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Thread: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

  1. #1
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    If the Curia wants elections to start two weeks before the term is up, they will need to amend the constitution for that.
    Challenge accepted



    Article II. Elections

    For every election the Consul opens a thread for applications3 to the vacant position and another one for all questions and discussion4. The Administration may veto any applicant.

    Once applications are complete, the Consul opens a poll in the Curia Vote forum5. The member who receives the highest number of votes is elected to the position.6

    All elections must be completed before the current holder's term expires7.



    Article III. Resolutions

    Any member can propose a resolution for discussion by posting a thread in the Prothalamos.8

    Resolutions can be Amendments, making changes to this document9



    7 Elections may be prolonged after the current term expires in case of a lack of candidates or other events that reasonably prevent the Consul and the Censors from holding the elections in due time. In case of the latter the Consul must inform the Curia why the elections cannot be started/completed on time before the elections are due to start or, respectively, end.

    8 Any Prothalamos threads can be archived by the Consul if they are not posted in for twenty-eight days.

    9 The Consul may correct any spelling, grammatical, or formative errors in the Constitution or any Curial resolution. The details of any such changes must be recorded in the Amendments thread of the Tabularium.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; May 17, 2022 at 02:45 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    I am quite uninvolved in curia business lately, but perhaps it would be necessary to explain in more detail the need for the amendment?
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  3. #3
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    See the Consul Debate thread in the Curia. Basically Akar keeps holding all elections that involve him late, which means extra time in office. It's a matter of principle.
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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    "all elections involving him"

    Got any evidence for that?

    I create the election threads for each office position when their term ends, just as I've done for the past 3 years. Where is the evidence that I'm waiting to extend my time in office?

    The language of the amendment could use work but I would in theory support it.

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  5. #5
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Go look in the tabularium and see how all other Curators have started the elections before their term was up, not after. Your term was over two days ago and yet here you are still a Consul even though the constitution is very explicit about the conditions in which a Consul's term may be extended, namely when there are no other candidates.

    If that is not evidence I don't know what is. In fact right now you have been a combined 18 extra days in office, by my count at least - could be more - and if you win and do this again that will make it a full month in office without merit.

    Just because you did this for 3 years without getting caught does not make it right. You were repeatedly and explicitly told to stop in both previous terms by multiple citizens, including previous Curators.
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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Just because you did this for 3 years without getting caught does not make it right. You were repeatedly and explicitly told to stop in both previous terms by multiple citizens, including previous Curators.
    ????

    Source?

    Go look in the tabularium and see how all other Curators have started the elections before their term was up, not after. Your term was over two days ago and yet here you are still a Consul even though the constitution is very explicit about the conditions in which a Consul's term may be extended, namely when there are no other candidates.
    As you are making the claims the onus is on you to provide evidence - you realize that, right?

    By the way, your claim was that I am intentionally delaying only my election threads but creating other threads in a timely manner. Where is your evidence for this?

    Still waiting for some evidence.

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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    A VONC would be mandated to curtail Consular abuse of power. Given the way the election process has been slow-walked perhaps there is still time.

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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    ????

    Source?
    Seriously? You have the gall to deny this? Go check the last two pages of the Townhall to see a bunch of people telling you that in your previous term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post

    By the way, your claim was that I am intentionally delaying only my election threads but creating other threads in a timely manner. Where is your evidence for this?

    Still waiting for some evidence.
    We're not playing the strawman game Akar. Either discuss the amendment or not but please stop going off-topic and trying to derail the thread.
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    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    How is it a strawman when it's literally the explanation you gave for why this amendment is necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Basically Akar keeps holding all elections that involve him late,
    Are you going to provide evidence for that allegation?

    Either discuss the amendment or not but please stop going off-topic and trying to derail the thread.
    If the reason you claim this amendment is necessary is based off of a falsehood how is that not relevant?

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  10. #10
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not going crazy - I am crazy. I just go normal every now and then.
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Previous election started one day before your term expired.
    This election will conclude a couple of days after your term expires.

    It's rather simple - just because you are not obliged to hold election in a timely manner doesn't make it acceptable.

    An alternative would be to ask admins to step in and strip you of your rank the day after your term expires and conduct the election themselves - after all the length of the consul's term is clearly defined in the constitution. And as there is nothing in the constitution that specifies what happens in that case I guess nothing would stop them to do so.

    @Adrian - do oblige the consul and link him to the occasions you are mentioning. Maybe even add the above to your amendment?
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 17, 2022 at 10:46 PM.



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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Yeah I bet the admins would totally do that because someone put up an election thread a day later than you think it should be up.

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    Gigantus's Avatar I am not going crazy - I am crazy. I just go normal every now and then.
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Yeah I bet the admins would totally do that because someone put up an election thread a day later than you think it should be up.
    Nope, they would do it (they certainly can in every aspect) because the consul's term has expired without an elected successor in place. Nice obfuscation attempt, c+ for effort.

    And 'one day before expiry of term' certainly isn't 'one day late' - rather 10 days if my math holds. That's last election.
    This election the poll will start the day your term expires - that's 7 days.

    Just to clarify for you - it's not about when the election starts. It's about when it ends and the next consul is appointed\voted in.
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 18, 2022 at 12:50 AM.



  13. #13

    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Support.

    • Akar made Consul on 10/09/2021 - 4 Months - 10/01/2022 - Election thread should be up on 03/01/2022 - Actual date - 12/01/2022 (2 days after term expiry)
    • Akar reelected on 15/01/2021 - 4 months - 15/05/2022 - Election thread should be up on 08/05/2022 - Actual date - 16/05/2022 (1 day after term expiry)

    Correct me if I'm incorrect here. Anyways, I don't see much of an issue but with the recent ongoings Consul should've made sure he didn't overlook the due election dates. Greg did mention:
    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    I vote for an immediate VONC due to the delay of this election.
    in previous election, although it seems like a mild jokish reminder.

    @Adrian: What's the 3 year thing you talking about? I don't understand that. Before Akar, Commodus & Athelstan served as consul.

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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Support on 'personal research' and its own merits despite the presentation of the OP being lacking.

  15. #15
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Wouldn't it be also a good opportunity to also specify the duration of the application thread for elections? Unless I've missed it, I can't find it written officially.
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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    I could have sworn that the Constitution said how long applications last. I'll make a separate amendment once we have a Consul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishan View Post

    @Adrian: What's the 3 year thing you talking about? I don't understand that. Before Akar, Commodus & Athelstan served as consul.
    Akar claims he's been doing it the same way for 3 years. My point is that even if he did it does not mean it's acceptable.

    @Adrian - do oblige the consul and link him to the occasions you are mentioning. Maybe even add the above to your amendment?
    I would but it's not even worth the effort.
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  17. #17
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I could have sworn that the Constitution said how long applications last. I'll make a separate amendment once we have a Consul.
    (...)
    Fine with me.
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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    I don't think the text addresses what should happen in the case a VoNC brings the term of a Consul to an end. From that angle, it actually makes more sense to start up the election process when the term ends (for whatever reason).
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  19. #19
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    The constitution says this

    If the Consul is absent (has not logged into the site) for seven days without giving a notice of absence, is absent for more than fifteen days regardless of notice, resigns, or is subject to a successful Vote of No Confidence (VoNC), they are automatically removed from office along with any appointed censors. Any decisions of the office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. When such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the office is empty does not count towards the limit until a new Consul is elected. When the office of the Consul is empty, The Censors will organize the election of a new Consul, and assume day-to-day administration of the Curia.
    It's my understanding that the censors immediately organize an election. I can add a mention excluding VonC in there if you want.
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  20. #20
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Ammendment] Mandating election completion dates in order to curtai continuedl consular abuse of power

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I don't think the text addresses what should happen in the case a VoNC brings the term of a Consul to an end. From that angle, it actually makes more sense to start up the election process when the term ends (for whatever reason).
    I honestly can't see the need of it because the VoNC is a specific and unusual case which is already covered by the Constitution as mentionned by Sir Adrian.
    Rules should be set for general cases first and amended if needed for exceptions, not the other way around IMO.

    The Constitution also says:
    Consuls and Magistrates are elected for four months from the day of their election.
    Not 4 months plus a week. If I stick to the text, we're currently having a Consul election managed by a Consul who is not officially Consul anymore
    Yep that makes sens considering that, unlike Magistrates, it is also specified nowhere that the incumbent Consul remains in office at least until his successor has been elected.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 19, 2022 at 08:34 AM.
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