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Thread: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

  1. #21
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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Spoiler for Hurty words



    Toxic. Literally toxic. And if these numbers and the trend are remotely accurate, a potential threat to the human race itself. It’s time for mankind to declare our independence. “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
    I think I need a translation into Comprehensible.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  2. #22

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I think I need a translation into Comprehensible.
    It's a famous passage from the Declaration of Independence.



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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    It's a famous passage from the Declaration of Independence.
    Thanks for the trivia? Question remains what it means in the context it was quoted in.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Toxicity? Liberal elite? I don't get this.

    I follow breitbart daily, and there is constantly this argument that "the liberal rich elite is doing some conspiracies against the pure simple people like you".

    Who is doing what exactly? Then they put news about some random rich famous freaks who at some point said something ridiculous or did something ridiculous and point them as the "liberal elite".

    I am NOT American. What I see is a completely different thing. Aside from an exaggrated SJW hysteria (which somehow managed to come to my country, Turkey's right wing as well..like we are some developed country where rule of law dominates; it is now being SJW to defend minority rights and women's equality), all I see is a political structure that has organized around Republican party failing to produce any arguments for the future of the world. And thus, they degenerate the debate to populist-inflammatory rhetoric, ranging from fundamentalist Christian demands to white-supremacist fantasies, from the conspiracy crowds to contrarians who just wants to see "dead communists", cult followers of a "genius" 1231231D chess masters who reverse psychology the "elite" out of their positions to people who worship their gun collection and has no other thing in life...etc.

    None of the real issues faced by the globe, the humanity that can be presented by science is adequately adressed.
    Now I am not arguing that the Democrat Party establishment is doing a great job at keeping a steady course, but oh my the Republican structure is headed towars empowering some real crazy groups to hold on to some form of power as they become more and more irrelevant.

    That the academia and media is over-populated with liberals is a natural thing. Throughout history, vast majority of progressive figures who carried humanity forward was pretty much more "liberal" than their surrounding public. That the more you deal with the world of intellect, the more detached you become from the local taboos-habits the society you live in takes for granted.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  5. #25

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan
    Who is doing what exactly? Then they put news about some random rich famous freaks who at some point said something ridiculous or did something ridiculous and point them as the "liberal elite".
    Describing the liberal establishment in the US as an elite isn’t fantasy just because membership is not strictly defined per se, and calling it fantasy isn’t an argument against the information presented. Multiple sources and examples have been provided for context, including “definitive proof that an axis of the CIA, Big Tech and the DNC-allied wing of the corporate media spread an absolute lie in the weeks before the 2020 election” born out of the common interests of the liberal establishment, and used the latter’s collective dominance of American institutions to suppress and smear the truth as “disinformation.”

    An elite is a group within a population deemed superior to the rest. Even in this thread, we are told the interests of the liberal elite can’t be bad because they are often highly educated, well qualified, etc (elite), and the unwashed masses who don’t agree are just whiny and ignorant. The tautology is indicative of the way in which luxury beliefs function as status symbols.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 25, 2022 at 05:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    The rhetorical function of "Liberal Elite" goes beyond implying a "know it all" attitude. It also implies a minority imposing its norms upon the majority. The implication is that common people who espouse liberal thought are either knowing collaborators or brainwashed sheeple of "the elite". That makes it arrogant and condescending.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  7. #27

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    The rhetorical function of "Liberal Elite" goes beyond implying a "know it all" attitude. It also implies a minority imposing its norms upon the majority. The implication is that common people who espouse liberal thought are either knowing collaborators or brainwashed sheeple of "the elite". That makes it arrogant and condescending.
    That’s an awful lot of projection and I’m pretty sure bait too, but ironically, you’ve almost got it. If 62% of Americans are afraid to share their political views for fear of reprisal, 64% say the media favors Democrats over Republicans, 66% say the media favors opinion over fact, and over half are concerned the country is becoming too “politically correct,” that’s an indication “common people” are not the ones determining what is appropriate for public discourse.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    If “staunch liberals” are the only group that feels comfortable sharing, and 60% of highly educated Republicans compared to 25% of Democrats fear their jobs will be in jeopardy if they share their political views, that means the closer one travels to the upper classes, the more pressure there is to conform to liberal orthodoxy.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Therefore, it’s the liberal elite, not conservatives doing the “arrogant condescending” you mention. Instead of shooting the messenger, join the revolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    "common people" never were the ones determining what is appropriate.

    Their representatives were. And they have a long history of ignoring what is popular over what is advantageous. Either for the nation, their state, or for themselves.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Describing the liberal establishment in the US as an elite isn’t fantasy just because membership is not strictly defined per se, and calling it fantasy isn’t an argument against the information presented. Multiple sources and examples have been provided for context, including “definitive proof that an axis of the CIA, Big Tech and the DNC-allied wing of the corporate media spread an absolute lie in the weeks before the 2020 election” born out of the common interests of the liberal establishment, and used the latter’s collective dominance of American institutions to suppress and smear the truth as “disinformation.”
    I use the word liberal in a far more general context. You seem to be using it in the American Democrats vs Republicans context. From where I stand, if I put aside the latest Trump populist wave, both parties had been "liberal" structures. They both functioned within a liberal system. However recently, Republican party started to diverge from a pro-system party into a populist-nationalist movement, which is anti-system.

    Pretty much all American establishment had been dominated by "liberals" in that sense for at least a century.

    What you are saying is that CIA, Big Tech and other corporate media are part of the "Democrat Party".
    Which is likely also wrong but it is not suprising that all liberal forces within the American liberal establishment unite against the populist-nationalist movement. After all, it was USA that created this global liberal order in the post-WWII era.
    Saying CIA is dominated by "left" would be a crazy thing to say a few years ago for instance. American security establishment had always been dominated by Republicans and yet today we see the populist movement go so far with its conspiracies that even figures Mattis have been declared as liberal...which is actually normal. Because he is a "big picture liberal", in the sense that he is a person who endorses the century old global liberal USA. The problem is that the new populist movement is highly extremist and polarizing, planning to take the USA to a different, isolationist path where rule of law is eroded under authoritarian figure cults.

    An elite is a group within a population deemed superior to the rest. Even in this thread, we are told the interests of the liberal elite can’t be bad because they are often highly educated, well qualified, etc (elite), and the unwashed masses who don’t agree are just whiny and ignorant. The tautology is indicative of the way in which luxury beliefs function as status symbols.
    Again, I use the word "liberal" in a historical context. Not American Democrat Party vs Republican party context. This is a rather annoying point I come across with all Americans (and Canadians recently). I literally have to first let them understand that there is a world out there that is not America and that these concepts have a different structure that they are used in universally...but Americans seem to think that the whole world revolves around them and the whole left-right thing is about Republican Rednecks and Democrat SJWs.

    Its funny because I am a Turkish citizen and they tell me that Justin Tredau has brainwashed me and that librul media is poisoning my mind.....bruh, I do not even know what is on your TV..The populist movement seem to have indeed turned the average masses into drones. I am not saying those who vote Democrat are so much better than that, but yes, a larger portion of educated, critical people capable of talking in a civil manner by using common scientific terms based on their factual background vote for Democrats.

    You also have to keep in mind that the two-party system in USA leads to a weird bunching up of various coalitions into same structures. So in the case of USA, part of the mismatches of party allegiances stem from that.
    Last edited by dogukan; May 27, 2022 at 02:37 AM.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  10. #30

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    For one thing I would refer to the thread title. But anyway, seems like you concede the premise, you just don’t think it’s bad because the liberal elite are elite. Funny how we keep arriving there in this thread. “But Trump” isn’t exactly relevant given most Americans understand things are skewed to the left and are afraid to speak out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    For one thing I would refer to the thread title. But anyway, seems like you concede the premise, you just don’t think it’s bad because the liberal elite are elite. Funny how we keep arriving there in this thread.
    You keep arriving at that place because we're all describing the same correlation, but differing on what that correlation means, and whether it is causal, or even bad: That higher education tends to favour liberal thought outcomes.

    But we as a group haven't discerned whether it is a causal relationship, and other than speculatively, how/why that correlation might actually be bad.

    You are just going back to the same talking points, and rephrasing what we're saying so that you don't have to do add any more depth to your speculation.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  12. #32

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus
    But we as a group haven't discerned whether it is a causal relationship, and other than speculatively, how/why that correlation might actually be bad.

    You are just going back to the same talking points, and rephrasing what we're saying so that you don't have to do add any more depth to your speculation.
    We both know that’s not true, so the question is why you keep saying so in order to dismiss my position without addressing it. It should be very easy to debunk any part of what I’ve said if I’m basing it on specious sophistry, but as you said, you can’t. Whether liberals=more educated or more educated=liberals is a red herring you’re using to avoid my position and any value judgments I’ve made based on that position do not detract from it. For starters, most highly educated Republicans live in fear of expressing their views for fear of material punitive consequences, so your comment that “maybe liberals are just more enlightened” is exactly the sort of speculation you’re objecting to.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 26, 2022 at 06:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

  13. #33
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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    We both know that’s not true, so the question is why you keep saying so in order to dismiss my position without addressing it. It should be very easy to debunk any part of what I’ve said if I’m basing it on specious sophistry, but as you said, you can’t. If your only response is, “that’s just your opinion man,” you have no argument and no justification to dismiss what anyone has said on those grounds. “I’m not talking about the US and anyway liberals are smart so all good and btw have you seen Trump and his dummies” is indeed an iteration of an appeal to the dogmatic authority afforded by the elite status of liberal orthodoxy. It is not a justification of the view that liberal extremism is a good thing. Whether liberals=more educated or more educated=liberals is a red herring you’re using to avoid my position. For starters, most highly educated Republicans live in fear of expressing their views for fear of material punitive consequences, so your comment that “maybe liberals are just more enlightened” is exactly the sort of speculation you’re objecting to.
    My response is "that's just your opinion man" because as I keep saying... that's all you're presenting. Tha Librulz are smart and bad. Woe is me.

    "Whether liberals=more educated or more educated=liberals is a red herring you’re using to avoid my position"

    Then show us the evidence that more liberal educated people is bad for society. Without appeals to authority (polls). Maybe start with a few studies or something. I don't know. It's your story. Two pages of "This is bad" - but nothing but rhetorical argument to back it up. I don't think you've actually finished your OP yet, so we can't start the debate.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  14. #34

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus
    Tha Librulz are smart and bad. Woe is me.
    Then show us the evidence that more liberal educated people is bad for society.
    Why would I do that? You’ve deliberately mischaracterized my position, ignored the evidence presented and conceded you’re unable to address it. As for the rest:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.[1][2][3][4] It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".
    As I said, if this is all your argument consists of, I appreciate the assist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Why would I do that? You’ve deliberately mischaracterized my position, ignored the evidence presented and conceded you’re unable to address it. As for the rest:

    As I said, if this is all your argument consists of, I appreciate the assist.
    How exactly have i mischaracterised your position? I have suggested that you have presented a subjective opinion regarding a correlation. I haven't characterised it as anything other than that.

    Would you prefer me to just go "The librulz are bad" and we sing songs and laugh?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  16. #36

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Beware the rhetorical trap. Any value judgement (i.e. "X is bad") is subjective. No matter how much evidence is offered, the retreat into "that's just opinion" will always be available. Do not engage in this line of reasoning except to call it out.



  17. #37
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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Beware the rhetorical trap. Any value judgement (i.e. "X is bad") is subjective. No matter how much evidence is offered, the retreat into "that's just opinion" will always be available. Do not engage in this line of reasoning except to call it out.
    Oh cry me a river Cope.

    Value judgements without evidence are bad. You're not going to convince anyone to change their behaviour, or respond to a perceived issue, without a clear understanding of why said issue is an issue. In fact, you're likely to achieve the opposite. Telling people a situation is wrong, then not providing anything other than speculative opinion will entrench the difference.

    So as I repeat over and over... Yes, there is a correlation. But the OP claims the correlation is bad, but can't state why it's bad in any way other than rhetoric. I don't think it is bad, but I have nothing to debate against here other than subjectives. The OPer has been asked to show why it's bad by me and others, but OPer just falls back to twisting words to avoid giving further explanations.

    Thus this thread is just another anti-liberal rant thread and should probably be folded into the other.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  18. #38

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Beware the rhetorical trap. Any value judgement (i.e. "X is bad") is subjective. No matter how much evidence is offered, the retreat into "that's just opinion" will always be available. Do not engage in this line of reasoning except to call it out.
    Sealioning tactics in the context of this discussion are a low-risk way of dismissing opposing views while insisting they have no merit and must be shut down, consistent with the way luxury beliefs function.
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    The chief purpose of luxury beliefs is to indicate evidence of the believer’s social class and education. Only academics educated at elite institutions could have conjured up a coherent and reasonable-sounding argument for why parents should not be allowed to raise their kids, and should hold baby lotteries instead. When an affluent person advocates for drug legalization, or anti-vaccination policies, or open borders, or loose sexual norms, or uses the term “white privilege,” they are engaging in a status display. They are trying to tell you, “I am a member of the upper class.”

    The Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam at a Senate hearing said, “Rich kids and poor kids now grow up in separate Americas…Growing up with two parents is now unusual in the working class, while two-parent families are normal and becoming more common among the upper middle class.” Upper-class people, particularly in the 1960s, championed sexual freedom. Loose sexual norms spread throughout the rest of society. The upper class, though, still have intact families. They experiment in college and then settle down later. The families of the lower class fell apart. Today, the affluent are among the most likely to display the luxury belief that sexual freedom is great, though they are the most likely to get married and least likely to get divorced.
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    We need a crisper label for the problematic folk. I will not title them “Social Justice Warriors.” That, and other labels such as “the Woke Mob” are unsuitably dismissive. One of the key insights I hope to get across is that most of these people are not zealots. They are your neighbor, your friend, possibly even your offspring. They are friendly school principals, people who work quietly in publishing, lawyer pals. Heavy readers, good cooks, musicians. It’s just that sadly, what they become, solely on this narrow but impactful range of issues, is inquisitors.

    The author and essayist Joseph Bottum has found the proper term, and I will adopt it here: We will term these people The Elect. They do think of themselves as bearers of a wisdom, granted them for any number of reasons—a gift for empathy, life experience, maybe even intelligence. But they see themselves as having been chosen, as it were, by one or some of these factors, as understanding something most do not.

    “The Elect” is also good in implying a certain smugness, which is sadly accurate as a depiction. Of course, most of them will resist the charge. But its sitting in the air, in its irony, may also encourage them to resist the definition, which over time may condition at least some of them to temper the excesses of the philosophy, just as after the 1980s many started disidentifying from being “too PC.”

    Elect ideology affects people in degrees. There are especially abusive Elect ideologues. Some are comfortable ripping into people in person; more restrict the nastiness to social media. Other Elect do not go in for being mean, but are still comfortable with the imperatives, have founded their sociopolitical perspectives firmly upon them, and are hard-pressed to feel comfortable interacting socially with people in disagreement. They allow the openly abusive Elect to operate freely, seeing their conduct as a perhaps necessary unpleasantness in the goal of general enlightenment.

    I do not wish to imply that The Elect are all of the especially abusive type; the vast majority are not. The problem is the degree to which the perspective has come to influence so many less argumentative but equally devout people, whose increasing numbers and buzzwords have the effect of silencing those who see Elect philosophy as flawed but aren’t up for being mauled.

    The Elect are, in all of their diversity, sucking all the air out of the room. It must stop.
    Discussion of these harms, for example, threatens the luxury status of those beliefs and thus the social value of the belief signal, and so cannot be allowed except to shoot the messenger - as McWhorter says, to “suck the air out of the room.” The harms themselves can function as a de facto marker of status, and so are not a bad thing per se, at least to the upper class who enjoy the most associated benefits and the least costs.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 26, 2022 at 11:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

  19. #39
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    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    But what points are exactly being dismissed by this "liberal elite" in a toxic manner?

    From what I see, the Republican establishment is hiding behind the idea that there is massive idiotic "SJW", "woke" mob that dominates the American institutions, law and policies.

    Yes, there are retarded debates here and there, things like trans participation in women's sports etc have an absurdity which should be rationally debated. But when I follow the American "right media", all I see is that all democrats are turning everyone into trans communists trying to kill our babies...which is far from the truth. A majority of the high-rank American Democrat party politicians express rather reasonable opinions in a rather healthy way, whether they are up for debates or not.

    But the Republican media networks seem to rely on the idea that there is a hysterical, crazy, secret global elite linked (a classic of fascist movements since the 20th century) evil child-raping group, who's all policy suggestions are part of a crazy conspiracy to destroy Americans.

    I can easily back this up just by going through recent tweets of various Republican and Democrat senators.

    From what I can see, and I am not even American, I am an "outside" eye, the Republican establsihment is driving the US public sphere, the space for rational political debate into a crazy insult fest. To them, there are only traitors, enemies, godless communists and SJWs who are trying to destroy America. That is all they see. Which is again, not suprising, because less educated lower iq people do indeed tend to present more aggression. Aggression instaed of rational, compromising debate is a sign of lower iq and lower education, which is the opposite of what you learn in higher education. That does not mean all who go into higher education come out top notch rational figures, but at the very leasy, subjecting yourself to content from tons of authors who have used scientific method teaches you that you are not an all-knowing genius.


    So again, what exactly is your point in a few sentences? I still do not quite understand. It is normal for liberal, progressive folk who wants to change the world with new things for the better are liberals. That does not mean there aren't any well educated, smart conservatives.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  20. #40

    Default Re: The Toxicity of Luxury Beliefs and the Liberal Elite in 21st Century America

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan
    A majority of the high-rank American Democrat party politicians express rather reasonable opinions in a rather healthy way, whether they are up for debates or not.
    It still seems like you’re conceding the liberal elite as discussed in this thread is a reality, you just find their dominance preferable to what you consider to be the alternatives. That doesn’t really matter though. As evidenced above, most Americans agree the country has become too “politically correct.” We acknowledge and are upset by liberal dominance of a public discourse that is increasingly detached from fact to serve the interests of the liberal elite. Only hardcore liberals feel comfortable expressing their political views, and even most conservative members of the upper classes fear they could face material punishment if their views become public.

    That’s called tyranny: the arbitrary use of power and control over the American people by the liberal elite to serve its own interests at our expense. The toxic consequences of liberal tyranny have been discussed at length. We fought the mightiest empire in the world to end tyranny in this country. We fought each other to end the tyranny of the slaver class. I’m not going to bother explaining or debating with someone why tyranny is bad. That I’m even expected to do so at all just proves my point.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; May 27, 2022 at 04:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

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