NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

[PointOfViewGun]

Al Qaeda is a recognized terrorist group.

The issue is broader than terrorism. We don't want any public support for Erdogan or Putin's regime, which are legitimate governments not terrorist groups. And I think support for Palestinian independence and Kurdish independence should be banned as well, as it's dangerous to attract those hardline fighters into Europe where they can then move freely once granted citizenship. But where do we draw the line?

So is PKK. It's listed as a terrorist organization both by US and EU. Why should we treat PKK differently by your standards?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

So is PKK. It's listed as a terrorist organization both by US and EU. Why should we treat PKK differently by your standards?

We should all learn from Turkey about how to treat all terrorist groups equally. Wait..

[Nebaki]

We should all learn from Turkey about how to treat all terrorist groups equally. Wait..

... for a better understanding here you got a Infographic:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[nhytgbvfeco2]

... for a better understanding here you got a Infographic:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How is it relevant to me pointing out that Turkey doesn't treat terrorist groups even close to equally?

[PointOfViewGun]

We should all learn from Turkey about how to treat all terrorist groups equally. Wait..

So? Why did such a statement triggered such a response so easily?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

So? Why did such a statement triggered such a response so easily?

You asked why PKK should be treated differently than other terrorist organisations, which is highly amusing considering Turkey's treatment of the PKK compared to other organisations, like HTS as we've already discussed in this thread.

[Ludicus]

God Emperor Trump was right again, as usual. they owe us their undying loyalty for their own domestic freedom and security. At this point we should be taxing Europe for the privilege of their own security, in all honesty.

Not long now till we find out.That will be the way an American government led by retarded Trumpist Republicans will behave (Al Capone's style), but by then the US will be anything but a democracy, no better than Russia.Curiously, it's not me who says that, it's Trump himself Trump says U.S. no better than Russia - Portland Press Herald
But in fact, the moral hypocrisy is staggering. The crimes Russia is carrying out in Ukraine are more than matched by the crimes committed by Washington in the Middle East over the last two decades.And much more. The Victims of Agent Orange the US Has Never Acknowledged
Bombs Over Cambodia - Genocide Studies Program

[Axalon]

What can the government do about it?

The Government should keep its meddlesome paws out of it… The state should not even dabble in such matters, to begin with.

If political advocacy groups are banned, wouldn't it also forbid those supporting democracy in Myanmar or even Ukrainian government?

There is a humongous difference between banning political advocacy groups and telling them to stop pestering you with their internationalist cause or message. I have better things to do then worrying about stuff on the other side of the planet. I do not even have the tools to do something about it anyways. If other people believe they do, by all means act if that is what they want.

Ill say this much... It is hardly the function of a state to ensure “democracy” or otherwise - half a world away. Far far beyond its own borders, it is a waste of taxmoney and resources. That is just something overambitious globalist politicians/activists have made up. A (peacetime) nation-state should always firmly focus on its own people, defending their interests and ensuring their security – the rest is secondary…

- A

[Axalon]

… other reasons probably like a Software Engineer is working for a Company in Sweden and the only foreign Language he has to know is English.

I am not discussing qualified labor there, but essentially everyone else (especially the fake refugees). Folks aiming to stay in Sweden, long term (for whatever reasons). If that is what you want, then you adapt and assimilate, respect and learn our customs, traditions and language, as simple as that. And preferably fast. Otherwise you will never belong in Sweden, and you will eventually be treated accordingly.

We do have (in Sweden) plenty of foreigners that think and act otherwise - and they are hardly popular or appreciated because of it. Some of them are seemingly from Turkey as well (Mikail Yüksel comes to mind, among others). I wonder why such people are in Sweden in the first place? If they don’t like the people, customs and traditions found here? Why come to Sweden at all, then?!? But I digress…

Your Government is supporting a Hostile Group close to a Turkish Soil with Financial Aid and even Arms which are known for bombing attacks inside Turkish Sovereignty.

My understanding is that there is no actual or explicit mandate for all that (in Sweden). The Swedish people have never been consulted in the matter. It is all done on a whim by the Swedish socialdemocrats, and it started with their “saint”; Olof Palme back in the 1970’s. The Swedish socialdemocrats (socialists) have a long history of confusing Sweden’s interests with their own party-interest’s – thinking and acting as if the two are the same – it is not. It never was.

But how this ends up becaming a Turkish-Swedish-Issue?

It is not really a Swedish-Turkish-issue, but one between Swedish socialdemocrats and Turkey. The ever moronic socialdemocrats are the ones primarily pushing for it in Sweden, few others. Besides that, Turkey continues somehow to do stuff (for whatever reasons) that rubs the very same over-pretentious socialdemocrats the wrong way. That too, might also be part of it. Other then that, I don’t know…

If Secular or not that is not neither your business nor of Swedes or any other NATO Country which is even full of non-Secular Countries.

Last time I checked, Turkey entered NATO as a secular state, and it is expected to behave as such by most other member states I imagine - who also happen to be secular states, mind you. Including applicants Sweden and Finland... It is the rule, not the exception in NATO. Officially, Turkey is still a secular state and it would be wise to stay on that path, if you ask me. Other then that, of course Turkish internal matters, is internal…

Now under this all circumstances how should we trust a Country like Sweden which is even giving shelter to our enemies but wants to join a Pact with us?

I hate to break it to you but… Sweden and Finland is not seeking any Nato-Membership to be in the supposedly super awesome company of Turkey. Sweden and Finland is rather seeking membership despite Turkey and its various activities over the years. NATO matters because Sweden and Finland can then work much closer with our neighbors like Denmark and Norway, but also Poland and the Baltic states for instance. It is about increasing and strengthening regional and national security. Keeping Finland and the Baltic countries safe, ultimately means we are safe. That is what this is about. Turkey has little or nothing to do with it…

If you read my previous replies on this Topic you find out that Sweden is already de facto in NATO Alliance while not all Members are obligated to it. You will probably get support from USA and EU since one has already a Agreement with in that case while you are Member of that other Organisation with except who? Turkey.

Again, we are seeking a NATO-membership to change that troublesome “probably” to a reliable “definitely” get help if things go south with Russia. If Turkey is member or not in NATO is ultimately secondary for us. We want to further reinforce our military cooperation with Denmark and Norway primarily (and the Baltic states). And right now, Turkey is the only thing blocking/obstructing all such plans…

If you don´t need Turkey then why even insist to join?

See previous answers…

Did I mention that Alllied Land Command is located in Turkey?

Does it matter? It has to be somewhere…

Personally i don´t support the idea became allied with a Nation that was known for hostile actions towards my People.

I can understand that… Don’t confuse the sorry Swedish socialdemocrats and their pretentious meddlesome political activism with the Swedish nation. The former have little or no mandate by the later - to do such things. There have been zero democratic votes or consultations on the matter, so far…

It is a socialdemocratic stance, not a Swedish stance. The socialist party are constantly mixing up their misguided party activism with actual foreign state policy – thinking little about the consequences, focusing hard on fleeting solidarity acts, UN prestige-projects and tons of questionable virtue-signalling and posturing. Again, all this started with Olof Palme (their party-saint). They are internationalists at heart, caring little for the Swedish nation as such, or any other nations for that matter…

- A

[PointOfViewGun]

You asked why PKK should be treated differently than other terrorist organisations, which is highly amusing considering Turkey's treatment of the PKK compared to other organisations, like HTS as we've already discussed in this thread.

Yet, your attempts at that pissing contest doesn't really respond to my question. It merely exhibit a childish approach to the issue.

[Pontifex Maximus]

A braindead take here. Even Germany of all countries is expanding their military budget significantly these days

After Trump held their toes to the fire and rightly predicted their energy dependence on Russia, which was absolutely proven true.

[Cope]

After Trump held their toes to the fire and rightly predicted their energy dependence on Russia, which was absolutely proven true.

Expecting NATO members to meet their 2% obligations and/or not bind their economies to Gazprom is just too much to ask. That's why Biden was happy to waive the Trump era sanctions on NS2, even as he blocked KSXL.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Yet, your attempts at that pissing contest doesn't really respond to my question. It merely exhibit a childish approach to the issue.

You asked why we should treat PKK differently. Why does Turkey? Why do you?

[Nebaki]

I am not discussing qualified labor there, but essentially everyone else (especially the fake refugees). Folks aiming to stay in Sweden, long term (for whatever reasons). If that is what you want, then you adapt and assimilate, respect and learn our customs, traditions and language, as simple as that. And preferably fast. Otherwise you will never belong in Sweden, and you will eventually be treated accordingly.

We do have (in Sweden) plenty of foreigners that think and act otherwise - and they are hardly popular or appreciated because of it. Some of them are seemingly from Turkey as well (Mikail Yüksel comes to mind, among others). I wonder why such people are in Sweden in the first place? If they don’t like the people, customs and traditions found here? Why come to Sweden at all, then?!? But I digress…

Your State, your Laws, your Government are granting those People which even comitted crimes somehwere else political asylum. When those People are probably returned they will face a death penalty somewhere around the Globe. But of course this is against Human Rights but their past was somehow too against some Human Rights but who cares in that case - Sweden? Seems to be not. How it comes the People of Turkish Origin (we should maybe clear first how much of them identify themselve even as a Turk) are not Issue of Immigration or do you have a personal problem with someone who is Turkish?

I´m hearing first time of the Guy that you mention and that he is even in your Parliament.

My understanding is that there is no actual or explicit mandate for all that (in Sweden). The Swedish people have never been consulted in the matter. It is all done on a whim by the Swedish socialdemocrats, and it started with their “saint”; Olof Palme back in the 1970’s. The Swedish socialdemocrats (socialists) have a long history of confusing Sweden’s interests with their own party-interest’s – thinking and acting as if the two are the same – it is not. It never was.

Well how it comes those Swedish people are electing those People and they probably should know it better how those People for whom they have voted would act. As you said started with 1970s already 50 years ago and still nothing has changed in Sweden.

It is not really a Swedish-Turkish-issue, but one between Swedish socialdemocrats and Turkey. The ever moronic socialdemocrats are the ones primarily pushing for it in Sweden, few others. Besides that, Turkey continues somehow to do stuff (for whatever reasons) that rubs the very same over-pretentious socialdemocrats the wrong way. That too, might also be part of it. Other then that, I don’t know…

How this is not a Swedish-Turkish-issue? It is easy here to blame your government but you swedish people have voted for them and not the Turkish People. Yet still Sweden is too a State and i guess you guys have a own State policy which even socialdemocrats can´t change? If not....

Last time I checked, Turkey entered NATO as a secular state, and it is expected to behave as such by most other member states I imagine - who also happen to be secular states, mind you. Including applicants Sweden and
Finland... It is the rule, not the exception in NATO. Officially, Turkey is still a secular state and it would be wise to stay on that path, if you ask me. Other then that, of course Turkish internal matters, is internal…

Well didn´t know that NATO has a requierement that your State must be secular to join it otherwise some other Members wouldn´t even be part of it. There is not such a rule in NATO. Wise would be for Turkey never ally a country like Sweden, if you ask me. Other then that, of couse I´m not the Turkish Government...

I hate to break it to you but… Sweden and Finland is not seeking any Nato-Membership to be in the supposedly super awesome company of Turkey. Sweden and Finland is rather seeking membership despite Turkey and its various activities over the years. NATO matters because Sweden and Finland can then work much closer with our neighbors like Denmark and Norway, but also Poland and the Baltic states for instance. It is about increasing and strengthening regional and national security. Keeping Finland and the Baltic countries safe, ultimately means we are safe. That is what this is about. Turkey has little or nothing to do with it…

Well then don´t join it. This is a total wrong thinking. You don´t have to be part of NATO to work "closer" with neighbors like Denmark, Norway or Poland and Baltics. Of course Turkey has a very important thing to do it with it. Having an Ally like Turkey means that you are safe. The Impact of having Turkey on your Side ones getting for example to be threatened by Russia is pretty obvious.

Again, we are seeking a NATO-membership to change that troublesome “probably” to a reliable “definitely” get help if things go south with Russia. If Turkey is member or not in NATO is ultimately secondary for us. We want to further reinforce our military cooperation with Denmark and Norway primarily (and the Baltic states). And right now, Turkey is the only thing blocking/obstructing all such plans…

Well again look at Ukraine. You don´t have to be part of NATO to get such a help. You already got membership in EU and most of the NATO Members are too part of it. Then make a pact with Denmark or Norway it wouldn´t be hard to found a Nordic/Viking Alliance in case of War against Russia. Furthermore I´m pretty sure - again look at Ukraine - that Sweden would get any help from USA in case of War against Russia. If this is secondary for you and swedish people why even bother to join? This is total rubbish.

See previous answers…

There is not a answer. This such just a cheap excuse in my opinion. The Countries that you mentioned to increase further military cooperation are already all in EU. I´m pretty obvious that the entire European Union aswell USA would support you guys in case of War with Russia, Good Luck.

Does it matter? It has to be somewhere…

Well it seems to be that you still not figured out how important Turkey is for NATO and Im not just talking about some controls of some straits.

I can understand that… Don’t confuse the sorry Swedish socialdemocrats and their pretentious meddlesome political activism with the Swedish nation. The former have little or no mandate by the later - to do such things. There have been zero democratic votes or consultations on the matter, so far…

Well didn´t many People are blaming "Turkey" on this board for some actions of their own Government? Who should i else blame here when not the Nation who mostly voted for those People? Donald Trump?

It is a socialdemocratic stance, not a Swedish stance. The socialist party are constantly mixing up their misguided party activism with actual foreign state policy – thinking little about the consequences, focusing hard on fleeting solidarity acts, UN prestige-projects and tons of questionable virtue-signalling and posturing. Again, all this started with Olof Palme (their party-saint). They are internationalists at heart, caring little for the Swedish nation as such, or any other nations for that matter…

We are aware of that and how for decades especially foreign policy of Sweden was towards Turkey. Maybe those People who the Swedish Nation has elected made some short-term plans and does not care about foreign state policy consequences. But some of those short-term plans are cooperating with elements which are hostile and harmful against the Turkish State and his Sovereignty. I don´t care what mutual agreement the current swedish or Turkish Government will have been signed.

I will never forget this hostile actions from Sweden against my People. As like if we have invaded their country recently, there is such a grudge among the swedish.

I hope that we will send swedish ambassadors as soon as possible back and freeze all our relations. Such a scandal, such a dishonor cannot be.

How is it relevant to me pointing out that Turkey doesn't treat terrorist groups even close to equally?

Wait...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now I´m confused.

[PointOfViewGun]

You asked why we should treat PKK differently. Why does Turkey? Why do you?

Why do I? Care to quote a post of mine doing that?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Wait...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now I´m confused.

A) He's no longer the prime minister
B) How is this relevant in any way?

Why do I? Care to quote a post of mine doing that?

In order not to acknowledge the difference between groups like YPG/PKK and Al Qaeda/HTS/ISIL you jumped to talking about HTS in a vacuum.

I cannot prove your treatment of them is different, but you've called them different on this very thread.

[PointOfViewGun]

I cannot prove your treatment of them is different, but you've called them different on this very thread.

Sigh... At least we got you to acknowledge that you basically lied when you claimed that I argued for treating different groups differently since calling different groups "different" doesn't mean one even comments on how to treat them. Now tell me this. What was the context that the word "different" was used in respect to?

[Nebaki]

He's no longer the prime minister

Since when he´s no longer the prime minister?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Since when he´s no longer the prime minister?

Since Friday.

Sigh... At least we got you to acknowledge that you basically lied when you claimed that I argued for treating different groups differently since calling different groups "different" doesn't mean one even comments on how to treat them.

I didn't claim that you argued that they should be treated differently. I claimed that you treat them differently.

[PointOfViewGun]

I didn't claim that you argued that they should be treated differently. I claimed that you treat them differently.

And that's different how?