NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

[PointOfViewGun]

Incidentally, Turkish and British authorities have been in talks for a rather large arms sale that include a series of arms:

Hedging Bets: Why Turkey Is Discussing Procuring Eurofighters From Britain

Turkey is in talks with the United Kingdom over a multibillion-dollar arms package that includes an estimated 24-48 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets. These talks come as the fate of another $20 billion deal with the United States for 40 advanced Block 70 F-16 Viper jets and 79 modernization kits remains up in the air due to substantive opposition from Congress. The Turkish Air Force would likely welcome a Eurofighter acquisition for several reasons.
According to Middle East Eye, which broke the story, the proposed deal is valued at over $10 billion and also includes C-130J Hercules transport planes, Type 23 frigates, and new engines for Turkey’s U.S.-built M60 tanks.

In the past, arms embargo against Turkey accomplished little to hurt the country. To the contrary, it fueled the efforts to create a domestic arms industry. The results of that is largely seen in effectiveness of Turkish drones in Syria against Syrian government army in support of FSA, in Libya against Greece/France/Russia backed Haftar/Wagner forces in support of UN recognized Libyan government, in Azerbaijan against Armenian occupiers in support of the Azerbaijani government and the honorary mention being the drones used by the Ukrainian forces in Ukraine against Russian forces in of the most innovative manners. Less seen results are the systems used in planes, ships and armored vehicles that bit by bit being converted to domestic means.

The more USA acts irrationally towards Turkey the less influence it can wield on Turkey in the long run. The worst mistake of the recent administrations of USA has been to mistaken Erdoğan with Turkey. There will be consequences. People can act as if Turkey is the party that shakes up the alliance but its been the other way around for the past 3 decades. The right question is why should Turkey buy anything from USA when USA is hostile to not just Turkey's interests but to Turkey's national security?

[Nebaki]

It comes down to how bad does Turkey need F-16s.

That is your perception probably jeopardised by mass media and their counter-productive statements about Turkey. We got even a Thread for that:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

In the US Congress has to approve weapon sales. Bob Menendez is the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. This committee handles weapons sales from the US to foreign countries. As the chairman, he can block any sales he wants. The other members of the committee aren't exactly pro-Turkey either.

Obviously they are but how does share the public opinion in US? Did you ask yourself why these People aren´t pro-Turkey in the first term? What are your expectations from them?

As for your last question, that's simple. Why sell F-16s to a country who is hostile to US interests and actively undermining them?

I can give ask you the same question. Why procure from a country Arms who is hostile to Turkish interests and actively undermining them? Isn´t the core of the problem with Turkish-US relationship more some third-parties who are represented by some lobbyist in US Senate/Congress rather then something really being a Issue between those two?

Aren´t the US delivering tons of military material somewhere in Syria to a group which is using a an political agenda of separatist terrorism against Turkey since decades?

The US makes plenty of arms sales without Turkey. The US doesn't need to sell F-16s to Turkey. It's Turkey who needs to buy F-16s. One side has leverage. One does not.

As above i already explained why this "current" leverage will not work out in the long term. On the other side one with that leverage should not complain and make statements like "Turkey is an unreliable Ally" when it first refuses sale of arms to Turkey which later takes the opportunity of procuring alternatives.

[Vanoi]

Turkey can hedge it's bets on Eurofighters if it wants. No guarantee UK will sell you that equipment. Some of that is American equipment. UK can't sell Turkey aircraft like the C-130J without American permission. Nevermind the fact that the UK also wants Sweden into the alliance and backs the YPG in Syria. Why sell Eurofighters to a country hostile to the UK's interest?

Turkey has tried to create domestic arms but much of it still requires foreign equipment like engines to work.

The US has not been shaking the alliance for the last 3 decades. That's utter . If Turkey actually cares about national security it'd stop meeting with Hamas which is a designated terror group by much of it's allies.

Turkey can play the victim all it wants. No falls for it anymore.

That is your perception probably jeopardised by mass media and their counter-productive statements about Turkey. We got even a Thread for that:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!



Obviously they are but how does share the public opinion in US? Did you ask yourself why these People aren´t pro-Turkey in the first term? What are your expectations from them?

The US public does not give one about Turkey or whenever the US will sell them F-16s. Bob Menendez has blocked sales to Turkey for years. It hasn't stopped Democrats from winning elections or even his own.

I can give ask you the same question. Why procure from a country Arms who is hostile to Turkish interests and actively undermining them? Isn´t the core of the problem with Turkish-US relationship more some third-parties who are represented by some lobbyist in US Senate/Congress rather then something really being a Issue between those two?

Bob Menendez is a US senator elected by the American public. Not a lobbyist.

Aren´t the US delivering tons of military material somewhere in Syria to a group which is using a an political agenda of separatist terrorism against Turkey since decades?

The US sends plenty of weapons to the YPG. Not the PKK.

As above i already explained why this "current" leverage will not work out in the long term. On the other side one with that leverage should not complain and make statements like "Turkey is an unreliable Ally" when it first refuses sale of arms to Turkey which later takes the opportunity of procuring alternatives.

I've explained how little Turkey matters to US arms sales. F-16s sell themselves. I guarantee you another country will want F-16s.

[Nebaki]

The US public does not give one about Turkey or whenever the US will sell them F-16s. Bob Menendez has blocked sales to Turkey for years. It hasn't stopped Democrats from winning elections or even his own.

Stopping/Blocking didn´t stop Turkey either following his own political agenda. Probably someone won a election by lobbying for third-party.

Bob Menendez is a US senator elected by the American public. Not a lobbyist.

Did you voted for him or why you act like his advocate? He is indeed a lobbyist nothing else.

The US sends plenty of weapons to the YPG. Not the PKK.

Which is just a off-shore of that mentioned separatist terror group which even got plenty former members of that "Not the" or whatever you believe in that case.

I've explained how little Turkey matters to US arms sales. F-16s sell themselves. I guarantee you another country will want F-16s.

Can you are you ignoring it? F-16s will be on long term not a interest of Turkey anymore. They are just a stop-gap solution for current requierements of Turkish Air Fleet. Since they have the same Model they are first choice of procurement since it is a known Product.

Maybe this does not fit into your perception but on the long-term Turkey will be not dependent on US Arms sale/foreign parts. Then for example a Bob Menendez can even refuse sale of anything which starts with "T" it will be pointless for his short-term political shows.

We already know how already some US-based political institutions started to interupt the Turkish process of an independent Arms Industry. It just slowed it down but not stopped it and even replacements are being found after some time. So your Argument like Turkey desperately needs something from US is not valid.

[Vanoi]

Stopping/Blocking didn´t stop Turkey either following his own political agenda. Probably someone won a election by lobbying for third-party.

You keep telling yourself that but much of Congress doesn't care for Turkey and lobbyists don't need to convince them to do it.

Did you voted for him or why you act like his advocate? He is indeed a lobbyist nothing else.

Explaining who Bob is or how weapons sales work is not me being an advocate. He's a Senator. Not a lobbyist.

Which is just a off-shore of that mentioned separatist terror group which even got plenty former members of that "Not the" or whatever you believe in that case.

The US and rest of NATO do not see the YPG as an offshoot.

Can you are you ignoring it? F-16s will be on long term not a interest of Turkey anymore. They are just a stop-gap solution for current requierements of Turkish Air Fleet. Since they have the same Model they are first choice of procurement since it is a known Product.

Maybe this does not fit into your perception but on the long-term Turkey will be not dependent on US Arms sale/foreign parts. Then for example a Bob Menendez can even refuse sale of anything which starts with "T" it will be pointless for his short-term political shows.

We already know how already some US-based political institutions started to interupt the Turkish process of an independent Arms Industry. It just slowed it down but not stopped it and even replacements are being found after some time. So your Argument like Turkey desperately needs something from US is not valid.

F-16s are still the main fighter of the Turkish Air Force. It will remain an interest of Turkey to acquire F-16s because it at least needs to be able maintain it's current fleet. Turkey can look elsewhere but Turkey doesn't have the money to replace it's main fighter aircraft while training Turkish pilots on a brand new aircraft.

Like I said. Go buy Russian and Chinese. No one is stopping up you.

[PointOfViewGun]

Concerns over UK sales of arms to Turkey are likely baseless and more follows the lines of wishful thinking. Engines are indeed the current Achilles' heel of the Turkish military industry but that's starting to become less of a problem with cooperation with Ukraine and engines received from South Korea as well as various other developments. General Electric already very recently delivered jet engines for the new Turkish fighter jet program.

While UK worked with YPG on the ground before they did not support and arm it the same way and extend USA did. Their involvement was largely limited as they have been much clearer regarding the ties between YPG and PKK. As the British ambassador Chilcott pointed out that they are not naive. They're also very straight forward about Gülen's threat (who fled to USA in 1999 with endorsement from former CIA chief after a videotape of him talking about his followers staying hidden in government till they have enough power to take over) to Turkey.

There is not a single issue stemming from Turkey's stance that undermines USA's national security. On the other side, the issue of YPG/PKK and Gülen undermines Turkey's national security fundamentally. In complete utter stupidity, yet, it is actually USA that's playing the victim here.

[Vanoi]

Concerns over UK sales of arms to Turkey are likely baseless and more follows the lines of wishful thinking. Engines are indeed the current Achilles' heel of the Turkish military industry but that's starting to become less of a problem with cooperation with Ukraine and engines received from South Korea as well as various other developments. General Electric already very recently delivered jet engines for the new Turkish fighter jet program.

I think it's wishful thinking Turkey actually thinks the UK will sell them Eurofighters. Turkey will still need F-16s regardless of their domestic fighter program. Turkey won't be able to replace all of it's F-16s for a decade. The Turkish fighter under development isn't planned to be introduced into the Turkish Air Force until at the earliest being 2028. 2030 if it's late.

While UK worked with YPG on the ground before they did not support and arm it the same way and extend USA did. Their involvement was largely limited as they have been much clearer regarding the ties between YPG and PKK. As the British ambassador Chilcott pointed out that they are not naive. They're also very straight forward about Gülen's threat (who fled to USA in 1999 with endorsement from former CIA chief after a videotape of him talking about his followers staying hidden in government till they have enough power to take over) to Turkey.

And yet it doesn't change the UK generally supports the YPG in Syria. I'm still waiting for Turkey to actually ask for formal extradition of Gulen since he lives in the US. Any day now right?

There is not a single issue stemming from Turkey's stance that undermines USA's national security. On the other side, the issue of YPG/PKK and Gülen undermines Turkey's national security fundamentally. In complete utter stupidity, it is actually USA that's playing the victim here.

Meeting with Hamas doesn't endanger US national security? Plenty of Americans in Israel. Hamas is certainly a threat to them.

[Septentrionalis]

I have a feeling that Nebaki and POVG do not really understand how bad a reputation Turkey has accumulated in the west and how much their standing in NATO is deteriorating. Traditionally, Turkey has been considered a reliable ally because of their commendable participation in NATO projects. As far as the articles I have read are reliable, Turkey has not skimped on contributions like some lackluster European members have. And I am not only talking about defence spending but committing to operations. However, there are increasing calls for Turkey to be excluded from NATO.

Treatment of Kurds in Turkey has been so dismal that most call their policies outright genocidal. It is not hard to imagine why the Kurdish resistance garners sympathy in the west. Even Russia does not treat their ethnic minorities that badly. That said, Finland has denied asylum for Kurds specifically and solely for being members of PKK. Something that Sweden admittedly has not.

It is no secret that the recent western patience with Turkey has been pragmatic instead of motivated by a genuine belief that Turkey stands with the west. Alliances for practical considerations do not carry the same level of trust in future cooperation as alliances based on cultural and ideological compatibility.

Turkey not only bought Russian missile systems, but they continue to buy energy from Russia and do so more than before the conflict at hand emerged. And thus fund the Russian war machine. Turkey has fought US allies in Syria and fired on US positions. Turkey threatens their NATO allies in Greece. Turkey is transforming into an Islamic dictatorship in an alliance of western democracies, and its leader wants potential allies to hand over people for what is very likely going to be an extrajudicial sentencing.

Turkey is undermining the credibility of NATO by freezing membership talks during a serious crisis for internal motivations. Relying on ridiculous excuses such as an individual Danish right-wing nutjob doing an insensitive public performance in Sweden. If some political extremist in Finland or Sweden staged an anti-American performance, that would not affect the US stance on the membership bid one inch. It is obvious that the Turkey of today would not be even considered for NATO membership.

Turkey needs to become a different kind of country than what they are today. If they don't, Turkey will be excommunicated from NATO or another alliance will be forged in the background that excludes them and other NATO members that have turned out to be not worth the trust. The US is already working on one as far as we can tell.

[Nebaki]

Explaining who Bob is or how weapons sales work is not me being an advocate. He's a Senator. Not a lobbyist.

Overall his spouse Nadine Arslanian speaks for recent actions. Isn't this some sort of Honey trapping? How this is consensus with US interests?

So his spouse or his anti-Turkish statements has nothing do with it? Truly not a Senator under some kind of influence

The US and rest of NATO do not see the YPG as an offshoot.

But does the US agree on links between those?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It will remain an interest of Turkey to acquire F-16s because it at least needs to be able maintain it's current fleet.

For that you have a simple trick it is called spare parts. You get them when you already procure a system like F-16 with additional armaments on it to stockpile. Furthermore Turkey is already uprading their own Fleet with homegrown solutions.

Turkey can look elsewhere but Turkey doesn't have the money to replace it's main fighter aircraft while training Turkish pilots on a brand new aircraft.

This nothing else then a inaccurate statement. With that meaning Turkey would be not able even to replace anything of its old equipment. But how it comes the opposite is happening.

Like I said. Go buy Russian and Chinese. No one is stopping up you.

Aren´t you the one who is pointing that out? After all Turkey is already sanctioned:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://2017-2021.state.gov/caatsa-s...ies/index.html

They already decreasing the workload of foreign systems which are dependent on such political struggle with own developments and solutions:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If it continues like this using an embargo/block of sale of military equipment as leverage for some political gain/pressure on a side which you are allied with will on the long term not work out. In addition to that it will even end up with the loss of an opportunity of a arms deal and worsening your relationship with a allied Nation.

Maybe this does not fit into your perception but as mentioned earlier Turkey is already replacing the workload and tasks which a system like F-16 offer with homegrown solutions.

[Vanoi]

So his spouse or his anti-Turkish statements has nothing do with it? Truly not a Senator under some kind of influence

You do know he only just married his current spouse in 2020? He blocked sales to Turkey before that so I don't know why you keep mentioning her. His spouse has nothing to do with his politics. His anti-Turkish stance comes from Turkish actions themselves.

But does the US agree on links between those?

Does the US consider the YPG to be a terror organization?

For that you have a simple track it is called spare parts. You get them when you already procure a system like F-16 with additional armaments on it to stockpile. Furthermore Turkey is already uprading their own Fleet with homegrown solutions.

A procurement program that depends on US defense companies. Who can refuse to sell you parts.

This nothing else then a inaccurate statement. With that meaning Turkey would be not able even to replace anything of its old equipment. But how it comes the opposite is happening.

Turkey does not have the money to replace all 200 plus F-16s it currently fields. Turkey can't even control it's inflation rates. You don't have a chance in replacing every aircraft.

Aren´t you the one who is pointing that out? After all Turkey is already sanctioned:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://2017-2021.state.gov/caatsa-s...ies/index.html

Maybe this does not fit into your perception but as mentioned earlier Turkey is already replacing the workload and
tasks which a system like F-16 offer with homegrown solutions.

Turkey's domestic fighter won't be ready until 2028-2030 and Turkey is not going to have over 200 of these aircraft ready to replace over 200 F-16s in 2030. The F-16 will be needed by Turkey beyond 2030 and that's assuming no delays occur with Turkeys domestic fighter jet.

[Nebaki]

I have a feeling that Nebaki and POVG do not really understand how bad a reputation Turkey has accumulated in the west and how much their standing in NATO is deteriorating.

We are aware of that but do you think Turkey has even today that sort of "reputation" or issues with his allies?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kudos to the Dinosaurs

However, there are increasing calls for Turkey to be excluded from NATO.

From who or which member? Sidenote Finland and Sweden aren´t part of it.

Treatment of Kurds in Turkey has been so dismal that most call their policies outright genocidal. It is not hard to imagine why the Kurdish resistance garners sympathy in the west. Even Russia does not treat their ethnic minorities that badly.

This is simply not true. Turkey even had a President of Kurdish origin. Today Mr. Erdogans Cabinet is including Members of Kurdish origin. How Russia even treats his own people you can see here:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...and-the-Future

It is no secret that the recent western patience with Turkey has been pragmatic instead of motivated by a genuine belief that Turkey stands with the west. Alliances for practical considerations do not carry the same level of trust in future cooperation as alliances based on cultural and ideological compatibility.

Turkey is aware of that but when it acts first in his interest it got blamed especially what we today consider as "West" probably including US & Friends.

Turkey not only bought Russian missile systems, but they continue to buy energy from Russia and do so more than before the conflict at hand emerged. And thus fund the Russian war machine.

Do you know how much dependent Turkey is on russian energy or even some other countries located in Europe? For your instance before Nord Stream 2 was blown up someone didn´t even mind to help. There are enough former Warsaw Pact member now in the NATO-Alliance still using former Soviet-Era Arms. Greece is even operating still today a S-300 System and updating it with russian assistance:

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0N62A720150415

Turkey has fought US allies in Syria and fired on US positions.

Turkey only fought and will fight hostile groups which attacking his territory aswell sovereignty. It is easily to find a Flag of USA and pretend that it would be an US outpost.

Turkey threatens their NATO allies in Greece.

Wrong it is Greece:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Did i mention that we even got that some special sort of Threads?

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?806688-The-Fight-for-Mediterranean-Turkey-Greece-France-Libya-Egypt

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!

Turkey is transforming into an Islamic dictatorship in an alliance of western democracies, and its leader wants potential allies to hand over people for what is very likely going to be an extrajudicial sentencing.

Maybe that is your perception but a friendly reminder that Turkey had always an backround regarding Islam. Well Turkey demanded some sort of People which even migrated under political asylum into some "Nordic" countries. These are including even people when Mr. Erdogan aren´t was in charge. What is the excuse for them?

Turkey is undermining the credibility of NATO by freezing membership talks during a serious crisis for internal motivations.

The Turkish Republics concerns are not internal motivations. Another country called greece veto membership of Macedonia which resulted in a dispute and changing of that countries into North Macedonia on a non-exsistent threat while Turkeys apprehension is reality.

Relying on ridiculous excuses such as an individual Danish right-wing nutjob doing an insensitive public performance in Sweden. If some political extremist in Finland or Sweden staged an anti-American performance, that would not affect the US stance on the membership bid one inch.

No one has the right to insult values ​​that have meaning for the vast majority. This could be religion or something else. It can be discussed, criticized, even claimed to be wrong and tried to refute, but it is essential to do this without insulting. Getting protection from law enforcement while conducting an act of insulting and describing it as a freedom of expression is nothing else then hypocrisy at its finest.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is the swedish Law regarding that Issue:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Source: https://www.government.se/4adb14/con...minal-code.pdf

Overall that Danish guy only is a small detail over an Issue regarding membership application.

It is obvious that the Turkey of today would not be even considered for NATO membership.

Since the rest of members majority are from that known Union called "EU" it would be no suprise.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Neither Turkey would allign himself with above.

Turkey needs to become a different kind of country than what they are today. If they don't, Turkey will be excommunicated from NATO or another alliance will be forged in the background that excludes them and other NATO members that have turned out to be not worth the trust.

Is there a Pope ruling the NATO that can ban people from being a Member? As far as i know Turkey isn´t even under the jurisdiction catholic church. Aren´t there enough examples how NATO behave in such a case?

The US is already working on one as far as we can tell.

The US is working on Alliance which excludes Turkey but will include Sweden and Finland but on the same time it will be alligned with Turkey under NATO? Wonder how this work out

You do know he only just married his current spouse in 2020? He blocked sales to Turkey before that so I don't know why you keep mentioning her. His spouse has nothing to do with his politics. His anti-Turkish stance comes from Turkish actions themselves.

Nah earlier we don´t met with our future Wife or even get in touch it was literally Love on first Sight. Even the Investigations against him from FBI started earlier nearly a decade and is mentioning even his spouse.

Does the US consider the YPG to be a terror organization?

The US is avoiding to give any official statement in that Issue.

A procurement program that depends on US defense companies. Who can refuse to sell you parts.

Do you know what a stockpile is? Beside that Turkey already is intergrating own missile systems (made by Turkish defense companies) into their F-16s or already have done it. There is no dependence like you would assume.

Turkey does not have the money to replace all 200 plus F-16s it currently fields. Turkey can't even control it's inflation rates. You don't have a chance in replacing every aircraft.

With that logic:

This nothing else then a inaccurate statement. With that meaning Turkey would be not able even to replace anything of its old equipment. But how it comes the opposite is happening.

Why do you think that Türkiye's requirements are replacing all of its F-16s? The Future are in unmanned aerial platforms dont you watched the new Top Gun yet?

Turkey's domestic fighter won't be ready until 2028-2030 and Turkey is not going to have over 200 of these aircraft ready to replace over 200 F-16s in 2030. The F-16 will be needed by Turkey beyond 2030 and that's assuming no delays occur with Turkeys domestic fighter jet.

They already decreasing the workload of foreign systems which are dependent on such political struggle with own developments and solutions:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First of all this is not the domestic fighter program which Turkey is currently developing. How do you know that Turkish Air Force is even having plan or shedule for replacing his commissioned F-16s in 2030? There is a simple plan which will include modernizing the existing fleet and improving it with lifecycle updates. Neither nor does Turkey need a accomplishment already being able to replace his F-16 Fleet with homegrown Fighter Project in 2028-2030.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This bird only has one job even if it will stay in a prototype stage and that is only to demonstrate his capabilities.

[Vanoi]

Nah earlier we don´t met with our future Wife or even get in touch it was literally Love on first Sight. Even the Investigations against him from FBI started earlier nearly a decade and is mentioning even his spouse.

A lot of that sounds like opinion with zero evidence behind it other than your very weird obsession with his current wife. Any investigations mentioning his spouse would reference his ex-wife. The crimes he is accused of occured almost a decade ago.

The US is avoiding to give any official statement in that Issue.

The US has an active list of terror groups. The YPG is not on it. This under US law the YPG is not a terrorist group.

Do you know what a stockpile is? Beside that Turkey already is intergrating own missile systems (made by Turkish defense companies) into their F-16s or already have done it. There is no dependence like you would assume

Stockpiles don't last forever lol. Missiles are but one part of the plane. Turkey does not produce all parts and avionics used on F-16s. Planes need more than just missiles.

Why do you think that Türkiye's requirements are replacing all of its F-16s? The Future are in unmanned aerial platforms dont you watched the new Top Gun yet?

Is that why everyone from China to the US and Turkey itself is still developing manned fighters? Didn't anyone tell you movies aren't real life?

First of all this is not the domestic fighter program which Turkey is currently developing. How do you know that Turkish Air Force is even having plan or shedule for replacing his commissioned F-16s in 2030? There is a simple plan which will include modernizing the existing fleet and improving it with lifecycle updates. Neither nor does Turkey need a accomplishment already being able to replace his F-16 Fleet with homegrown Fighter Project in 2028-2030.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This bird only has one job even if it will stay in a prototype stage and that is only to demonstrate his capabilities.

It's Turkey who claims it's current fighter that it is developing is being developed to replace the F-16.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TF-X

Turkey isn't going to build over 200 aircraft between now and 2030. Especially since the fighter itself hasn't even taken it's first flight.

Turkey doesn't have the capability to upgrade the F-16s. If Turkey did it wouldn't need to buy new variant F-16s which it has requested.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/u...rkey-f16s.html

The $20 billion arms package for Turkey would include 40 new F-16 fighter jets and 79 upgrade kits to refurbish the country’s existing fleet of aging F-16s.Greece is asking to buy at least 30 F-35 fighter jets, the most modern planes in the U.S. arsenal.

Turkey wanted to buy 79 upgrade kits for it's current F-16s. It doesn't have the capability to do it themselves.

[StarDreamer]

It seems like it is hard for some Turks to really see how much damage Erdogan is doing to Turkey's reputation in the West.

It might look good for domestic audiences to look "though", but at some point other nations patience with these antics run out.

If western nations would be lead by as thin-skinned and petty leaders as Erdogan Turkey would have been kicked to the curb a long time ago.

Both the US and the UK are some of the biggest proponents of Sweden's and Finland's bid to join NATO, neither of them will be supplying any fighters to Turkey as long as this charade goes on.

[Gyrosmeister]

We are aware of that but do you think Turkey has even today that sort of "reputation" or issues with his allies?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kudos to the Dinosaurs




From who or which member? Sidenote Finland and Sweden aren´t part of it.



This is simply not true. Turkey even had a President of Kurdish origin. Today Mr. Erdogans Cabinet is including Members of Kurdish origin. How Russia even treats his own people you can see here:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...and-the-Future



Turkey is aware of that but when it acts first in his interest it got blamed especially what we today consider as "West" probably including US & Friends.




Do you know how much dependent Turkey is on russian energy or even some other countries located in Europe? For your instance before Nord Stream 2 was blown up someone didn´t even mind to help. There are enough former Warsaw Pact member now in the NATO-Alliance still using former Soviet-Era Arms. Greece is even operating still today a S-300 System and updating it with russian assistance:

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0N62A720150415



Turkey only fought and will fight hostile groups which attacking his territory aswell sovereignty. It is easily to find a Flag of USA and pretend that it would be an US outpost.



Wrong it is Greece:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Did i mention that we even got that some special sort of Threads?

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?806688-The-Fight-for-Mediterranean-Turkey-Greece-France-Libya-Egypt

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...blicity-here)!





Maybe that is your perception but a friendly reminder that Turkey had always an backround regarding Islam. Well Turkey demanded some sort of People which even migrated under political asylum into some "Nordic" countries. These are including even people when Mr. Erdogan aren´t was in charge. What is the excuse for them?



The Turkish Republics concerns are not internal motivations. Another country called greece veto membership of Macedonia which resulted in a dispute and changing of that countries into North Macedonia on a non-exsistent threat while Turkeys apprehension is reality.





Overall that Danish guy only is a small detail over an Issue regarding membership application.



Since the rest of members majority are from that known Union called "EU" it would be no suprise.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Neither Turkey would allign himself with above.




Is there a Pope ruling the NATO that can ban people from being a Member? As far as i know Turkey isn´t even under the jurisdiction catholic church. Aren´t there enough examples how NATO behave in such a case?




The US is working on Alliance which excludes Turkey but will include Sweden and Finland but on the same time it will be alligned with Turkey under NATO? Wonder how this work out




Nah earlier we don´t met with our future Wife or even get in touch it was literally Love on first Sight. Even the Investigations against him from FBI started earlier nearly a decade and is mentioning even his spouse.



The US is avoiding to give any official statement in that Issue.



Do you know what a stockpile is? Beside that Turkey already is intergrating own missile systems (made by Turkish defense companies) into their F-16s or already have done it. There is no dependence like you would assume.



With that logic:



Why do you think that Türkiye's requirements are replacing all of its F-16s? The Future are in unmanned aerial platforms dont you watched the new Top Gun yet?





First of all this is not the domestic fighter program which Turkey is currently developing. How do you know that Turkish Air Force is even having plan or shedule for replacing his commissioned F-16s in 2030? There is a simple plan which will include modernizing the existing fleet and improving it with lifecycle updates. Neither nor does Turkey need a accomplishment already being able to replace his F-16 Fleet with homegrown Fighter Project in 2028-2030.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This bird only has one job even if it will stay in a prototype stage and that is only to demonstrate his capabilities.

When was the last time a Greek politician of a ruling government posed with a map like this? Please let me know.


When was the last time a head of government said that we will hit Ankara with ballistic missiles? Let me know.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...n-islands-NATO

[Septentrionalis]

We are aware of that but do you think Turkey has even today that sort of "reputation" or issues with his allies?

It seems like it is hard for some Turks to really see how much damage Erdogan is doing to Turkey's reputation in the West.

It might look good for domestic audiences to look "though", but at some point other nations patience with these antics run out.

Seeing that Nebaki really is unaware of how they are viewed namely by their allies today, I took the trouble of digging up some articles from recent years. There is more where that came from. Of course there are opposing views, but I doubt a single other NATO member is in such a bad standing as Turkey.

Why Is Turkey Still in NATO?
NATO needs to have a serious conversation about what to do when a member can no longer be trusted.

The U.S. and rest of NATO should stop catering to Turkey. If the alliance is serious, it should insist on members’ loyalty to other members and their willingness to join collective action against a presumed antagonist. If a government’s behavior significantly diverges from the alliance’s objectives, other members should consider ousting that state—and forging more realistic cooperative arrangements for the future.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/why-turkey-still-nato

Don’t Let Erdogan Slow NATO Enlargement

If mild rebukes fail to change Erdogan’s behavior, harsher punishments should be considered. NATO rules don’t allow a member to be expelled, but Erdogan’s willful disregard for the collective good suggests the need to revisit those rules. French President Emmanuel Macron has proposed a revision of the rules of the European Union, which likewise don’t allow expulsions; Biden could send up a similar trial balloon for NATO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...c54_story.html

Time to Kick Turkey Out of NATO?
The mess in Syria only confirms an inconvenient truth: The Turks are no longer reliable allies.

The crisis in Kobane once again brings the challenge of Turkey into sharp relief. Despite the best efforts of Washington and other coalition members to bring Turkey along, it now appears clear: Turkey under the AKP is a lost cause. It is simply not a partner for NATO. Nor is it a partner in the fight against the Islamic State.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...f-nato-111734/

It's Time to Kick Erdogan's Turkey Out of NATO

But it's too little, too late. NATO shouldn't come to Turkey's defense - instead, it should begin proceedings immediately to determine if the lengthy and growing list of Turkish transgressions against the West, including its support for Islamic terrorists, have merit. And if they do - and they most certainly do - the Alliance's supreme decision-making body, the North Atlantic Council, should formally oust Turkey from NATO for good before its belligerence and continual aggression drags the international community into World War III.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-t...gans_b_9300670

A former United States' National Security Advisor has called on the NATO military alliance to expel Turkiye and give support to its opposition parties, accusing it of not acting like an ally.

He urged the West to take "bold action to help ensure his domestic opposition gets a fair shake in upcoming presidential elections" this year, adding that "Turkish voters will have a chance to take their country".

Despite acknowledging that NATO's "founding charter doesn't provide for expulsion or suspension", his recommendation in helping overthrow Erdogan is to have the alliance "put Ankara's membership on the chopping block" and to "make clear that Turkiye's failure to conduct free and fair elections would be the final trigger in deciding whether to revoke its NATO membership".

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...-like-an-ally/

It’s time to expel Turkey from Nato

In short, Turkey is making fewer attempts to disguise its increasingly Islamist and authoritarian tendencies, and is actively working against Western interests.

Why then has Nato not yet acted against its bellicose member? The obvious solution would be to have Turkey ejected from the alliance, a move which would show that Nato has the courage of its own convictions and will not tolerate members which have, effectively, become hostile powers.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...key-from-nato/

Time To Kick Turkey Out Of NATO

It is time to consider kicking Turkey out of NATO, regardless of how difficult and complicated this far-reaching measure may be. Turkey has long since forsaken Western values while becoming an increasingly zealous Islamic state. Indeed, contrary to Erdogan’s manipulative narrative about Turkey’s presumed democracy, the country under his watch is governed by an authoritarian regime that has no place among Western democracies.

The violation of free press and the systematic undermining of human rights demands that the West reevaluate its relationship with Turkey and stop searching for excuses to justify its self-conceit about Erdogan’s outrageous behavior.

https://www.jpost.com/blogs/above-th...of-nato-513757

Lindsey Graham says Congress will call for Turkey to be suspended from NATO and hit it with sanctions if it attacks Kurds

https://www.businessinsider.com/lind...9-10?r=US&IR=T

Can Turkey be Expelled from NATO? It’s Legally Possible, Whether or Not Politically Prudent

https://www.justsecurity.org/66574/c...led-from-nato/

Is NATO sidelining Turkey?

Erdoğan no longer views NATO as a reliable organization since it withdrew its Patriot missile batteries from Turkey in 2015 despite Turkey’s concerns regarding the threat of Russia emanating from Syria.

There is a growing perception among the Turkish public that NATO has started seeing Kurds and Greeks as better allies than Turks. The leaders of NATO members who warned Erdoğan over Turkey’s military operation in Syria targeting Kurds in October 2019 may indicate that Western countries consider the Kurds a better ally than the Turks against ISIL. An increase in the defense cooperation between the US and Greece has also been a source of some degree of panic for Turkey, which remains in a dispute with Greece over the Aegean islands.

https://turkishminute.com/2022/09/08/delining-turkey/

Majority of Germans want Turkey out of NATO: survey

A new survey shows that 58% of Germans want Turkey expelled from NATO over the recent military offensive in Syria. There is even stronger German support for economic sanctions and export bans against the country.

https://www.dw.com/en/majority-of-ge...vey/a-51030130

Letter: Nato should be ready to suspend Turkey’s membership

https://www.ft.com/content/f6292e9a-...8-b175a873dbec

[PointOfViewGun]

I have a feeling that Nebaki and POVG do not really understand how bad a reputation Turkey has accumulated in the west and how much their standing in NATO is deteriorating. Traditionally, Turkey has been considered a reliable ally because of their commendable participation in NATO projects. As far as the articles I have read are reliable, Turkey has not skimped on contributions like some lackluster European members have. And I am not only talking about defence spending but committing to operations. However, there are increasing calls for Turkey to be excluded from NATO.

Treatment of Kurds in Turkey has been so dismal that most call their policies outright genocidal. It is not hard to imagine why the Kurdish resistance garners sympathy in the west. Even Russia does not treat their ethnic minorities that badly. That said, Finland has denied asylum for Kurds specifically and solely for being members of PKK. Something that Sweden admittedly has not.

It is no secret that the recent western patience with Turkey has been pragmatic instead of motivated by a genuine belief that Turkey stands with the west. Alliances for practical considerations do not carry the same level of trust in future cooperation as alliances based on cultural and ideological compatibility.

Turkey not only bought Russian missile systems, but they continue to buy energy from Russia and do so more than before the conflict at hand emerged. And thus fund the Russian war machine. Turkey has fought US allies in Syria and fired on US positions. Turkey threatens their NATO allies in Greece. Turkey is transforming into an Islamic dictatorship in an alliance of western democracies, and its leader wants potential allies to hand over people for what is very likely going to be an extrajudicial sentencing.

Turkey is undermining the credibility of NATO by freezing membership talks during a serious crisis for internal motivations. Relying on ridiculous excuses such as an individual Danish right-wing nutjob doing an insensitive public performance in Sweden. If some political extremist in Finland or Sweden staged an anti-American performance, that would not affect the US stance on the membership bid one inch. It is obvious that the Turkey of today would not be even considered for NATO membership.

Turkey needs to become a different kind of country than what they are today. If they don't, Turkey will be excommunicated from NATO or another alliance will be forged in the background that excludes them and other NATO members that have turned out to be not worth the trust. The US is already working on one as far as we can tell.

The irrational hatred towards Turkey is indeed an important phenomenon and Erdoğan's presence merely makes it convenient. The irrationality gets extra obvious given how people try twist and turn to ignore or alter basic facts or standards to treat Turkey differently. That is sadly apparent from your post as well. Accusations of genocide against Kurds has the same line of logic as Russians accused Ukrainians of genocide against Russians. The hyperbole exposes the irrationality by itself. The problems with treatment of Kurds is more of a rights issue that extends to any unfavorable party in the society which is more akin to how black people are treated in USA. Yet, we had a Kurdic prime minister and president three decades ago, just like we had a woman prime minister around the same time.

As someone who felt the shockwave of bomb detonated by PKK near my football teams stadium first hand I know very well where the thrust issues fall. Did anyone question Greece's place in NATO after PKK leader Öcalan got caught leaving the Greek embassy in Kenya carrying a Greek Cypriot passport? Was France's place in NATO questioned when they supported Haftar alongside Russia and their Wagner Group? Any questions about USA's commitment to NATO when they trained and aided PKK's Syrian branch YPG? Anyone talked about Greece's place in NATO when a Greek minister threatened to send terrorists to central Europe? Who asked about Germany or France's place in NATO when they sold arms to Russia while it was invading Ukraine? Perhaps someone asked about Greece's place in NATO after it was found out that Greece wiretapped many European leaders? Does anyone question USA's place in NATO when Gülen, heading a clandestine organization that eroded Turkish institutions causing deaths of many, had to flee Turkey in 1999 after video tapes of him giving speeches where he calls for his followers to stay hidden and rise in secrecy in the Turkish government to take over it in the future, was given a safe haven ever since in Philadelphia with endorsement on his green card application from a CIA officer, head of national intelligence council and the ambassador to Turkey? How much more obvious does it have to get?

The list goes on and on. Somehow its only Turkey that shakes the alliance. A wrong cough by a Turkish man and suddenly Turks are claimed to be on the march against Europe. You mention buying energy from Russia, even though Turkey have been greatly reducing reliability from Russia even before the offensive of 2022, yet it was European nations that tried to exclude Russian energy from the sanctions. It's been Greek tankers that have been carrying Russian oil. So on and on and on...

People need to a reality check quick. They make the mistake of using Erdoğan as an excuse to be hostile about Turkey in general. It will not sit well once Erdoğan is gone.

[Gyrosmeister]

The irrational hatred towards Turkey is indeed an important phenomenon and Erdoğan's presence merely makes it convenient. The irrationality gets extra obvious given how people try twist and turn to ignore or alter basic facts or standards to treat Turkey differently. That is sadly apparent from your post as well. Accusations of genocide against Kurds has the same line of logic as Russians accused Ukrainians of genocide against Russians. The hyperbole exposes the irrationality by itself. The problems with treatment of Kurds is more of a rights issue that extends to any unfavorable party in the society which is more akin to how black people are treated in USA. Yet, we had a Kurdic prime minister and president three decades ago, just like we had a woman prime minister around the same time.

As someone who felt the shockwave of bomb detonated by PKK near my football teams stadium first hand I know very well where the thrust issues fall. Did anyone question Greece's place in NATO after PKK leader Öcalan got caught leaving the Greek embassy in Kenya carrying a Greek Cypriot passport? Was France's place in NATO questioned when they supported Haftar alongside Russia and their Wagner Group? Any questions about USA's commitment to NATO when they trained and aided PKK's Syrian branch YPG? Anyone talked about Greece's place in NATO when a Greek minister threatened to send terrorists to central Europe? Who asked about Germany or France's place in NATO when they sold arms to Russia while it was invading Ukraine? Perhaps someone asked about Greece's place in NATO after it was found out that Greece wiretapped many European leaders? Does anyone question USA's place in NATO when Gülen, heading a clandestine organization that eroded Turkish institutions causing deaths of many, had to flee Turkey in 1999 after video tapes of him giving speeches where he calls for his followers to stay hidden and rise in secrecy in the Turkish government to take over it in the future, was given a safe haven ever since in Philadelphia with endorsement on his green card application from a CIA officer, head of national intelligence council and the ambassador to Turkey? How much more obvious does it have to get?

The list goes on and on. Somehow its only Turkey that shakes the alliance. A wrong cough by a Turkish man and suddenly Turks are claimed to be on the march against Europe. You mention buying energy from Russia, even though Turkey have been greatly reducing reliability from Russia even before the offensive of 2022, yet it was European nations that tried to exclude Russian energy from the sanctions. It's been Greek tankers that have been carrying Russian oil. So on and on and on...

People need to a reality check quick. They make the mistake of using Erdoğan as an excuse to be hostile about Turkey in general. It will not sit well once Erdoğan is gone.

"Wiretapping European leaders". The whole wiretapping scandal mainly involves some ministers and an opposition politician of PASOK (in fact its party leader, Androulakis, you may know PASOK from Eva Kaili and the Qatargate scandal -and no, this isn't restricted to the Mitsotakis government, the Tsipras government (you probably know this guy since he makes all the time headlines on Turkish press when he opposes the armament programmes) had also done wiretapping on KKE aswell, but the matter of our National Intelligence Service being a swiss cheese is a different one-). I don't know how you deduct that in that wiretapping scandal there were Scholz, Macron etc etc wiretapped.

And about those migrants/refugees. Wasn't Turkey paid billions from the EU to house them in Turkey in the first place? There is a fine difference between making that statement once (like Kammenos), and doing it over and over again. And the full statement from Kammenos read:

Η Ευρώπη πρέπει να συνειδητοποιήσει ότι διατηρώντας την Ελλάδα σταθερή, το μέτωπο της Δύσης κατά του Ισλαμικού Κράτους (ISIS) είναι ασφαλές. Αλλά αν εκδιωχθεί ή αναγκαστεί να βγει από την Ευρωζώνη, κύματα μεταναστών χωρίς χαρτιά, συμπεριλαμβανομένων ριζοσπαστικών στοιχείων, θα ξεχυθούν από την Τουρκία, οδεύοντας προς την καρδιά της Δύσης.

"Europe must realize that keeping Greece stable, the front of the West against ISIS is safe. But if it is expelled, or if it is forced to leave the Eurozone, waves of illegal immigrants, including extremists, will come from Turkey into the heart of the West"

I am not defending Kammenos here (in my opinion, that guy was an utter idiot), nor his statement which was completely wrong and vulgar. But you point the finger at Greece, with that one single statement, when it comes to that when Turkey has been using migrants as political tools over and over again. Some examples:

https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...gainst-europe/

https://www.dw.com/en/dont-weaponize...key/a-50794532

https://www.france24.com/en/20200303...-opens-borders

https://www.rferl.org/a/turkey-erdog.../30258718.html

You want me to keep going, or are you still oblivious to the elephant in the room?

[Septentrionalis]

Accusations of genocide against Kurds

Thank you for taking the trouble to express your point of view at length. I don't want to have an irrational hatred towards Turks, but the things I read about Turkey just make me feel that we have different interpretations of morality and ethics.

If you look at the following Wikipedia article, are those descriptions of the treatment of Kurds in past decades and now generally correct or incorrect?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ople_in_Turkey

Somehow its only Turkey that shakes the alliance.

If you find yourself in an alliance in which all the others see you as a detractor and criticize your actions time and again, isn't that an expected outcome of you being in the wrong alliance?

Just to try to illustrate, if you say that US is not committed to NATO for allying themselves in Syria with YPG, you are equating the rather unique Turkish point of view with that of NATO and accuse US of breaking the alliance's principles. But the fact is that the US does not have a problem with YPG or Kurds in general. The US has a problem with Turkey attacking YPG (and US positions). 28 NATO countries out of 30 ratified Sweden even though Sweden goes as far as to allow PKK demonstrations. Because they don't have a problem with Kurds.

Many consider Kurdish resistance a consequence of the kind of treatment Kurds have received that is against NATO's founding values. My personal experience with the two ethnicities (both are numerous where I live) is such that I actually prefer the company of Turks over that of Kurds, and not for some petty, superficial reasons. I thought quite long before writing that, because these days any expressions of preference in ethnicity are so inflammable. But I did so just to underline that I am not on a pro-Kurdish mission here. My issue is with the general principle of how people like me would like minorities to be treated. If you want, I can elaborate on how traditional, native linguistic and cultural minorities are treated here.

This is also not just about a blame game against the Turks. I think Turkey should also understand that they are allied with nations that do not care about the Turkish concerns with Kurdish insurgents. Especially, they do not respect the thinking that anything having to do with YPG, speaking the Kurdish language, or demanding Kurdish cultural autonomy are equal with PKK and thus promoting terrorism and separatism. Or worth a 15-year imprisonment for a parliamentary member speaking Kurdish in an inauguration. They also do not appreciate Turkish religious sensitivities to the extent Erdogan would like to, and they find Turkey's present style of governing a nation dictatorial.

I don't think that there should be any kinds of hostilities in between Turkey and the west, but there are no lasting grounds for being allied. Turkey blocking the NATO bids of Finland and Sweden is only eliciting further distrust towards Turkey, because Turkey's present concerns are not shared in the west.

[PointOfViewGun]

Thank you for taking the trouble to express your point of view at length. I don't want to have an irrational hatred towards Turks, but the things I read about Turkey just make me feel that we have different interpretations of morality and ethics.
If you look at the following Wikipedia article, are those descriptions of the treatment of Kurds in past decades and now generally correct or incorrect?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ople_in_Turkey

Literally, the only issue your link references to from past decade is the closure of a number of political parties for allegedly containing the name Kurdistan in them while some of the named parties continue to operate to this day as the sources that are used for the statement of their closure does not mention their closure but opening of their court case or the allegations themselves. The term of genocide is only used in context of cultural genocide and your link contains the statement saying that no nation or organization have endorsed such a view. Simply typing "Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey" and then posting the first link without reading assuming that it will contain damning evidence is a problematic argumentation tactic...

If you find yourself in an alliance in which all the others see you as a detractor and criticize your actions time and again, isn't that an expected outcome of you being in the wrong alliance?

Just to try to illustrate, if you say that US is not committed to NATO for allying themselves in Syria with YPG, you are equating the rather unique Turkish point of view with that of NATO and accuse US of breaking the alliance's principles. But the fact is that the US does not have a problem with YPG or Kurds in general. The US has a problem with Turkey attacking YPG (and US positions). 28 NATO countries out of 30 ratified Sweden even though Sweden goes as far as to allow PKK demonstrations. Because they don't have a problem with Kurds.

Many consider Kurdish resistance a consequence of the kind of treatment Kurds have received that is against NATO's founding values. My personal experience with the two ethnicities (both are numerous where I live) is such that I actually prefer the company of Turks over that of Kurds, and not for some petty, superficial reasons. I thought quite long before writing that, because these days any expressions of preference in ethnicity are so inflammable. But I did so just to underline that I am not on a pro-Kurdish mission here. My issue is with the general principle of how people like me would like minorities to be treated. If you want, I can elaborate on how traditional, native linguistic and cultural minorities are treated here.

This is also not just about a blame game against the Turks. I think Turkey should also understand that they are allied with nations that do not care about the Turkish concerns with Kurdish insurgents. Especially, they do not respect the thinking that anything having to do with YPG, speaking the Kurdish language, or demanding Kurdish cultural autonomy are equal with PKK and thus promoting terrorism and separatism. Or worth a 15-year imprisonment for a parliamentary member speaking Kurdish in an inauguration. They also do not appreciate Turkish religious sensitivities to the extent Erdogan would like to, and they find Turkey's present style of governing a nation dictatorial.

I don't think that there should be any kinds of hostilities in between Turkey and the west, but there are no lasting grounds for being allied. Turkey blocking the NATO bids of Finland and Sweden is only eliciting further distrust towards Turkey, because Turkey's present concerns are not shared in the west.

Yet, here you are, almost trying to justify terrorism because its the kind of terrorism that you do not care about. You talk of NATO allies not caring about Turkish national security in a discussion where you hold the position of criticizing Turkey for not caring enough about Sweden's national security concerns by not allowing them into the alliance. This is some messed up entitlement mentality in play here. You also try to jumble up Kurds with PKK. No one talks about Kurds being Kurds or speaking Kurdic languages. What I pointed out is propaganda done under PKK banners, bank accounts used by PKK members, etc. What's funny is that your conclusion isn't even true for your own country. Finland did not act the same as Sweden. It has always been pointed out and quite recently Turkish government started giving green light on separating Finland's application from that of Sweden.

[Nebaki]

your very weird obsession with his current wife.

So her ethnic backround has nothing to do with his anti-Turkish motives?

The US has an active list of terror groups. The YPG is not on it. This under US law the YPG is not a terrorist group.

This does not change the fact they are indeed an offshoot of a separatist terror group.

Stockpiles don't last forever lol. Missiles are but one part of the plane. Turkey does not produce all parts and avionics used on F-16s. Planes need more than just missiles.

This is true. But Turkey builded most of his F-16s under license and it even for another Nations like Egypt or Pakistan are manufactured in Turkish facilities. It will not have any trouble to sustain his current F-16 Fleet like you would assume. An Issue like that is not existent.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/06...us-technology/

Is that why everyone from China to the US and Turkey itself is still developing manned fighters? Didn't anyone tell you movies aren't real life?

The reference from Movie was picked because you clearly show an non-understanding of the Issue regarding the Military of Turkey or future of Aerial Warfare. A friendly advice to check the recent developments where it will be heading in future.

It's Turkey who claims it's current fighter that it is developing is being developed to replace the F-16.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TF-X

Claims made by someone or summarized in a Wikipedia Article around the subject of a Fighter from older news which is still in WIP. Probably it is aimed to replace some tasks of the F-16 but this will only happen when serial production will start and prototype stage is accomplished. Your Argument was that Turkey needs to replace something now and got invalidated.

Turkey isn't going to build over 200 aircraft between now and 2030. Especially since the fighter itself hasn't even taken it's first flight.

How did you figured that out. First ask yourself does Turkey needs to build now a new Fighter? It seems to be that your interested in Turkish development of Aerial Vehicles. Be sure that this Fighter will fly soon. But it is hard to understand why you pointing this out since it is a plane which is build to fly.

Turkey doesn't have the capability to upgrade the F-16s. If Turkey did it wouldn't need to buy new variant F-16s which it has requested.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/u...rkey-f16s.html

Turkey wanted to buy 79 upgrade kits for it's current F-16s. It doesn't have the capability to do it themselves.

Wrong. Turkey has not the capability to upgrade some of it´s current F-16s models into Block 70 Variant.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Maybe ask yourself while anytime and at any possibility repeating something like that:

Like I said. Go buy Russian and Chinese. No one is stopping up you.

Wouldn´t be wrong first ask Nations first which you are allied with before stepping into alternatives? If you would get an refusal from your own Allies can they still blame you when go and procure arms from a third-party? After all you asked them atleast.