NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Was the operation directed towards territory controlled by YPG or ISIL?

ISIS was targeted with the aim of sabotaging the Kurds. It's very simple and very obvious. Had the Kurds not been close to linking up their territories Turkey wouldn't have moved a finger against ISIS.

[PointOfViewGun]

You have not supplied any evidence of Finland backing PKK. What justifies Turkey's blocking of Finland?
Also Turkey has not sided with us on the Ukraine war. That's being openly hostile.
Or perhaps Finland should start funding PKK until Turkey let it in?

As I addressed this issue before, if Finland applied for membership alone there would be less of an issue compared to that of Sweden's. Sweden is the highlight here. Finland's more constructive approach is telling.

Turkey demands extradition of PKK members from Sweden, Finland for Nato bid

Cavusoglu said Ankara was making progress with Finland on the issue but Sweden was continuing to be “provocative”, and that Turkey would only be happy after getting security assurances.

Turkish officials believe Finland is closer to striking a deal with Turkey over the PKK than Sweden. "They are being more responsive and constructive," Cavusoglu said.

Who is "you" that Turkey didn't side with? Turkey supplied weapons to Ukraine before and during the invasion. There is a reason Turkish made Ukrainian drones continue to fly over Ukraine helping Ukrainian decimate Russian armored columns and ships.

ISIS was targeted with the aim of sabotaging the Kurds. It's very simple and very obvious. Had the Kurds not been close to linking up their territories Turkey wouldn't have moved a finger against ISIS.

YPG's front lines were static for at least half a year at that time. If that was the concern the operation would have started much earlier. In fact, YPG itself tried to exploit the situation and started mobilizing to stop the Turkish advance into ISIL territory just after Turkey started to move in. It is no coincidence that Turkish operations have been mostly limited to Syrian towns with high Arab and Turkmen population. There seems to be no limit to mental gymnastics you're using to alter reality.

[Nebaki]

I've provided an example of Turkey being de-facto allied to terrorists.. the HTS. Have you forgotten that that's what started our discussion? I've already given evidence to prove my statement.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And yes, relations (or lack of) between Turkey and Israel are not related to this topic.

Many things you mentioned before are not related to this topic but here we go they are there.

Does anyone know what the necessary conditions are to expell someone from NATO?

There aren´t such conditions look for the case of France and Greece.

Turkey is causing too much trouble since too long.

Can you please clarify it? For Whom? Finland and Sweden?

I don't resent it to the Turks here that they defend the honor of their country. I do the same. It would be great to have you as brothers, but it can't be unless you take a stance that is distant enough to Erdogan and his ideology as well as antisemitism and your own denial of the Armenian genocide. Until then (so godspeed, I guess).

I don´t think that we can see someone as brother who even made in his past anti-turkish-sentinment posts probably influenced by mainstream Media. Since Mr. Erdogan speaks everything openly and honestly, afterwards he also keeps his word! Security interests is normal that a president must grant for his country and people.

Furthermore it seems be that you are having a personal problem Mr. Erdogan and not with what he have done which are majority of Turkey debates.

In case of the so-called "own denial of the Armenian genocide" it´s worth to be mention that Turkey never said that People has not died or even don´t want to pay some reparations for the Victims or Descendants. The main Issue here it´s not to be wanted to be solved and the simple fact of more then just Turkey or Armenia are involved as States in that case.

There is not a antisemitism in Turkey (We just don´t agree how the State of Israel (not Israelis) behave against Palestinians) while something like that still happens today in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halle_synagogue_shooting

If you still want to continue on that Issues here i got something where you can find already discussed Stuff which we don´t have to take up again:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?811477-The-Israeli-Palestinian-conflict
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?812421-Armenian-Genocide-recognition-and-denialism-the-politics
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

You want to take part on this discussion then please with some contents which refers to it.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

YPG's front lines were static for at least half a year at that time. If that was the concern the operation would have started much earlier. In fact, YPG itself tried to exploit the situation and started mobilizing to stop the Turkish advance into ISIL territory just after Turkey started to move in. It is no coincidence that Turkish operations have been mostly limited to Syrian towns with high Arab and Turkmen population. There seems to be no limit to mental gymnastics you're using to alter reality.

Seth ol' buddy ol' pal, you're slipping.
The SDF launched the Manbij offensive on the 31st of May 2016, this is less than 3 months before Turkey launched Euphrates shield on the 24th of August.
The SDF took the city of Manbij on the 12 of August, this is 12 days before Turkey launched Euphrates shield on the 24th of August.
The SDF finishied capturing the northern Manbij countryside on the 21st of August, this is 3 days before Turkey launched Euphrates shield on the 24th of August.

What did the Sultan state was the aim of Euphrates shield on the day he announced the operation? Oh right, ISIS and... the PYD. You seem to be trying to contradict your own president's stated aims, while I'm just repeating them. Odd. I'm sure Erdogan made no further statements though, like declaring capturing Manbij from the SDF as one of the objectives of Euphrates shield. Was the goal added later? Not according to Erdogan:"ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey-backed forces will move toward the northern Syrian town of Manbij after completing their operation in al-Bab as originally planned, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on Tuesday."
So am I the one altering reality? Did I travel back in time to start the SDF's offensive later? Did I delay the Turkish invasion to make you look dumb? Did I alter Erdogan's speech on the day of the invasion? Truly I am more powerful than even I could have imagined.

[PointOfViewGun]

Seth ol' buddy ol' pal, you're slipping.
The SDF launched the Manbij offensive on the 31st of May 2016, this is less than 3 months before Turkey launched Euphrates shield on the 24th of August.
The SDF took the city of Manbij on the 12 of August, this is 12 days before Turkey launched Euphrates shield on the 24th of August.
The SDF finishied capturing the northern Manbij countryside on the 21st of August, this is 3 days before Turkey launched Euphrates shield on the 24th of August.

What did the Sultan state was the aim of Euphrates shield on the day he announced the operation? Oh right, ISIS and... the PYD. You seem to be trying to contradict your own president's stated aims, while I'm just repeating them. Odd. I'm sure Erdogan made no further statements though, like declaring capturing Manbij from the SDF as one of the objectives of Euphrates shield. Was the goal added later? Not according to Erdogan:"ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey-backed forces will move toward the northern Syrian town of Manbij after completing their operation in al-Bab as originally planned, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on Tuesday."
So am I the one altering reality? Did I travel back in time to start the SDF's offensive later? Did I delay the Turkish invasion to make you look dumb? Did I alter Erdogan's speech on the day of the invasion? Truly I am more powerful than even I could have imagined.

Sigh... There was no Manbij offensive before Turkey declared that they would initiate an operation to clear ISIL from the Turkish border. Preparation started early May with Turkey mobilizing its own forces and Syrian rebel forces along the border. Before this for months there was no activity from YPG forces against Manbij. Once Turkey started voicing that they were getting ready for an operation to clear ISIL and mobilize troops for it YPG suddenly remembered that they were fighting ISIL too.

What Erdoğan stated in those links, though neither mention Euphrates Shield by name, doesn't change the fact that primary aim of the Euphrates Shield operation was ISIL territories. Your Reuters link talks about the next step after Euphrates Shield which would be primarily against YPG, though it never materialized. It specifically talks about an other operation and not Euphrates Shield. In fact, just as you quoted from it it points out how the original plan was to move against al-Bab which was under ISIL control at the time. Yet, you try to use it to argue as if the primary aim of the operation was merely Kurds. So, yes, you are trying to alter reality, but you are doing it very poorly.

[AqD]

Who is "you" that Turkey didn't side with? Turkey supplied weapons to Ukraine before and during the invasion. There is a reason Turkish made Ukrainian drones continue to fly over Ukraine helping Ukrainian decimate Russian armored columns and ships.

They were sold, not donated. If selling weapon is considered help, most of Ukrainian weapons are in fact Russian so it means Russia funded Ukrainian military to resist Russia...?

And Turkey has not done any sanctions.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Sigh... There was no Manbij offensive before Turkey declared that they would initiate an operation to clear ISIL from the Turkish border. Preparation started early May with Turkey mobilizing its own forces and Syrian rebel forces along the border. Before this for months there was no activity from YPG forces against Manbij. Once Turkey started voicing that they were getting ready for an operation to clear ISIL and mobilize troops for it YPG suddenly remembered that they were fighting ISIL too.

Nice backtracking.
The early May plan was a joint proposal with the US, Qatar and some others to send 3,000 Zenki fighters. They were meant to be armed and supplied by the US, and the operation was to start within 2 weeks, but the US shut this plan down. Moreover no Turkish forces were supposed to participate in this plan.
This, quite clearly, wasn't Euphrates shield.

What Erdoğan stated in those links, though neither mention Euphrates Shield by name, doesn't change the fact that primary aim of the Euphrates Shield operation was ISIL territories. Your Reuters link talks about the next step after Euphrates Shield which would be primarily against YPG, though it never materialized. It specifically talks about an other operation and not Euphrates Shield. In fact, just as you quoted from it it points out how the original plan was to move against al-Bab which was under ISIL control at the time. Yet, you try to use it to argue as if the primary aim of the operation was merely Kurds. So, yes, you are trying to alter reality, but you are doing it very poorly.

The plan was always to move on to Manbij, it just ended prematurely. Turkish backed forces engaged the SDF and took territory from them during Euphrates Shield. The Turkish defence minister also stated that preventing the Kurds from connecting their territory was a [/url=https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/8/25/turkey-deploys-more-tanks-in-syria-warns-kurdish-ypg] priority[/url]: "Turkish Defence Minister Fikri Isik said preventing the Kurdish PYD party – the political arm of the YPG – from uniting Kurdish cantons east of Jarablus with those further west was a priority."
"“Islamic State should be completely cleansed, this is an absolute must. But it’s not enough for us … The PYD and the YPG militia should not replace Islamic State there,” Isik told Turkish broadcaster NTV.

“The PYD’s biggest dream is to unify the western and eastern cantons. We cannot let this happen,” he said."
It's very clear what the actual aim was.

[PointOfViewGun]

They were sold, not donated. If selling weapon is considered help, most of Ukrainian weapons are in fact Russian so it means Russia funded Ukrainian military to resist Russia...?

And Turkey has not done any sanctions.

Turkey's economy is the most vulnerable European economy to employing sanctions on Russia. Many European states similarly try to avoid sanctions where it hurts them the most. Selling weapons to Ukraine while Russia threatens Ukraine and continue to deliver them while Russian invades Ukraine is much more helpful than sending weapons weeks after Russia started its invasion. Blocking the Turkish straits by the Turkish government also meant that Russia could not replenish its Black Sea navy. That likely saved Odessa from a naval assault as Moskva is gone and Russia can not call an other ship major anti-AA capability.

Turkey Steps Up Support for Ukraine, Risking Russian Retaliation

Ankara's strict enforcement of the convention appears to have denied any wiggle room for Moscow to access its waiting destroyers and a frigate. Among them is one of Russia's most advanced and modern warships that carries cruise missiles.

The ships were expected to join a fleet of warships already massed outside the Ukrainian city of Odessa, ahead of an expected assault. In addition, Kyiv's announcement Wednesday that Turkish-made armed drones will be delivered is likely to irk Moscow further. Turkish defense analyst Arda Mevlutoglu says the drones pose a threat to Russian forces.

It's easy to talk. Talk is cheap.

Nice backtracking.
The early May plan was a joint proposal with the US, Qatar and some others to send 3,000 Zenki fighters. They were meant to be armed and supplied by the US, and the operation was to start within 2 weeks, but the US shut this plan down. Moreover no Turkish forces were supposed to participate in this plan.
This, quite clearly, wasn't Euphrates shield.

The plan was always to move on to Manbij, it just ended prematurely. Turkish backed forces engaged the SDF and took territory from them during Euphrates Shield. The Turkish defence minister also stated that preventing the Kurds from connecting their territory was a priority: "Turkish Defence Minister Fikri Isik said preventing the Kurdish PYD party – the political arm of the YPG – from uniting Kurdish cantons east of Jarablus with those further west was a priority."
"“Islamic State should be completely cleansed, this is an absolute must. But it’s not enough for us … The PYD and the YPG militia should not replace Islamic State there,” Isik told Turkish broadcaster NTV.

“The PYD’s biggest dream is to unify the western and eastern cantons. We cannot let this happen,” he said."
It's very clear what the actual aim was.

No backtracking on my part. That plan was shut down, yes, but then Turkey decided to move in anyways and started mobilizing and announcing its intention to move in. In fact, at the time, domestically the government was criticized for being so vocal about a military operation beforehand. That's when YPG started to move in as well. Of course Manbij was a primary target back then since it was held by ISIL. It remained a target after YPG took over it but no action against was taken eventually. You seem to be forgetting that we are not discussing whether Turkey opposed YPG. No one argues against that. You tried to make it appear as if Turkey never primarily targeted ISIL. Even your own Al Jazeera article speaks of it.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

No backtracking on my part. That plan was shut down, yes, but then Turkey decided to move in anyways and started mobilizing and announcing its intention to move in. In fact, at the time, domestically the government was criticized for being so vocal about a military operation beforehand.

Can you provide a link to this announcement?

That's when YPG started to move in as well. Of course Manbij was a primary target back then since it was held by ISIL. It remained a target after YPG took over it but no action against was taken eventually. You seem to be forgetting that we are not discussing whether Turkey opposed YPG. No one argues against that. You tried to make it appear as if Turkey never primarily targeted ISIL. Even your own Al Jazeera article speaks of it.

Sigh. When Germany invaded Belgium during ww1, was their aim the conquest of Belgium or was it to bypass French defences and attempt to reach Paris?
You can continue to contradict the Turkish president and minister of defence, but I think they were quite clear.

[Nebaki]

They were sold, not donated. If selling weapon is considered help, most of Ukrainian weapons are in fact Russian so it means Russia funded Ukrainian military to resist Russia...?

This is wrong and we can even start a debate about how much Turkey already done in his effort to help Ukraine. Didn´t know that Antonow is russian.

And Turkey has not done any sanctions.

Another point which is wrong. What should Turkey should which would consider as "Sanctions" or whatever which would fit in your World view?

[dogukan]

The opportunism of Turkey by now and the hate for any Kurdish political entity, now apparently also including citizens and PMs of a sovereign nation like Sweden hopefully communicates the worlds to the world about the mentality that dominates this country.

West seems to be threading carefully to not give Erdoğan any more reason to escalate a nationalist hysteria once again but I am glad they've come to the realization that appeasing this regime and its endless nationalist fantasies will solve nothing.

If you ask the average Turkish citizen now, they're claiming that Sweden is a global sponsor of terrorism and that they should not have given the "kurds" there citizenship..because they are all terrorists...somehow..for being Kurds who do not agree with Turkey's position on Kurd's status. So they are all PKK members who needs to be jailed.
This is coming from a global sponsor of jihadi movements btw. A state that sponsors-funds Islamism which breeds social conflict throughout the world and jihadism as a natural product. Yet, the world is supposed to worry about a Kurdish militant organization that simply demands the recognition of Kurds as a political entity within the countries they live in....

[PointOfViewGun]

The opportunism of Turkey by now and the hate for any Kurdish political entity, now apparently also including citizens and PMs of a sovereign nation like Sweden hopefully communicates the worlds to the world about the mentality that dominates this country.

West seems to be threading carefully to not give Erdoğan any more reason to escalate a nationalist hysteria once again but I am glad they've come to the realization that appeasing this regime and its endless nationalist fantasies will solve nothing.

If you ask the average Turkish citizen now, they're claiming that Sweden is a global sponsor of terrorism and that they should not have given the "kurds" there citizenship..because they are all terrorists...somehow..for being Kurds who do not agree with Turkey's position on Kurd's status. So they are all PKK members who needs to be jailed.
This is coming from a global sponsor of jihadi movements btw. A state that sponsors-funds Islamism which breeds social conflict throughout the world and jihadism as a natural product. Yet, the world is supposed to worry about a Kurdish militant organization that simply demands the recognition of Kurds as a political entity within the countries they live in....

I understand lying about politics to replace one dogma with an other as you do here but to lie about what average Turkish citizen thinks of all Kurds in Sweden is quite laughable.

Meanwhile, back in reality, the Swedish government stayed in power thanks to a single vote after the elections in 2019. The owner of that vote is Amineh Kakabaveh, a member of the Swedish parliament and a former peshmerga. It is known that an agreement with Kakabaveh was reached with the current government that in exchange for his vote Sweden would work with and support YPG. As Turkey objects to PKK activities in Sweden Kakabaveh threatened the government with removing her support. She is also known for her efforts to remove PKK from EU's terror list.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Still waiting on that link POVG.

[Tureuki]

Do we even need excuses for "sabotaging" an organization that is led by seasoned PKK militants that have been terrorizing our country for decades? Lol. ISIL might be bad, but it was a fanatical organization with no friends that was doomed to crumble away eventually, it had no internal support in Turkey. For very practical reasons that you will persistently refuse to realize, YPG is a bigger threat for Turkey.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Do we even need excuses for "sabotaging" an organization that is led by seasoned PKK militants that have been terrorizing our country for decades? Lol. ISIL might be bad, but it was a fanatical organization with no friends that was doomed to crumble away eventually, it had no internal support in Turkey. For very practical reasons that you will persistently refuse to realize, YPG is a bigger threat for Turkey.

Thank you for supporting my argument and undermining that of PoVG.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm not sure how what Tureuki said undermines any of my arguments.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I'm not sure how what Tureuki said undermines any of my arguments.

He admits that the YPG was the aim and a higher preference for Turkey than ISIS.

Also, where's that link? Or did you realise you were wrong?

[PointOfViewGun]

He admits that the YPG was the aim and a higher preference for Turkey than ISIS.

That's not really what he's saying though. You're merely putting words in his mouth. Anyone, including him, saying what you claim he says doesn't really undermine what I said on its own either.

Also, where's that link? Or did you realise you were wrong?

I'm just not giving enough credit to your arguments to comb over countless speeches. We've already established that YPG moved in after the Turkish proposals to move in and started mobilization. Whether those initial plans were not realized doesn't really change much. I thought it was apparent by now. My bad...

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I'm just not giving enough credit to your arguments to comb over countless speeches. We've already established that YPG moved in after the Turkish proposals to move in and started mobilization. Whether those initial plans were not realized doesn't really change much. I thought it was apparent by now. My bad...

We have established no such thing. We've established that an operation that Turkey wasn't going to partake in directly was planned and canned before the Kurdish offensive began. It wasn't a Turkish proposal to move in, no Turkish forces were supposed to participate.
You saying you can't be bothered to find a source might as well be an admission that there isn't one.

[Tureuki]

Thank you for supporting my argument and undermining that of PoVG.

I thought your argument was that Turkey's national security is irrevelant and Turkey is always faulty whenever its acts directly or indirectly damages Western ambitions.