NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

[antaeus]

In such a case, however, third party nations would require a larger involvement of the belligerent country in Britain to jump in. If British forces get attacked in Sweden NATO countries won't rush to declare war on Russia and start strikes. They would at least wait for mainland Britain to get affected in a major way. Not even a few cruise missile strike would do. I have no confidence that those Swede jets would start striking down Russian jets to save Polish cities. I'm not sure how much real trust remains between states to make such a big move. Promises made behind closed doors no longer mean anything. There are too many of failed ones that I'm not sure a Swede commander would give the kill order in such a situation.

Sure, currently, no Swedish fighters are patrolling Poland, but their AWACs are, and forming a part of the defence network that would respond as a collective. But we're going beyond the scope of the analogy now - the purpose of which was to illustrate that this is essentially a fait accompli. There are too many harmonies/synergies. Turkish concerns are legitimate, but they will be resolved.

[PointOfViewGun]

The quote from the assessment I posted earlier again:

The Kurdish People’s Protection Unit—the Syrian militia of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)—probably will seek some form of autonomy but will face resistance from Russia, Iran, and Turkey.

Kurdish People's Protection Unit is Yekîneyên Parastina Gel (YPG) for those that didn't Google it. The US intelligence assessment is that YPG is PKK's Syrian militia. Öcalan is not the commander of the YPG but he is their leader.

Raqqa 2018:




America’s Marxist Allies Against ISIS

“It’s all PKK but different branches,” Ms. Ruken said, clad in fatigues in her encampment atop Sinjar Mountain this spring as a battle with Islamic State fighters raged less than a mile away at the mountain’s base. “Sometimes I’m a PKK, sometimes I’m a PJAK, sometimes I’m a YPG. It doesn’t really matter. They are all members of the PKK.”

The Fatal Flaw in Trump's ISIS Plan

As autocratic and intemperate as he is, Erdogan isn’t actually wrong about the commingling of various Kurdish outfits. In a 2013 interview with Osman Ocalan, the brother of imprisoned PKK leader Abdallah Ocalan, Osman claimed that he and other PKK figures founded the Democratic Union Party (PYD), the YPG’s political arm, in 2003 in Iraq’s Qandil Mountains, the headquarters of the PKK. The PYD is also a member of the Kurdish Communities Union, established in 2005 in Qandil by the Kurdish People’s Congress, a PKK organization that the State Department added to the FTO in January 2004. The co-chairperson of the executive council of the Kurdish Communities Union is Cemil Baylik, the acting leader of the PKK. In addition, hardened PKK activists, fighters, and commanders fill the ranks of the PYD and YPG. A YPG fighter told The Wall Street Journal that he had been with the PKK before, and that fighters regularly rotated between PKK armed entities. Iraqi Kurdish Region President Masud Barzani, a close ally of the United States against ISIS, said in March 2016 that the PYD and the PKK are basically the same entity.

The idiocy of this discussion is like arguing that Lexus is not Toyota...

Sure, currently, no Swedish fighters are patrolling Poland, but their AWACs are, and forming a part of the defence network that would respond as a collective. But we're going beyond the scope of the analogy now - the purpose of which was to illustrate that this is essentially a fait accompli. There are too many harmonies/synergies. Turkish concerns are legitimate, but they will be resolved.

In such a case, Turkey's requests should be an easy deal. Sweden and Finland have been largely denying Turkey's requests to extradict people with connections to PKK or FETÖ. Finland was asked for 12 people while Sweden was asked for 21 since 2016. It wasn't just even simple denial but for 5 of those requests apparently no response was given. 19 were rejected. 9 are underway.

[Vanoi]

The quote from the assessment I posted earlier again:

Again where does it say the are the same group? You keep pointing ties and nothing much else. And you are outright ignoring that the US does not see them as the same. Otherwise the YPG would fall under the same terror designation the PKK has.

The rest of your post I'm not bothering with. Still waiting on the source that Ocalan is the leader of all Kurdish groups. And for you to actually address my post.

Ignoring my sources won't make them go away.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The word "offshoot" here is used synonymous to a branch which is what is often used. The intelligence assessment calls YPG the Syrian militia of PKK. I understand some people's confusion but it's long due that people get accustomed to these terminologies. In fact, PKK is the parent organization. It contains YPG in Syria, PJAK in Iran, PÇDK in Iraq and PKK in Turkey with all under Koma Civakên Kurdistanê (KCK). With PKK being the oldest, the parent, and where most of the senior leaders of other organizations come from, it is used interchangeably for these organizations as they often share fighting forces and . Öcalan, founder of PKK, is the leader of all of them. Can you talk of the same relationship with Al Qaeda and ISIL?

I'd appreciate if you could reply to the rest of my post as well, though I suppose it is too much to expect for you to explain the disparity between Turkey being allied to HTS, which it designates a terrorist organisation, and YPG.

[Vanoi]

I'd appreciate if you could reply to the rest of my post as well, though I suppose it is too much to expect for you to explain the disparity between Turkey being allied to HTS, which it designates a terrorist organisation, and YPG.

At the end of the day Turkey doesn't care about terrorists. They shared a border with ISIS for years. They only intervened after it looked like the Kurds we're going to connect their two cantons in Syria.

Turkey will do anything in it's power to fight Kurdish separatism. Even if it means forcing allies to do it also. Fortunately Turkey seems unable to force France and the US from supporting the SDF.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

At the end of the day Turkey doesn't care about terrorists. They shared a border with ISIS for years. They only intervened after it looked like the Kurds we're going to connect their two cantons in Syria.

They didn't just share a border, they traded with ISIS. This is the point I'm trying to make, I just want to hear them attempt to explain why an Arab terrorist organisation (by Turkey's own designation) is a good ally to have, but a Kurdish terrorist organisation (by Turkey's designation) must be purged without delay. Every single move Turkey made in Syria had been made with one purpose: to sabotage the Kurds. This is beyond obvious, I'm just interested to hear how they'll try to spin it.

[Vanoi]

They didn't just share a border, they traded with ISIS. This is the point I'm trying to make, I just want to hear them attempt to explain why an Arab terrorist organisation (by Turkey's own designation) is a good ally to have, but a Kurdish terrorist organisation (by Turkey's designation) must be purged without delay. Every single move Turkey made in Syria had been made with one purpose: to sabotage the Kurds. This is beyond obvious, I'm just interested to hear how they'll try to spin it.

Funny thing. Many members of the SDF in Syria aren't even Kurdish. The SDF has many Arab tribesman, Assyrians, Syriacs, and even Turkmen. Doesn't stop Turkey from trying to claim they're PKK though.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'd appreciate if you could reply to the rest of my post as well, though I suppose it is too much to expect for you to explain the disparity between Turkey being allied to HTS, which it designates a terrorist organisation, and YPG.

Clearly you don't see the irony of you openly expecting a one way conversation.

[Vanoi]

Clearly you don't see the irony of you openly expecting a one way conversation.

You going to post that source showing Ocalan is the leader of all of these Kurdish groups? Not going to let you get away from that claim.

[PointOfViewGun]

You going to post that source showing Ocalan is the leader of all of these Kurdish groups? Not going to let you get away from that claim.

You saw Öcalan's large poster above a bunch of YPG fighters, read my explanation of the organization's chart but didn't Google Koma Civakên Kurdistanê (KCK)?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Clearly you don't see the irony of you openly expecting a one way conversation.

You can't even bring yourself to deny it, because you know that what I'm saying is true. Turkey only pretends to care about the "terrorist" label, it's the "Kurdish" label that is the issue for Turkey.

[Vanoi]

You saw Öcalan's large poster above a bunch of YPG fighters, read my explanation of the organization's chart but didn't Google Koma Civakên Kurdistanê (KCK)?

Oh I did but you are definitely leaving some key information. Like the fact Ocalan is only an honorary leader and hasn't actually led the organization in years due to his imprisonment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd...munities_Union

It's also only political organization meant to advance Ocalan's ideology. There are two co-leaders both who are not Ocalan and neither of them are listed as leaders in the PKK, PYD, YPG, ect.

Not only that but this organization doesn't actually command any of the groups. You're trying to pass off a political organization as a unified command of Kurdish separatist groups when it's nothing even remotely like that.

Thanks for bringing up the KCK. It's only solidifying my point that they are separate with separate leaders leading them.

[Nebaki]

Isn't it hypocrisy how Turkey is only concerned with Kurdish groups it labels as terrorists, yet openly co-operates with non-Kurdish groups it itself designated as terrorist organisations, such as HTS, on the territory of which Turkey set up observation posts to prevent other factions from attacking HTS? Is it perhaps that Turkey doesn't care about the "terrorist" label, but only the "Kurdish" one?

This not true and on my previous replies i mentioned not only groups of of kurdish origin. Turkey does not openly co-operates with groups which itself designated as terrorist organisations. For example a delegation of Taliban met with anyone around the World and Turkey took as a NATO Member a Key role here and i even mentioned this even of that certain job was important for the Alliance.

They didn't just share a border, they traded with ISIS. This is the point I'm trying to make, I just want to hear them attempt to explain why an Arab terrorist organisation (by Turkey's own designation) is a good ally to have, but a Kurdish terrorist organisation (by Turkey's designation) must be purged without delay. Every single move Turkey made in Syria had been made with one purpose: to sabotage the Kurds. This is beyond obvious, I'm just interested to hear how they'll try to spin it.

That is a very strong accusation and probably even got by myself or even by @Povg on the Thread about Syria and fight on ISIL invalited. Russia even wanted to prove that and blamed himself in the entire World for lacking abilities for that. If something like that would be true, it would be really easy for USA, Europe or United Nations to fully charge Turkey for that.

....Due to Conscription we don't lack manpower. Our Army has lots of modern equipment, listing some of the older equipment while ignoring the modern stuff is straw-manning, and I ignored it as such.

Every male Finnish citizen over the age of 18 has to do 347 days of compulsory military service with a monthly salary of 11 Euros. Deserters are sentenced to 127 days in prison in addition to their military service. There are also 27,000+ Finnish citizens doing their military service in the Finnish army, which currently has 60,000+ personnel.

Besides that using a copy of AK-Style Weapon as your Service Rifle and even using more Soviet-Era designed then some newly military projects which are still on the Stage of being Project does not mean that you are using modern Stuff:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Stationary Turret outpost?

We would like not to ever have to protect our country unless we have to, joining the alliance would be a deterrence. A Nordic alliance is not possible because most Nordic countries are in NATO and it wouldn't be possible to create this due to that fact.

I guess that Turkey is increasing that amount of deterrence since you even insisting here to being abled from Turkey to join. This is totally wrong aren´t you guys in full European Union Membership? If there should be a so-called Nordic "Alliance" then countries like Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland can make mutual defense agreement with each other - that must have include NATO. If it´s not possible due to some kind of NATO Structure or how you would present, i got here a previous reply which you seem to be totally ignored.

Finland and Sweden are not NATO members, but since they are countries in the northern war wing of the EU, they indirectly have the capabilities and military structuring to carry out operations in coordination with NATO elements at all levels. Already in 2002, the Berlin plus agreement between the EU and NATO included the joint use of forces by NATO and EU elements in a situation that undermined security in Europe.

Source:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetd...linplus_en.pdf

So if Norway wants to help Finland in case of War they would be able to do that even of your Soviet-Era style Railnetwork wouldn´t be really helpful. Like Poland is helping for example Ukraine.

You might want to check your history, EU never wanted Turkey to open its borders to allow a uncontrolled migration, that is why it paid Turkey to stop it. Such an ally Turkey is. Unfortunately refugees only have a right to arrive in the first safe country, not pick and choose, unless approved with the receiving country.

So first of all there was big pressure from even your country towards Turkey to open his Borders for refugees and that you guys will take care of them - of course what foolish attempt even to believe such swj bs - later even your country didn´t want to take care of them. Those people never intended to go Turkey but it´s Turkey job to stop them from what? Turkey never invited them but your foreign policy did it. If Turkey "is such a ally" why even then bother to get Military Alliance with it?

The behaviour/values you attributed to Finland, I recognized as values typical of the American left, it is very much atypical to Finland.

Sry it seems to be anything that can be considered for you is seen as American left? I don´t think that someone else then you is aware of that.

You showed a source about Finnish citizens, ethnic Kurds saying they are members of YPG, that is it. Nothing about their supposed crimes. Nothing about official support, nothing about anything else. In other words you sourced.

First of all there is just one more then a Source. You wanted a Source where even Finnish citiziens being part of a structure like YPG. I provided that. Aren´t there finnish anti-fa and left extremists? aren´t they offering them to find shelter and even get easily the status of a refugee/aslyum seeker in Finland? How this can even happen with support from official side?

Isn't you inflation above 70%? That would seem to be inflation that is close to going out of control, which is why I compared it to a country known for out of control inflation.

I don´t know maybe it is maybe it is not. Turkey is a State which is bound to European Union neither it´s benefit. His neighbours even a European Union Member is having a economic crisis since a decade and still struggling on it. I guess this anything has a negative impact on Turkish Economy like having a non-existent States likes Iraq or Syria as neighbours.

I'm done with the gibberish spouted by nabaki, no point in talking to him since he just throws out unfounded accusations. Added to the ignore list.

Those so called "unfounded accusations" are facts about your country and you asked for certain thing which i provided to the public. What did last time those so-called State of Finland against Turkey? They sanctioned it and condemned their military operations in Syria. Wouldn´t it be more supportive that Turkey would be sucessfull there which would too have a positive impact on the refugee Problem? Nah how dare they it´s better that entire Syria gets bombed by Russian Air Force but those people aren´t Europeans... Finlands inclusion in NATO does not contribute to Turkey, on the contrary, it is a weakness.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Turkey does not openly co-operates with groups which itself designated as terrorist organisations.

Yes, it does. Hayat Tahrir al-Sham.

Russia even wanted to prove that and blamed himself in the entire World for lacking abilities for that. If something like that would be true, it would be really easy for USA, Europe or United Nations to fully charge Turkey for that.

Because it was done via smuggling, not official channels. Note that while that makes it sound like little, up to a fifth of the oil used yearly by Turkey comes from smugglers. And the truth is the Syrian government was trading oil with ISIS as well.

[PointOfViewGun]

You can't even bring yourself to deny it, because you know that what I'm saying is true. Turkey only pretends to care about the "terrorist" label, it's the "Kurdish" label that is the issue for Turkey.

Care to tell why I should entertain your tangent (aka whataboutism) when you so openly ignore the main point?

Oh I did but you are definitely leaving some key information. Like the fact Ocalan is only an honorary leader and hasn't actually led the organization in years due to his imprisonment.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd...munities_Union
It's also only political organization meant to advance Ocalan's ideology. There are two co-leaders both who are not Ocalan and neither of them are listed as leaders in the PKK, PYD, YPG, ect.
Not only that but this organization doesn't actually command any of the groups. You're trying to pass off a political organization as a unified command of Kurdish separatist groups when it's nothing even remotely like that.
Thanks for bringing up the KCK. It's only solidifying my point that they are separate with separate leaders leading them.

Yes, its a book club. You have enlightened us. How stupid of us to assume these links that I have shown so clearly. Sigh...

[Nebaki]

Yes, it does. Hayat Tahrir al-Sham.

Wrong. Turkey never supported them. They are nevertheless located in Idlib - benefiting mostly from the Usa and Saudis and always live in violent conflict with each other and groups which Turkey supported (like groups which are originated from Syrian Turkomans or Turkish Syrians). Supported by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in Syria it receives its orders directly from these two states.

You need a Source where for example USA officialy supported something called like "Hayat Tahrir al-Sham" well i can provide that:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/05/state-department-renamed-al-qaeda-not-a-terrorist-organization-can-receive-cia-supplies.html#more)

It is the most up-to-date version of al-Nusra and has power in Idlib. It is a terrorist organization that the Syrian army and Russia want to destroy, the Republic of Turkey met with its representatives in Idlib recently and demanded the dissolution of the organization. After the rejection, it was recognized as a terrorist organization by Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...-Sham_conflict

Because it was done via smuggling, not official channels. Note that while that makes it sound like little, up to a fifth of the oil used yearly by Turkey comes from smugglers. And the truth is the Syrian government was trading oil with ISIS as well.

Well 1/5th of Cigarettes are from smuggling in Turkey - there are very much amount of smuggled goodies in Turkey which are not even from Syria but from elsewhere of the World where the officials has no sight on it or busy with different more important tasks. This does not mean that this amount came direclty from especially Syria. Do you even know who is charge of the all Gas stations in Turkey?

[Vanoi]

Yes, its a book club. You have enlightened us. How stupid of us to assume these links that I have shown so clearly. Sigh...

So no actual rebuttal? I can't help you didn't even bother to look up the organization. You are more than willing to actually address what I said but I doubt you will.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Care to tell why I should entertain your tangent (aka whataboutism) when you so openly ignore the main point?

The main point is that Turkey opposes Finland and Sweden entrance allegedly due to support for a terrorist group (as defined by Turkey), because Turkey pretends like it cares about terrorism, which is blatantly false. Turkey has no qualms working with terrorists, so long as they're not Kurds.

Wrong. Turkey never supported them. They are nevertheless located in Idlib - benefiting mostly from the Usa and Saudis and always live in violent conflict with each other and groups which Turkey supported (like groups which are originated from Syrian Turkomans or Turkish Syrians).

Turkey did and still does support HTS. Turkey has "observation posts" within HTS territory meant to stop the SAA from attacking them and diplomatically intervenes on their behalf every time the SAA launch an offensive. Meanwhile Turkish forces operate freely within HTS territory, Turkish supported rebel forces have made no attempts to attack HTS territory, heck the only reason HTS still has any territory is.. Turkey.

Supported by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in Syria it receives its orders directly from these two states.

Yes, but this isn't a discussion about the integrity of the gulf states.

You need a Source where for example USA officialy supported something called like "Hayat Tahrir al-Sham" well i can provide that:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/05/state-department-renamed-al-qaeda-not-a-terrorist-organization-can-receive-cia-supplies.html#more)

The USA has many times now bombed HTS and killed high ranking members of the organisation, before and after the report you linked. This isn't however a conversation about the US, it's about Turkey. I have to ask though, what on earth is this source?

It is the most up-to-date version of al-Nusra and has power in Idlib. It is a terrorist organization that the Syrian army and Russia want to destroy, the Republic of Turkey met with its representatives in Idlib recently and demanded the dissolution of the organization. After the rejection, it was recognized as a terrorist organization by Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...-Sham_conflict

Turkey has indeed designated HTS as a terrorist organisation, I've said this. And yet, Turkey is the only reason HTS still has control of any territory.

Well 1/5th of Cigarettes are from smuggling in Turkey - there are very much amount of smuggled goodies in Turkey which are not even from Syria but from elsewhere of the World where the officials has no sight on it or busy with different more important tasks. This does not mean that this amount came direclty from especially Syria. Do you even know who is charge of the all Gas stations in Turkey?

I wasn't saying that 1/5th of oil came from ISIS. I was saying that Turkey got oil from ISIS.

[Nebaki]

Turkey did and still does support HTS. Turkey has "observation posts" within HTS territory meant to stop the SAA from attacking them and diplomatically intervenes on their behalf every time the SAA launch an offensive. Meanwhile Turkish forces operate freely
within HTS territory, Turkish supported rebel forces have made no attempts to attack HTS territory, heck the only reason HTS still has any territory is.. Turkey.

Just because Turkey is acting currently moderate towards HTS that does not mean that are not seen by Turkey hostile. So in your opinion Turkey should take another armed conflict against something called like HTS while it can even find a unarmed solution? This is not something that Turkey is supporting or cooperating with HTS. There is no SAA it´s more like a Satellite State of Russia which was protected by Russia. In case of Turkey is going fully for a violently option it would direclty face-off Russia. I´m pretty sure that you are aware of that. HTS does not have an territory because of Turkey but probably because of:

Yes, but this isn't a discussion about the integrity of the gulf states.

We have to mention this since they are too an actor in Syrian Crisis. You came up with that since it is from viewpoint more interesting what is happening Syria then somewhere else.

The USA has many times now bombed HTS and killed high ranking members of the organisation, before and after the report you linked. This isn't however a conversation about the US, it's about Turkey.

Well yet they worked with them and even supplied them with arms and financial aid.

I have to ask though, what on earth is this source?

It´s called Wikipedia. The most common Source for accusations to show a country in bad light especially if those People from their country aren´t allowed to use the platform properly due some interference of some kind from the Administration. I don´t think that you would accept something that would be pro-Turkish so i took one of the most anti-Turkish one.

Turkey has indeed designated HTS as a terrorist organisation, I've said this. And yet, Turkey is the only reason HTS still has control of any territory.

What should Turkey do in your opinion? Do you think they will go over to the Side of Assad or join the YPG? In my opinion Israel can take them on a voluntary basis but i don´t think that they will settle down their arms in that case.

I wasn't saying that 1/5th of oil came from ISIS. I was saying that Turkey got oil from ISIS.

This Hoax and some Big Players failed of this accusation. It now became already decade and you are still insisting on it. Maybe something was smuggled in and even out but was never from the Official Side and they would not even bother take something like that serious.

Smuggling happened in that Region before and probably will be a Issue even after a century. It´s a illegal trade nothing else.

[PointOfViewGun]

The main point is that Turkey opposes Finland and Sweden entrance allegedly due to support for a terrorist group (as defined by Turkey), because Turkey pretends like it cares about terrorism, which is blatantly false. Turkey has no qualms working with terrorists, so long as they're not Kurds.

The main point was about YPG being the Syrian branch of PKK. That's what you were responding to with your parallel. That's what corrected in detail. In order not to acknowledge the difference between groups like YPG/PKK and Al Qaeda/HTS/ISIL you jumped to talking about HTS in a vacuum. By the way, its not just USA that recognizes PKK as a terrorist organization. Sweden and Finland recognize them as a terrorist organization too since they are members of the EU and EU recognizes them as such.