26
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    We are sinners not just because Adam and Eve sinned, and you know what happened to them, but because their sin was passed on to all their offspring who are also sinners as you admit. Therefore since your sin has to be paid for how do you pay the price of death to take your sin away from the eyes of God? No man can enter heaven with his or her sin still on them so where would God's mercy come from before death?

  7. #27

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    We are sinners not just because Adam and Eve sinned, and you know what happened to them, but because their sin was passed on to all their offspring who are also sinners as you admit. Therefore since your sin has to be paid for how do you pay the price of death to take your sin away from the eyes of God? No man can enter heaven with his or her sin still on them so where would God's mercy come from before death?
    Yet another logic jump. You continue to rely on original sin to keep your position alive. You're even lying about what I said as I never accepted the validity of the original sin concept. In fact I explicitly rejected it earlier. Why did you lie to make your faith valid?
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    Answering your last portion first please note that I was quoting what P.O.V.G. said about his own ass so if that's being proud I beg to differ.
    I apologise unreservedly. I misunderstood and its clear you meant no offence by that term.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yet another logic jump. You continue to rely on original sin to keep your position alive. You're even lying about what I said as I never accepted the validity of the original sin concept. In fact I explicitly rejected it earlier. Why did you lie to make your faith valid?
    PointOfViewGun,

    OK, where did sin come from? It had to originate smewhere but you won't accept that, why? Why ask for God to forgive you and be merciful to you if you don't believe in sin? Therefore in you saying that you pray to be forgiven for your sin among wanting other things surely that shows I am not lying, rather that you are lying to yourself about being a natural sinner and needing or hoping that when you die God will be merciful to you. If you do wrong that's a sin and entry to heaven is therefore denied so what is illogical about that especially as each time you pray you know that you have sinned? If you don't pay for your sins then who does pay for them?

  10. #30

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    OK, where did sin come from? It had to originate smewhere but you won't accept that, why? Why ask for God to forgive you and be merciful to you if you don't believe in sin? Therefore in you saying that you pray to be forgiven for your sin among wanting other things surely that shows I am not lying, rather that you are lying to yourself about being a natural sinner and needing or hoping that when you die God will be merciful to you. If you do wrong that's a sin and entry to heaven is therefore denied so what is illogical about that especially as each time you pray you know that you have sinned? If you don't pay for your sins then who does pay for them?
    Why would sin originate somewhere? There is no reason that it would. Each sin is tied to its own action and in turn tied to a specific person. Yet, you equate praying to god with asking forgiveness. That's a problematic belief. You lying about what I said was not related to praying for forgiveness. You're even lying about your lie now.
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  11. #31
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why would sin originate somewhere? There is no reason that it would. Each sin is tied to its own action and in turn tied to a specific person. Yet, you equate praying to god with asking forgiveness. That's a problematic belief. You lying about what I said was not related to praying for forgiveness. You're even lying about your lie now.
    You can win he is invested in Paul and than the Augustine refinement of Original Sin and its general inheritance to everything [Even though he admits he has not even read Augustine]. Also effectively there is no free will. and thus you end up at the Calavanist elect thing which makes being pious just a sort pretend show.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #32
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why would sin originate somewhere? There is no reason that it would. Each sin is tied to its own action and in turn tied to a specific person. Yet, you equate praying to god with asking forgiveness. That's a problematic belief. You lying about what I said was not related to praying for forgiveness. You're even lying about your lie now.
    PointOfViewGun,

    Well if one believes in evolution sin came by chance as did everything else but, according to God's word it came by the fall of Adam and Eve when in the garden meaning that's where it originated. It meant that sin became a part of the nature not just of man but all creation so where's the lie in that? So, a Muslim in prayer seeks God's appreciation or approval knows by his or her sin that he or she does wrong that is why they seek God's mercy therefore where is the lie in that? If by being good alone why pray at all?
    You say it is purely to give thanks then surely mercy is not required? Look, I don't need to lie nor am I trying to trip you up in any way, rather to point out that your sin has to be paid for and since death is the answer there can't be mercy after it. So, if God provides mercy before a sinner dies how do they know?

  13. #33

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Well if one believes in evolution sin came by chance as did everything else but, according to God's word it came by the fall of Adam and Eve when in the garden meaning that's where it originated. It meant that sin became a part of the nature not just of man but all creation so where's the lie in that? So, a Muslim in prayer seeks God's appreciation or approval knows by his or her sin that he or she does wrong that is why they seek God's mercy therefore where is the lie in that? If by being good alone why pray at all?
    You say it is purely to give thanks then surely mercy is not required? Look, I don't need to lie nor am I trying to trip you up in any way, rather to point out that your sin has to be paid for and since death is the answer there can't be mercy after it. So, if God provides mercy before a sinner dies how do they know?
    I don't need to take a side between evolution and god to assume sin came by one way or the other. That's yet another logic jump you utilize. Sigh... You keep trying to dance around the fact that you lied about what I said. I never said we are all sinners because sin was passed down from Adam and Eve to us. I didn't say praying is purely to give thanks either. Not sure what you're trying to argue at this point.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    Well. you did say that in your prayers forgiveness for your wrongs was included so where did I lie? So, if forgiveness and giving thanks are not what your prayers are about why do you pray?

  15. #35
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Well if one believes in evolution sin came by chance as did everything else but
    Why bring in evolution??? I dislike your use of sin because you are using that in a Paul/Augustine way. But in any case Free will if you can sin or not and than if you do you can use that same free will to pray forgiveness.

    according to God's word it came by the fall of Adam and Eve when in the garden meaning that's where it originated. It meant that sin became a part of the nature not just of man but all creation
    Not in the OT did god say that. More or less Augustine interpretation of Paul for that.
    Last edited by conon394; June 03, 2022 at 10:27 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #36

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Well. you did say that in your prayers forgiveness for your wrongs was included so where did I lie? So, if forgiveness and giving thanks are not what your prayers are about why do you pray?
    I already explained where you lied sufficiently. You keep talking about unrelated points and ask as if you I was referring to them. As I said, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue anymore.
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    I am not trying to argue rather ask the simple question of how a Muslim manages to get into heaven when he or she is a sinner? I questioned your reply and you accused me of lying so please explain where I lied?

  18. #38

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    I am not trying to argue rather ask the simple question of how a Muslim manages to get into heaven when he or she is a sinner? I questioned your reply and you accused me of lying so please explain where I lied?
    basics, this is really basic. I already pointed out where you lied immediately after you lied in my post #30. I also told you how a Muslim manages to get into heaven before.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the key to anyone getting to heaven and a person must be born again by the Spirit of God to enter. There is no other way.

  20. #40

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the key to anyone getting to heaven and a person must be born again by the Spirit of God to enter. There is no other way.
    Yeah, thats BS. The amount of logic jumps you need to utilize to keep that idea alive is monumental.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

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