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Thread: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

  1. #221
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Putin has basically achieved the nightmare scenario for Russia in the Baltic already, even if Sweden doesn't join NATO, because Sweden is already a member of the EU, and has a joint air force deal signed with Norway, Denmark, and Finland just recently: Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark struck a deal to run their 200+ advanced fighter jets as a single fleet, creating a new headache for Russia

  2. #222

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Meanwhile Sanna Marin, the PM who decided that Finland should join NATO, just lost the elections. That's a shame, she was easily the world's hottest leader.
    More like one of the world's dumbest leader but as you wish you can follow her OnlyFans career. She and her Party were literally biggest anti-NATO party in Finland since ages. Her anti-NATO sentiment was recently since 2022 present. They only changed their minds about it after the invasion happened.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 










    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Note, she lost not because of NATO, but because of her lets say "open-ended spending policy". Of those 8 parliamentarians who voted against joining NATO only 3 were elected back into parliament, all from one party "The Left Alliance". And the party she lost to(National coalition party) has been and still is the strongest proponent of NATO in Finland. Essentially this election did not become a NATO election, but an election focused on left-right economics.
    Aren´t the National Coalition Party (NCP) is and has always been the most pro-NATO party in Finland? Even among them two recently retired Generals now part of the Finnish Parliament. Overall the deciding Factor was again economic policy and large scale illegal immigration next to Finnish Border called Sweden.

  3. #223
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    More like one of the world's dumbest leader but as you wish you can follow her OnlyFans career. She and her Party were literally biggest anti-NATO party in Finland since ages. Her anti-NATO sentiment was recently since 2022 present. They only changed their minds about it after the invasion happened.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 












    Aren´t the National Coalition Party (NCP) is and has always been the most pro-NATO party in Finland? Even among them two recently retired Generals now part of the Finnish Parliament. Overall the deciding Factor was again economic policy and large scale illegal immigration next to Finnish Border called Sweden.
    They(NCP) and the Swedish peoples party are the parties that have long held a pro-NATO position. And yes as I said economic policy mainly decided this. Ofcourse the party that came second would say it was also about immigration, quite frankly I think it was more of a sideshow with economic policy dominating.

    The biggest anti-NATO party was and is "The Left Alliance". The SDP and Center party could have been said to have been the power of inertia/status-quo. With Marin herself being stupid enough to say outloud that Finland would be highy unlikely to join during her coalition. when the buildup to the Russian invasion was already apparent and Russia decided to try to dictate to itself a sphere. She was a very reactive leader with no apparent foresight always seeming to scramble here and there. Also speaking a bit too openly on matters that should first have been discussed inside the government.
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  4. #224
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    More like one of the world's dumbest leader but as you wish you can follow her OnlyFans career.
    One doesn't exclude the other. But dumb leaders are a dime a dozen. Hot leaders not so much. So I'm focusing on the more interesting part. Also if she did make an OnlyFans account I'm sure she'd be quite the hit.

    Either way, as far as Finland and NATO goes it is now official:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65173043
    Russia promised retaliation of course, but at this point I'm not sure there is anything they can do, nor to be honest do I see much of a qualitative difference. Finland was already a part of the western defensive umbrella anyway. Via numerous avenues. NATO is just the cherry on top.
    Last edited by Alastor; April 05, 2023 at 02:47 AM.

  5. #225

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Russia promised retaliation of course, but at this point I'm not sure there is anything they can do, nor to be honest do I see much of a qualitative difference. Finland was already a part of the western defensive umbrella anyway. Via numerous avenues. NATO is just the cherry on top.
    Well they can still do something since NATO-Clausels does not directly apply on a Border conflict or when just a Member is threaten by a Nuclear Power. If half of Finland gets invaded but Capital is still unoccupied they will probably support it with Arms aswell with some No-fly zone denying Russia any flight over that Territory.

    Nobody will go and declear first a new World War to another Nuclear Power. First Russia must be the one who is gonna declearing to all Members or atleast to USA to get full NATO support on his own territory. They are totally aware of that and already stressed the Alliance once then more.

    On other hand Finland's NATO membership alleviates only a small part of Sweden's concerns. These problems are around the North Sea and the Baltic Sea, not on land.

  6. #226
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well they can still do something since NATO-Clausels does not directly apply on a Border conflict or when just a Member is threaten by a Nuclear Power. If half of Finland gets invaded but Capital is still unoccupied they will probably support it with Arms aswell with some No-fly zone denying Russia any flight over that Territory.

    Nobody will go and declear first a new World War to another Nuclear Power. First Russia must be the one who is gonna declearing to all Members or atleast to USA to get full NATO support on his own territory. They are totally aware of that and already stressed the Alliance once then more.

    On other hand Finland's NATO membership alleviates only a small part of Sweden's concerns. These problems are around the North Sea and the Baltic Sea, not on land.
    There are no disputed territories to have a "border war" on, any military attack on Finland would be a declaration of war on the entire NATO or NATO is pointless and might as well not exist.

    "Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."

    Don't see anything about any border wars, or if there is a nuclear power involved we won't really do anything.

    Anyways Russia will once again shout and say they will do stuff, but they are toothless here.
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  7. #227

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    There are no disputed territories to have a "border war" on, any military attack on Finland would be a declaration of war on the entire NATO or NATO is pointless and might as well not exist.
    From your point of view maybe there is no disputed territories. Maybe there will be a unfjusitfied claim/undecleared war against which can be defined as a special operation like in the case of Ukraine. On the same time we are talking about same NATO which got upset because some of their already Members rejected membership application of a non-member State which was openly supporting and being a safe-shelter for hostile groups/terrorists/enemies who reject his sovereignty.

    In case of Finland there was still embargo upholded until a few days ago. Was this not even some kind of pointless act?

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    "Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."
    Which continues with Article 6 which is mandatory for Article 5. In case of Falklands War those territories belongend to United Kingdom one of the founding Members of NATO. But in that case Anglo-Saxons were on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Don't see anything about any border wars, or if there is a nuclear power involved we won't really do anything.
    Who is we a newly formed Northern Alliance? a few pages in this Thread we already stated what would be happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post

    Anyways Russia will once again shout and say they will do stuff, but they are toothless here.
    Well currently they are toothless but it is not first time when they threaten a country before which resulted later in a Total War.

  8. #228
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    From your point of view maybe there is no disputed territories. Maybe there will be a unfjusitfied claim/undecleared war against which can be defined as a special operation like in the case of Ukraine. On the same time we are talking about same NATO which got upset because some of their already Members rejected membership application of a non-member State which was openly supporting and being a safe-shelter for hostile groups/terrorists/enemies who reject his sovereignty.

    In case of Finland there was still embargo upholded until a few days ago. Was this not even some kind of pointless act?



    Which continues with Article 6 which is mandatory for Article 5. In case of Falklands War those territories belongend to United Kingdom one of the founding Members of NATO. But in that case Anglo-Saxons were on its own.



    Who is we a newly formed Northern Alliance? a few pages in this Thread we already stated what would be happen.



    Well currently they are toothless but it is not first time when they threaten a country before which resulted later in a Total War.
    The Falklands are outside the North Atlantic area and is not covered by NATO, so GB did not even try to trigger article 5. Bad example.
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  9. #229

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    The Falklands are outside the North Atlantic area and is not covered by NATO, so GB did not even try to trigger article 5. Bad example.
    It is argued that Argentina's intention to give up paying its debts to American and British banks, and the fear that other debt-ridden third world countries may follow Argentina and drag the entire neo-liberal financial system to a collapse also played a role in the outbreak of the war in question.

    Furthermore English efforts to get NATO power behind it were inconclusive only because of America's support. Therefore, for the first time, the problem of NATO's out-of-area intervention arose with this event.


    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Bad example.
    Only if this would be a Issue in 2022/2023 but that timeframe was called Cold War period and there was not Russia but Soviet Union as opponent. So different parameters apply there.
    Last edited by Nebaki; April 30, 2023 at 02:41 AM.

  10. #230
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Furthermore England's efforts to get NATO power behind it were inconclusive only because of America's support. Therefore, for the first time, the problem of NATO's out-of-area intervention arose with this event.
    England's?
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  11. #231
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    England's?
    We all know the Manx really hold the threads of power in the UK.

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  12. #232

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Fun fact: In Turkey, England is used interchangeably with United Kingdom.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #233
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Fun fact: In Turkey, England is used interchangeably with United Kingdom.
    The English don't even have their own parliament. They're a province at best.
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  14. #234
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    The English don't even have their own parliament. They're a province at best.
    We all call them English. Way too often, when someone that is not from England UK says "England" they mean the UK or even the entire Commonwealth. For Example you will often hear people talking to each other saying that "Indians are English citizens"

    That said, back to Turkey: It's not just Sweden and Finland nowdays. Spain and Poland withdrew from a joint exercise with Turkey.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  15. #235

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    That said, back to Turkey: It's not just Sweden and Finland nowdays. Spain and Poland withdrew from a joint exercise with Turkey.
    This is quite unrelated to the topic at hand if you bother to read the details of it. What's really funny is Kathimerini's portrayal of Northern Cyprus as a "Pseudo-Communist" state.
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  16. #236
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This is quite unrelated to the topic at hand if you bother to read the details of it. What's really funny is Kathimerini's portrayal of Northern Cyprus as a "Pseudo-Communist" state.
    It is related to the topic of the thread though.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  17. #237

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    It is related to the topic of the thread though.
    Nope. Not at all. As its completely unrelated the article doesn't even mention Sweden or Finland or the issue between them and Turkey.
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  18. #238
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    NATO is a defensive military alliance.
    Not really. The formation of NATO helped intensify and institutionalize the Cold War.The Warsaw Pact not created until 1955, six years later. If I remember well, NATO did not have the backing of the UN Security Council to use force in Yugoslavia.NATO invasion of Afghanistan was not legal under international law.
    For some reason, the North Atlantic Treaty is also known as the Washington Treaty.And,BTW, the original 12 members were Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, fascist Portugal, the U.K., (and of course, the US); as someone has put it, an all-star league of European colonialism.The original version of the Washington Treaty specifies that it applied to any attack on "the Algerian Departments of France".
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    If Turkey was a Christian nation it would long have been an EU member state.Of course, Turkey is good enough to protect the western values of Europe with its huge Muslim army.
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  19. #239
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    NATO did not bomb Yugoslavia and did not invade Afghanistan. The US did together with a coalition of the willing.

    If Turkey was a Christian nation it would long have been an EU member state.Of course, Turkey is good enough to protect the western values of Europe with its huge Muslim army.
    If Turkey was not a radicalised nation with openly anti-European values that has open conflicts with two other EU member states and supports totalitarianism, it would have already been an EU member state.
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  20. #240
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. Not at all. As its completely unrelated the article doesn't even mention Sweden or Finland or the issue between them and Turkey.
    The major issues Swedes and Fins have with Turkey come from Turkey's aggressive stance with several European and Middle East countries and from the way Erdogan is behaving. These are the core of the problem. And such issues popped up and caused Spain and Poland to back away from the exercise. Thus, the Spain/Poland issue is a direct continuation of the Sweden/Finland issue and it won't be the last.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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