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Thread: The Islamic dilemma.

  1. #1
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default The Islamic dilemma.

    Traditionally, most Muslims declare that the Bible has been corrupted, and that the Christian God is a false God. This mostly due to the fact that the Bible contradicts several core ideas in Islamic doctrine such as the oneness of God (the idea of the Trinity) and that Jesus never died on the cross (the idea of Jesus died on the cross) and so forth.

    All the same, the Koran(s) – the supreme book(s) of Islam - still commands Muslims to declare that their Islamic God, is the same God as the Christian have, and to this God they submit (sura 29:46). The Koran(s) also states that the Torah and gospel are revealed by the same God, as guidance for mankind. And those who disbelieve in these revelations (in the Torah and the gospel) will be severely punished by God (sura 3:3-4). The Koran further claims that Gods words can not be changed (sura 18:27), this while both the Torah and gospel are recognized as revealed by God as well. Implicitly that means that they can not be changed either (as they are then the words of God too). The Koran also claims that those (people) who do follow the words of God (in the Torah and the gospel) will be the successful/fortunate ones (sura 7:157). Furthermore, the Koran commands that the people of the gospel (Christians) should and must judge things by the gospel (sura 5:47) - otherwise they would be disobedient to God. This is further reinforced in sura 5:68 in which the Koran declares "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." Despite the fact that the Koran and Islam is in clear conflict with the gospel, as exemplified above.

    Once we apply the Koran(s) claims and commands together - we are ultimately forced conclude that Islam is false (because it contradicts the scriptures), if we judge things by the gospel, as instructed. The only other possible alternative here is then that the gospel is not the word of God and is thus false - in such a case, we are still forced to conclude Islam is false as it clearly affirms the authority of the same. This makes Islam an unsustainable and absurd proposition, and as a result it implodes (in terms of credibility). This sums up the circumstance of what has been called the “the Islamic dilemma” essentially. As, no matter what we do, we are forced to the conclusion that Islam is false, due to a series of claims and commands of the Koran (regarding the Torah and the gospel).


    • How does one deal with this absurd circumstance in Islam?
    • What would you do, facing this dilemma?

    The details and relevant passages (for the Islamic dilemma) are found in sura 29:46, 3:3-4, 18:27, 7:157, 5:47, 5:68 and 10:94.
    For excellent commentary and further explanation of the details of the Islamic dilemma, see video.




    Check it out and tell me what you think of this dilemma...

    - A
    Last edited by Abdlmecid I; May 19, 2022 at 04:28 AM. Reason: Updated.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Islamic Dilemma...

    David is a phenomenal evangelist.
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    Exarch, Coughdrop addict

  3. #3
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic Dilemma...

    Axalon,

    So, if the Gospel tells us all that it contains the power of God unto salvation and it does, don't hang around, grab a Bible and get reading.

  4. #4
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    You are missing the point here guys...

    What would you do if you have too face the Islamic dilemma? Just imagine if you have invested some 10,12 or even 15 years into Islam, studying the Koran(s), possibly even learnt some arabic and so forth. Then suddenly one day, you end up discovering the Islamic dilemma and you can not escape it. What would you do? How does one deal with that circumstance? Can one really continue to ride "the Islamic train" after it? Or is it "apostasy, here I come!" all the way? Well, what do you think? What would you do?


    - A
    --------------------
    (yes, David Wood, is brilliant at what he does, I agree)

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    • How does one deal with this absurd circumstance in Islam?
    • What would you do, facing this dilemma?
    Not worry to much since the first two books are filled with contradictions or parables/stories that contradict reality... so if you are a believer why worry about more?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    The Koran(s) also states that the Torah and gospel are revealed by the same God, as guidance for mankind. And those who disbelieve in these revelations (in the Torah and the gospel) will be severely punished by God (sura 3:3-4). The Koran further claims that Gods words can not be changed (sura 18:27), this while both the Torah and gospel are recognized as revealed by God as well. Implicitly that means that they can not be changed either (as they are then the words of God too).
    I take it you assume Muslims think that if you take a Sharpie and try to cross out words on a printed Quran you will get smiten? Or that the Gospel the Quran refers to is the Bible you can buy at Walmart?
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    If the Torah is the Law how does a Muslim get into paradise? The reason I ask this is because no man has ever kept it other than the God/man Jesus Christ and on Whom is the Gate to Heaven.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    If the Torah is the Law how does a Muslim get into paradise? The reason I ask this is because no man has ever kept it other than the God/man Jesus Christ and on Whom is the Gate to Heaven.
    What do you exactly mean by "if the Torah is the Law"?
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    What do you exactly mean by "if the Torah is the Law"?
    I assume he means if don't follow Paul's alterations than you have to default to just the OT. But if Paul can alter the law seems like alter changes are possible.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    They literally must be thinking when someone says god's words can not be altered they somehow mean that if you try to print or say something different you will be hit with a lightning...
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  11. #11
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What do you exactly mean by "if the Torah is the Law"?
    PointOfViewGun,

    I take it that you know the Law is what Moses brought down from the mountain known as the Ten Commandments so, since only Jesus ever fulfilled them how does a Muslim get into heaven? As Jesus is the One Who will come to judge all things how is He only a prophet when He Himself said that He is God? So, once more how does a Muslim get into heaven?

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    I take it that you know the Law is what Moses brought down from the mountain known as the Ten Commandments so, since only Jesus ever fulfilled them how does a Muslim get into heaven? As Jesus is the One Who will come to judge all things how is He only a prophet when He Himself said that He is God? So, once more how does a Muslim get into heaven?
    Do you understand the logic jumps you are utilizing there in your statements?
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  13. #13
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Do you understand the logic jumps you are utilizing there in your statements?
    PointOfViewGun,

    How then logically does a Muslim get into heaven?

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    How then logically does a Muslim get into heaven?
    By having faith and being a good person.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    Having faith in what though? Your prophet Jesus Who is my God and Saviour said that, " Only God is good." Therefore being a Prophet of God as well as being God how can His words be untrue? Before He said those words which were in answer to someone calling Him good He first said, " Why do you call Me good?" and then, " Only God is good." was in his manner also asking that person, " Do you believe then that I AM God?" Of course the man couldn't answer, why? Because he didn't have the faith to know and believe Who Jesus was. That Faith is God given and only God given.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Having faith in what though? Your prophet Jesus Who is my God and Saviour said that, " Only God is good." Therefore being a Prophet of God as well as being God how can His words be untrue? Before He said those words which were in answer to someone calling Him good He first said, " Why do you call Me good?" and then, " Only God is good." was in his manner also asking that person, " Do you believe then that I AM God?" Of course the man couldn't answer, why? Because he didn't have the faith to know and believe Who Jesus was. That Faith is God given and only God given.
    Once again, you are introducing a bunch of logic jumps. What you say has no coherent train of thought. It's a series of assertions held by your own assumptions. It's completely moot.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    PointOfViewGun,

    No, I am telling you what is written about saving Faith. If sin is punishable by death and we are all sinners how does a Muslim enter heaven if he or she dies in their sin? You see your problem is that you hope that God will have mercy on you at death whereas what is written tells us that that mercy must be applied before death and that through Jesus Christ.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    No, I am telling you what is written about saving Faith. If sin is punishable by death and we are all sinners how does a Muslim enter heaven if he or she dies in their sin? You see your problem is that you hope that God will have mercy on you at death whereas what is written tells us that that mercy must be applied before death and that through Jesus Christ.
    Whats written for you is not written for everybody. You rely on the concept of Original Sin which is primarily a Christian concept. It's a self contradictory concept.
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  19. #19
    Praeses
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Whats written for you is not written for everybody. You rely on the concept of Original Sin which is primarily a Christian concept. It's a self contradictory concept.
    The word sin does not appear in the narrative of the Eden story, but it seems to be a part of Paul's teaching, so while its not scripture, its "second generation" Christian doctrine.

    Likewise the notion of the trinity is a much later development and only theological gymnastics delivers hints of trinitarian thought in the Bible.

    There's a serious question as to whether the NT is scripture. One of the letters mentions "all scripture is inspired", but it is a work of dubious authorship, and in any case the scripture is speaks of has been known to the recipient since they were a child so it cannot be any of the New Testament. The Christian assertion that the new Testament is Scripture is not supported by the New Testament itself.

    I think OP does not present a "gotcha" at all, as it projects into the Torah doctrines not at all apparent unless you begin with the premise that protestant theology and edited scripture, as currently glossed, is The Truth. So I appreciate belief in Islam might be paradoxical for a Christian, but its hardly so for a Muslim.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  20. #20
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Whats written for you is not written for everybody. You rely on the concept of Original Sin which is primarily a Christian concept. It's a self contradictory concept.
    PointOfViewGun,

    Well ole fella, sin must have had an origin somewhere else mankind wouldn't do it, so where did it come from? Why are you on your knees so many times a day if you were not a sinner?

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