NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

[dogukan]

ISIS literally cruised through Turkey for years while Turkey was arresting Kurds and sponsoring jihadi movements.
It is crazy how millions of people in Turkey cannot wrap their heads around taht. The hate for anything Kurdish is extremely blinding for the average citizen.

I understand lying about politics to replace one dogma with an other as you do here but to lie about what average Turkish citizen thinks of all Kurds in Sweden is quite laughable.

Meanwhile, back in reality, the Swedish government stayed in power thanks to a single vote after the elections in 2019. The owner of that vote is Amineh Kakabaveh, a member of the Swedish parliament and a former peshmerga. It is known that an agreement with Kakabaveh was reached with the current government that in exchange for his vote Sweden would work with and support YPG. As Turkey objects to PKK activities in Sweden Kakabaveh threatened the government with removing her support. She is also known for her efforts to remove PKK from EU's terror list.

I am well aware of that. I just fail to see what part of that is "terrorism".

[PointOfViewGun]

We have established no such thing. We've established that an operation that Turkey wasn't going to partake in directly was planned and canned before the Kurdish offensive began. It wasn't a Turkish proposal to move in, no Turkish forces were supposed to participate.
You saying you can't be bothered to find a source might as well be an admission that there isn't one.

It's not exactly a good idea to base your position on word play but sure. You do you.

ISIS literally cruised through Turkey for years while Turkey was arresting Kurds and sponsoring jihadi movements.
It is crazy how millions of people in Turkey cannot wrap their heads around taht. The hate for anything Kurdish is extremely blinding for the average citizen.

Continuing to lie about what the average Turk thinks I see. Actually, this is exactly the same blanket mentality you're accusing people here... In reality, the government never had a blanket hatred for Kurds while having blanket support for jihadists. It used both when it suited her. In fact, back in the early days of the Syrian civil war, ISIL and YPG fighters were getting treated next to each other in Turkish hospitals by the Syrian border when both were primarily targeting the Syrian government. Back then no one cared who was jihadist and who was PKK, including those two camps for each other. You can continue to champion for one dogma in place of an other all you like though. Carry on.

I am well aware of that. I just fail to see what part of that is "terrorism".

When you don't see militants getting trained in northern Syria or Iraq funded by money collected from PKK sympathizers in European countries to commit attacks against Turkish cities and civilians, sure, I'm confident you wouldn't see any terrorism in anything.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It's not exactly a good idea to base your position on word play but sure. You do you.

Isn't that like literally all you do?
And it's not wordplay. You claimed Turkey announced the invasion plan in early May, and that the plan was carried out after 6 months of the frontline between YPG and ISIS not moving. This is clearly false.

[dogukan]

Continuing to lie about what the average Turk thinks I see. Actually, this is exactly the same blanket mentality you're accusing people here... In reality, the government never had a blanket hatred for Kurds while having blanket support for jihadists. It used both when it suited her. In fact, back in the early days of the Syrian civil war, ISIL and YPG fighters were getting treated next to each other in Turkish hospitals by the Syrian border when both were primarily targeting the Syrian government. Back then no one cared who was jihadist and who was PKK, including those two camps for each other. You can continue to champion for one dogma in place of an other all you like though. Carry on.

I think unlike you, I live in Turkey? Aren't you living in the USA?
The lighter treatment of Kurds in 2014 was due to the peace process. I have told you many times. I was personally living at the border working with refugees. I personally know that Kurds were not allowed to return to fight against jihadis and tha tTurkey was doing everything to keep Kurds from linking up with the resistance as ISIS took over. They've had had secret "border crossing" missions to send people to fight in Kobane. I've personally witnessed many.

I am not going to bother to explain to you what I have seen, witnessed and heard from the locals during my presence there. I'll just leave it to the readers of the forum top judge for themselves. As a person who have almost accidentally boarded an ISIS bus headed for Tel Abyad fro Urfa terminal, I do not need to see much more about how Turkey treated Kurds vs Jihadis.

When you don't see militants getting trained in northern Syria or Iraq funded by money collected from PKK sympathizers in European countries to commit attacks against Turkish cities and civilians, sure, I'm confident you wouldn't see any terrorism in anything.

So lets say, PKK activities in Turkey are finished (a couple hundred remains no? - and most of the fighting is in Iraq now now?) and no one in PYD territory trains to operate in Turkey. Will you be okay with Rojava gaining official status then?

[PointOfViewGun]

I think unlike you, I live in Turkey? Aren't you living in the USA?
The lighter treatment of Kurds in 2014 was due to the peace process. I have told you many times. I was personally living at the border working with refugees. I personally know that Kurds were not allowed to return to fight against jihadis and tha tTurkey was doing everything to keep Kurds from linking up with the resistance as ISIS took over. They've had had secret "border crossing" missions to send people to fight in Kobane. I've personally witnessed many.

I am not going to bother to explain to you what I have seen, witnessed and heard from the locals during my presence there. I'll just leave it to the readers of the forum top judge for themselves. As a person who have almost accidentally boarded an ISIS bus headed for Tel Abyad fro Urfa terminal, I do not need to see much more about how Turkey treated Kurds vs Jihadis.

2014 was not the only time Turkish government cooperated with Kurdish groups. They have participated in the Kurdish civil war of Iraq in the 90s in support of one Kurdish group over an other. The economic development and cooperation with the post-2003 invasion with the northern Iraqi Kurds also preceded the "peace process" as we know. As a convenient get away you can try to everything to that all you want to make snow flakes out of Kurds. It's is quite apparent from your wide sweeping claims that defy the realty. What you claim to know is not corroborated. It's not a matter of having unlike thoughts. It's a matter of you trying to push blind propaganda that deals in absolutes.

So lets say, PKK activities in Turkey are finished (a couple hundred remains no? - and most of the fighting is in Iraq now now?) and no one in PYD territory trains to operate in Turkey. Will you be okay with Rojava gaining official status then?

How does recognition of north eastern Syria's political status under a Kurdish dominated administration relate to PKK funding, training, and terror activities?

[dogukan]

I am saying that will you be okay with a Kurdish political entity, that naturally also includes elements of the KCK ideology, IF PKK's armed activities in Turkey are over? Or at the very least, say, Turkey is given access to Rojava to ensure there is no training of PKK members to fight in Turkey. In that scenario, are you okay with the current statelet in Syria being recognized?

[Nebaki]

The opportunism of Turkey by now and the hate for any Kurdish political entity, now apparently also including citizens and PMs of a sovereign nation like Sweden hopefully communicates the worlds to the world about the mentality that dominates this country.

Would Sweden admit the Sami genocide? PMs of what? Loosing their coalition Partners if they would not support the so-called "Pro-Kurdish-Thing" and threated them loose their right to rule? Since when this is a important thing for the Swedish People? You know that i even mentioned in this Thread before that if Sweden does not need the Support of Turkey they do not need to join NATO since they would already getting the support from the other core Members of NATO with their Membership in the European Union. So if Turkey is such a bad Partner for you why would still Sweden bother to get Turkey as a Alliance Partner?

West seems to be threading carefully to not give Erdoğan any more reason to escalate a nationalist hysteria once again but I am glad they've come to the realization that appeasing this regime and its endless nationalist fantasies will solve nothing.

If you ask the average Turkish citizen now, they're claiming that Sweden is a global sponsor of terrorism and that they should not have given the "kurds" there citizenship..because they are all terrorists...somehow..for being Kurds who do not agree with Turkey's position on Kurd's status. So they are all PKK members who needs to be jailed.
This is coming from a global sponsor of jihadi movements btw. A state that sponsors-funds Islamism which breeds social conflict throughout the world and jihadism as a natural product. Yet, the world is supposed to worry about a Kurdish militant organization that simply demands the recognition of Kurds as a political entity within the countries they live in....

The rest of this post just literally is made to fit in there:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

Next time please use the right Thread for it

[Tureuki]

I am saying that will you be okay with a Kurdish political entity, that naturally also includes elements of the KCK ideology, IF PKK's armed activities in Turkey are over? Or at the very least, say, Turkey is given access to Rojava to ensure there is no training of PKK members to fight in Turkey. In that scenario, are you okay with the current statelet in Syria being recognized?

And they would just give up on their ambitions over Turkey? How can a political entity that embraces the KCK ideology stay neutral, even friendly towards Turkey? It is a core aspect of their ideology. PKK's activities would only cease as a result of a total collapse of their organization in Turkish soil through force, but if their ideology and membership live on right across the border, they will always look for another opportunity.

They will disregard that ideology, convince Turkey that they have no ambitions over Turkish soil, that is the only way they can hope to get a better treatment.

[Nebaki]

It is crazy how millions of people in Turkey cannot wrap their heads around taht. The hate for anything Kurdish is extremely blinding for the average citizen.

I am well aware of that. I just fail to see what part of that is "terrorism".

Let´s talk about this part "extremely blinding " and the part where you failed to consider this as terrorism.

Here we got how Swedish Citizen and of course being Ethnically too Swedish getting attacked by non-Swedish:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://twitter.com/hermes_z/status/1533777706432843776

I don´t think that Göteborg is located somewhere in Minor Asia or even Asia.

Nowadays on social media these hoax is spreading faster than the speed of sound. Opposition supporters jump on others, regardless of what happens, and they begin to spread Fake News. Opposing social media users are sharing blindly, regardless of where they came from or aren´t even reading the content. One of these is made by this Member of the Swedish Parlament - Amineh Kakabaveh - that Turkey demands the extradition of the Swedish parliamentarian of Kurdish origin on the grounds that she is a PKK member.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First of all, a small detail, she was born in Iran, not Turkey. Even if returned her country of origin is not Turkey. Kakabaveh was going to be expelled from the left party she was a member of in 2019 due to her "Islamic, anti-Islamic attitude", she resigned and remained independent. The Social Democrat-Green coalition, which has only 116 seats in Sweden's 349-member parliament, was given a vote of confidence on the condition of support to the Kurds in Syria and to the YPG.

Did Turkey demand the extradition of the deputy?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A Swedish parliamentarian of Iranian descent. She has been long known for her propaganda for the terrorist organization PKK and its extensions. She is wasting the worthless time of her worthless life for the release of Öcalan and his removal from the PKK's terrorist organization list. She first entered politics within the left-wing party in Sweden, but was expelled from the party for sharing fake news and disinformation. Afterwards, She continues his duty as an independent deputy in the Swedish parliament and is currently struggling to prevent Sweden from joining NATO.



Because She knows that as soon as Turkey's demands are realized, many people who are supporters of the terrorist organization, especially herself, will be affected.

A few days ago, she announced that she withdrew her support due to Swedens decision to meet with Turkey, which hindered Sweden's NATO membership due to its politics regarding the PKK and its derivatives. This could mean the collapse of the already fragile coalition if it did not find other support before the September 2022 elections.

At that time, there was a news in Afton Bladet, one of Sweden's respected newspapers, that Turkey would demand the extradition of Kakabaveh, referring to the Turkish ambassador. Though the newspaper later shared that there might be a misunderstanding on social media, but of course a little to late - many "opposition groups" with Anti-Turkish Sentiment jumped on this news.

Literally they said this:

"President Tayyip Erdogan and his government wanted to extradite and prosecute even a Swedish MP, even though she was Kurdish, and even though she was of Iranian origin."


Swedish ambassador: "Out of question" I called Emre Yunt, the Turkish ambassador to Stockholm, whose name is mentioned in the news. It's out of the question, quite the opposite," he said.

The journalist asked such a question and he himself said that "this is not the case, the person is a Swedish citizen and a member of the Swedish parliament", and that such actions would require complex judicial processes.

Ambassador Yunt said, “Otherwise, we know that this deputy is working against Turkey and for the PKK-YPG, but we did not make such a request.” He also did not mention the name of the deputy, the questioner mentioned. It was possible to reach the ambassador by phone.

But didn´t we got even extra Thread for something like this? I would welcome anyone who has again some thoughts of spreading hoax about Turkey to share his "Mind" under this Topic:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

[PointOfViewGun]

Turkey clears way for Finland, Sweden to join NATO - Stoltenberg

Turkey has agreed to support Finland and Sweden's bids for NATO membership, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said on Tuesday.

Per the memorandum, Sweden and Finland will not support YPG/PYD, as well as FETÖ, and they will work to curb activities of PKK, as well as affiliated or inspired groups. The unofficial arms embargo on Turkey by these states also lifted. In turn, Turkey will support Sweden and Finland's application to NATO.

This came earlier than expected but made much more possible by recent actions of PKK in Sweden. At first, NATO secretary stated that Turkey's concerns were legitimate. Earlier this month, images of PKK/YPG flags and their leader Öcalan were projected onto a number of public buildings in Sweden. It showed how easily PKK members could roam in Sweden and ended up supporting Turkey's case.

[AqD]

Earlier this month, images of PKK/YPG flags and their leader Öcalan were projected onto a number of public buildings in Sweden. It showed how easily PKK members could roam in Sweden and ended up supporting Turkey's case.

How are they a threat to Turkey? They have no money, no weapon, being caged by welfare which prevents majority of them from joining real PKK in Turkey and more of an annoyance to other Swedish than Turks.

[PointOfViewGun]

How are they a threat to Turkey? They have no money, no weapon, being caged by welfare which prevents majority of them from joining real PKK in Turkey and more of an annoyance to other Swedish than Turks.

Scandinavian countries have always been a major source of funding and recruitment. Just because you see a few poor Kurds doesn't mean they don't get to freely roam in such countries and collect from the region. We had Swedish government recently directly promising funding for YPG as well.

[Pontifex Maximus]

God Emperor Trump was right again, as usual. Tell me, will Sweden and Finland pay their fair share? It is about time Europe pony up to actually committing to their promises, or be denied the umbrella protection and benevolence of the United States. Too bad it took a half baked invasion of an Eastern European backwater to remind Europe they owe us their undying loyalty for their own domestic freedom and security. At this point we should be taxing Europe for the privilege of their own security, in all honesty.

[Roma_Victrix]

God Emperor Trump was right again, as usual. Tell me, will Sweden and Finland pay their fair share? It is about time Europe pony up to actually committing to their promises, or be denied the umbrella protection and benevolence of the United States. Too bad it took a half baked invasion of an Eastern European backwater to remind Europe they owe us their undying loyalty for their own domestic freedom and security. At this point we should be taxing Europe for the privilege of their own security, in all honesty.

A braindead take here. Even Germany of all countries is expanding their military budget significantly these days, and Sweden and Finland definitely bring something to the table when it comes to military capability and quality defensive forces for NATO. I'm hoping this is just bitter sarcasm, because it is a completely stupid idea for the United States to levy a "tax" on sovereign allies across the Atlantic. Aside from the continuous existence of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) among nuclear armed powers, beefing up NATO security means the USA (and Canada) can rest easy and worry less about the possible scenario of WWIII breaking out. It would be far more costly for WWIII to wreak havoc upon the world than for the USA to continue NATO's status quo in Europe. For that matter the status quo is changing by the day now that more forces are being added to NATO by existing members and now these new states currently in their candidacy phase.

[Nebaki]

Per the memorandum, Sweden and Finland will not support YPG/PYD, as well as FETÖ, and they will work to curb activities of PKK, as well as affiliated or inspired groups. The unofficial arms embargo on Turkey by these states also lifted. In turn, Turkey will support Sweden and Finland's application to NATO.

I don´t see here any move from both sides since this memorandum says nothing in the Issue or even alignment of Sweden or Finland. Furthermore Turkey does not even accepted membership application of those Nordic Countries. Meanwhile this is nothing else then a Piece of Paper and no guarantees have been fulfilled so far.

[Axalon]

Some general comments...

As a Swede, I don’t give a rats ass about Turkey or what goes on there. I don’t expect folks in Turkey to care much about Sweden either, in similar fashion. And I am perfectly fine with all that. We are simply too distant, both geographically, culturally and historically - there is no natural relation or connection there. We have little or nothing in common - save that we don’t like Russian invasions and imperialism much. With all that in mind, I have no idea why there are some 50.000+ Turks currently present in Sweden these days. I have zero problems with Turkish nationals as tourists - while I have gigantic problems with any Turkish immigrants who try to make Sweden more like Turkey. If one desires the Middle East-package - then travel to (or stay in) the real thing - don’t pester us about it in Sweden. We have our own nation and culture thank you very much, and we don’t want or need any other (I’m sure the Turks would feel the exact same way had the roles been reversed). Multiculturalism is lie, always has been. Assimilation, assimilation, and yet more assimilation is the only way to make it in Sweden. The only way.

I care even less about the Kurds then I do Turkey, which I often find quite annoying with their never ending struggle for Kurdistan - there is nothing wrong with wanting your own nation - but why are the kurds incessantly nagging about it, in Sweden?!? Many, if not most Swedes does not care! Sweden is in Scandinavia, for crying out loud – it is not the Middle East. It is not even remotely close to that area! Sweden is not even on the same freaking continent! So please, shut up about your Kurdistan and Kurd-issues because many, if not most of us couldn’t care less about it. That’s just the way it is. Again, this is Scandinavia for **** sake. We have our own problems, and don’t need yours on top.

As for Kakabaveh… She is damned traitor to the Swedish nation and its people. She is a Kurd using Sweden and its riksdag (parliament) as a platform to push for Kurdish-issues and interests (this while endangering Swedish security). OPENLY! …Initially enabled and forwarded by our damned communist party to gain a seat in the riksdag. While it is our wretched socialist party establishment who ultimately allowed and enabled her to stay in Sweden in the first place - all this in the name of the Swedish people, funded by Swedish taxes - this without actually asking the Swedes if that arrangement was acceptable, of course.

Personally, I think she should be stripped of her faked up Swedish citizenship and preferably shot for her treachery to the Swedish people and their security. Failing that, at least deported to the Middle East were she obviously belongs, permanently expelled from Sweden for life. She is a shameful embarrassment for the Swedish parliament (riksdag) in particular and for the entire Swedish people in general. BTW, Kakabaveh’s Swedish is so substandard that it does not measure up to any acceptable levels for the riksdag. Every time I hear her speak, I have to concentrate hard just to grasp at least something of what she is talking about. Master the Swedish language then you might get a citizenship, if deserved. That is the way it should have been, but hardly the way it is – much thanks to the horde of PC-nuts and clueless multiculturalists.

***

Anyhow, my experience tells me that – once in NATO – the Finns and Swedes will honor their pact with all NATO-allies, including a secular Turkey. We simply can not afford not too. Ultimately, our external safety depends on it. In that sense, the rest (of NATO) can probably always rely on us. Anything else, and I would be genuinely surprised.

- A

[AqD]

Sweden is in Scandinavia, for crying out loud – it is not the Middle East. It is not even remotely close to that area! Sweden is not even on the same freaking continent! So please, shut up about your Kurdistan and Kurd-issues because many, if not most of us couldn’t care less about it. That’s just the way it is. Again, this is Scandinavia for **** sake. We have our own problems, and don’t need yours on top.

What can the government do about it?

If political advocacy groups are banned, wouldn't it also forbid those supporting democracy in Myanmar or even Ukrainian government?

[PointOfViewGun]

What can the government do about it?

If political advocacy groups are banned, wouldn't it also forbid those supporting democracy in Myanmar or even Ukrainian government?

Its OK to have advocacy groups supporting Al Qaeda?

[Nebaki]

With all that in mind, I have no idea why there are some 50.000+ Turks currently present in Sweden these days. I have zero problems with Turkish nationals as tourists - while I have gigantic problems with any Turkish immigrants who try to make Sweden more like Turkey. If one desires the Middle East-package - then travel to (or stay in) the real thing - don’t pester us about it in Sweden. We have our own nation and culture thank you very much, and we don’t want or need any other (I’m sure the Turks would feel the exact same way had the roles been reversed). Multiculturalism is lie, always has been. Assimilation, assimilation, and yet more assimilation is the only way to make it in Sweden. The only way.

Well some of them are enjoyers of European/Swedish Law for Aslyum for Political Reasons. Obviously left Turkey and starting the same things in Sweden which caused their leaving of Turkey. But there are too other reasons probably like a Software Engineer is working for a Company in Sweden and the only foreign Language he has to know is English. He would not have any trouble speaking with other Swedes in English since it´s a very known Language in your Country. Your Companies hire them and even work with your State to give them a permit of residence. Overall most of them who just go to Sweden for Work are well know that this country belongs to Swedes and not someone else. Probably most of these People pay like you taxes and there is not a requierement of being assimilated.

For example People of Kurdish Origin have a Pass from Turkey, Syria, Iraq or even Iran.

but why are the kurds incessantly nagging about it, in Sweden?!? Sweden is in Scandinavia, for crying out loud – it is not the Middle East. It is not even remotely close to that area! Sweden is not even on the same freaking continent! So please, shut up about your Kurdistan and Kurd-issues because many, if not most of us couldn’t care less about it. That’s just the way it is. Again, this is Scandinavia for **** sake. We have our own problems, and don’t need yours on top.

Well that is a Question we to asked you Swedes and Sweden. Your Government is supporting a Hostile Group close to a Turkish Soil with Financial Aid and even Arms which are known for bombing attacks inside Turkish Sovereignty. If you grant them asylum then you take care of them. But how this ends up becaming a Turkish-Swedish-Issue?

Anyhow, my experience tells me that – once in NATO – the Finns and Swedes will honor their pact with all NATO-allies, including a secular Turkey. We simply can not afford not too. Ultimately, our external safety depends on it. In that sense, the rest (of NATO) can probably always rely on us. Anything else, and I would be genuinely surprised.

If Secular or not that is not neither your business nor of Swedes or any other NATO Country which is even full of non-Secular Countries. This is something that we Turks decide. Do we intervene even in swedish internal politics? Of course not but you make foreign Issues your Problem and that is something that we can´t accept.

Now under this all circumstances how should we trust a Country like Sweden which is even giving shelter to our enemies but wants to join a Pact with us? If you read my previous replies on this Topic you find out that Sweden is already de facto in NATO Alliance while not all Members are obligated to it. You will probably get support from USA and EU since one has already a Agreement with in that case while you are Member of that other Organisation with except who? Turkey.

What guarantees a NATO Membership? in case of War you get the fully support of the Alliance and it can´t be refused since your whole Army will intergrated into NATO with some exceptions. Did I mention that Alllied Land Command is located in Turkey?

If you don´t need Turkey then why even insist to join? Personally i don´t support the idea became allied with a Nation that was known for hostile actions towards my People.

[AqD]

Its OK to have advocacy groups supporting Al Qaeda?

Al Qaeda is a recognized terrorist group.

The issue is broader than terrorism. We don't want any public support for Erdogan or Putin's regime, which are legitimate governments not terrorist groups. And I think support for Palestinian independence and Kurdish independence should be banned as well, as it's dangerous to attract those hardline fighters into Europe where they can then move freely once granted citizenship. But where do we draw the line?