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Thread: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

  1. #61
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Is this lie blatantly stupid or maliciously deceptive?
    You usually do a mix of the two. The comment you replied to however was a simple statement of fact.

  2. #62

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    https://yle.fi/news/3-12446441

    "The Finnish president said he was "confused" by this statement. He referred to a call with Erdogan about a month ago, in which he said the latter had raised the issue of Nato, saying that Turkey would support a bid."

    Lets drop the charade.
    Somehow Finnish president's confusion forces us to ignore the past?

    Turkey to Europe: Why do you support YPG, PKK terrorists?
    Turkey’s foreign minister urged Sweden and the EU to make a clear distinction between terrorists and Kurdish people and to refrain from backing the PKK and its affiliates and ignoring its human rights violations

    "Why would you (European countries) support PKK, YPG?" asked Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu on Tuesday during a joint news conference with Swedish counterpart Ann Linde.

    "This is yet another proof of Europe’s hypocritical stance toward terrorism," he added.
    Is dropping the charade means that we will ignore facts to make sure your narrative stays alive? If that's the case I'm content with my charade.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You usually do a mix of the two. The comment you replied to however was a simple statement of fact.
    Then it should be fairly easy to reference it.
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  3. #63
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Then it should be fairly easy to reference it.
    I think that you're aware that to disprove my claim you need to provide an example to the contrary.

  4. #64

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I think that you're aware that to disprove my claim you need to provide an example to the contrary.
    If you were backing that claim with substance, sure.
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  5. #65
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Somehow Finnish president's confusion forces us to ignore the past?
    Just shows the bad faith you keep arguing in, there is a reason there was "" around confused, it was badly translated. More like "could not believe", because the message from Turkey differed so much from the original tone and message. Any actual arguments as to why Turkey would send such mixed signals?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Turkey to Europe: Why do you support YPG, PKK terrorists?


    Is dropping the charade means that we will ignore facts to make sure your narrative stays alive? If that's the case I'm content with my charade.
    Dropping the charade as to this being about security and not just a cynical attempt at blackmail. I take Turkey's line with quite the grain of salt due to how deceptively they are behaving.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  6. #66

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Just shows the bad faith you keep arguing in, there is a reason there was "" around confused, it was badly translated. More like "could not believe", because the message from Turkey differed so much from the original tone and message. Any actual arguments as to why Turkey would send such mixed signals?
    Dropping the charade as to this being about security and not just a cynical attempt at blackmail. I take Turkey's line with quite the grain of salt due to how deceptively they are behaving.
    I'm not sure you're grasping what you're actually arguing here. You claimed that Turkey never made any issue out of the PKK issue, that they never made it known to Finland or Sweden before. I just gave you an example of the Turkish foreign minister making it an issue in a press conference with the Swedish foreign minister during October 2020. I'm not sure what's bad faith about what I pointed out. Disbelief or confusion, Finnish president's remarks doesn't alter recent history. Turkey have been making an issue out of PKK presence in Nordic countries for years. There are no mixed signals. To talk about deception, blackmail and taking things with a grain of salt, you first have to get establish basic facts that you seem to fail at a fundamental level.
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  7. #67
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Turkey's troops literally trained with Sweden's this year, and they have been doing so for some years, and they share information all the time.

    Countries can maintain mutual defence agreements while having active disagreements.

    The PKK issue is important for domestic politics in Turkey, but it will be resolved in a way that both allows Sweden/Finland's membership to proceed, allows them to keep their values, and allows Erdogan to 'look' like the tough deal maker to his domestic audience. We shouldn't be too binary in our thinking here.
    Last edited by antaeus; May 19, 2022 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Plural.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  8. #68

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    Lets be honest here, Turkey had a chance before this case to bring any issues to the knowledge of either Finland and Sweden. They said there were no issues, in fact they stated the opposite, they would welcome Finland and Sweden. Then when Finland and Sweden could no longer back down Turkey took its chance to seize a bargaining chip. This is not about Finland or Sweden in any way, this is about Turkey wanting concessions from other NATO states. It is a of a dictatorship with it's finances in the gutter looking for any way to profit, no matter the damage they do to themselves on the international stage. Any talk of terrorist that, terrorist this is just smokescreens.

    It is sad that a state so against NATO's values feels the need to stay in it and be a towards all others in the alliance. Demanding that new members go against the alliances values to join it, glorious irony.
    Finland and Sweden (let's say countries with low birthrate and whose future is in danger because of the headless boomer generation) want to become NATO members and preserve their existence. But they don't want a "permanent NATO base" in their country. They say we want to become a member, but we do not allow the establishment of a base.That's what they say. If i would personally Russia already invading them. I wouldn't leave it until morning like that. But NATO is currently run by fools.

    They want us to protect countries that swore to Russia wouldn't be part of NATO while at the same time doing hostile acts like arms embargos, economic sanctions, black propaganda, fully supporting seperatist terrorist factions etc.

    The requests of my country could be summarized as: "stop treating us like an enemy first". But yeah go on blame anything on Mr. Erdogan as usual.

    Russia will not stay like this forever, they join NATO when they are in this state, when the risk is low, so that Russia will not be able to react when it eventually recovers. If Russia had entered before the war when it was so self-confident, perhaps it would have been the Scandinavians whose infrastructure had been destroyed and had lost decades.

    Why are your open support to terrorism is called human rights and democracy while our demands perceived as an authoritarian regime threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Aaaand we're back to post #40 and post #19 by association.
    Well he is unfortunately doing this literally since a decade and arguing to each other is not gonna happen. He would rather you accept his point of view while he flatly rejects ours. At this point it became a pointless discussion and we are going to nowhere as usual.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Every single military action undertaken by Turkey in Syria was aimed at the Kurds. This while being de-facto allied to non-Kurdish terrorists. It is very much true.
    This is not true and you know that. Turkey is only allied to his Independence.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post

    HTS should go to hell.
    SAA was also not attacking ISIS, I never claimed otherwise. SAA was attacking HTS, for example 2 years ago when they took Saraqib and Turkey sent the SNA to help HTS. In fact up to 72 Turkish soldiers got killed in that offensive attempting to defend HTS territory. And who negotiated a ceasefire to save HTS? Turkey. Who threatened military action if the offensive against HTS wouldn't stop? Turkey. So don't tell me Turkey does not defend HTS, because it does, very obviously.
    Now tell me, if the SAA would launch an offensive against the SDF would Turkey send soldiers to defend the SDF? Would Turkey threaten the SAA with military action? Would Turkey send the SNA to help the SDF defend its territory? Would Turkey broker a ceasefire to prevent the SAA from taking SDF territory?
    We all know the answer to those questions.
    Again this not true. I already mentioned on my previous what an attack on that certain territory left from the Syrian Rebels against SAA would cause in Turkey. Literally anything that the so-called SAA in last decade had an negative impact for Turkey. So stop assuming with replies like "We all know the answer to those questions" since we do not know the answer for it. Aren´t you a little much obsessed with that HTS? I just wonder why.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'm not an advocate of the SAA, I'm very much against it. Being opposed to the SAA does not however mean that I have to be in favour of everyone who is against them. Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy.
    The Enemy of your Enemy is nothing else then just your Friend with some benefit or some Faction which is serving the same outcome. I don´t consider HTS or whatever you have seen them as a Faction or Friend. They are there and they have to be dealt when the time is ready for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The point I'm making is that Turkey doesn't care about terrorists, and has no qualms being allied to them (so long as they're not Kurds), it cares about Kurds. If you're not going to respond to that then I do not see a point in continuing to reply to you.
    This literarlly just viewpoint and as pointed it out you are little bit to much obsessed with that "HTS" or whatever they call themselve tomorrow. Turkeys support for Palestine is also present and probably you even seeing them as terrorists (Someone would blame Mr. Erdogan for the worsening of the relationship between Israel and Turkey but it was even before worse which was caused by no one else then the Israelis itself).
    Last edited by Nebaki; May 19, 2022 at 06:34 PM.

  9. #69
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I'm not sure you're grasping what you're actually arguing here. You claimed that Turkey never made any issue out of the PKK issue, that they never made it known to Finland or Sweden before. I just gave you an example of the Turkish foreign minister making it an issue in a press conference with the Swedish foreign minister during October 2020. I'm not sure what's bad faith about what I pointed out. Disbelief or confusion, Finnish president's remarks doesn't alter recent history. Turkey have been making an issue out of PKK presence in Nordic countries for years. There are no mixed signals. To talk about deception, blackmail and taking things with a grain of salt, you first have to get establish basic facts that you seem to fail at a fundamental level.
    I claimed Turkey didn't make it an issue that would stop Finland and Sweden joining NATO before Finland and Sweden expressed that they wanted to join. As they had clearly indicated they had no issue until they suddenly had all kinds of issues, when Sweden and Finland said they would join. Essentially lying through their teeth all along the way.

    That it was an issue that Turkey had with Sweden is not what we are talking about, we are talking about it being an issue Turkey sees as an impediment to join NATO. Maybe you should start reading and trying to comprehend instead of trying to dismiss sources by grasping at straws.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
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  10. #70
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    This is not true and you know that. Turkey is only allied to his Independence.
    I'm sorry, but it is true. You can feel free to provide an example to the contrary.


    Again this not true. I already mentioned on my previous what an attack on that certain territory left from the Syrian Rebels against SAA would cause in Turkey. Literally anything that the so-called SAA in last decade had an negative impact for Turkey. So stop assuming with replies like "We all know the answer to those questions" since we do not know the answer for it. Aren´t you a little much obsessed with that HTS? I just wonder why.
    What a terrible comeback. You say it's not true and then admit that it is. You accuse me of being obsessed with HTS while we're discussing HTS. You keep trying to diss the SAA as if that would upset me. The SAA of Assad the butcher can also go to hell.



    The Enemy of your Enemy is nothing else then just your Friend with some benefit or some Faction which is serving the same outcome. I don´t consider HTS or whatever you have seen them as a Faction or Friend. They are there and they have to be dealt when the time is ready for it.
    So was ISIS a friend with some benefit when Turkey attacked the SDF?
    Again, sometimes the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy.
    This literarlly just viewpoint and as pointed it out you are little bit to much obsessed with that "HTS" or whatever they call themselve tomorrow.
    I'm hearing a lot of "nooooo that's not true noooooooo" and not a lot of evidence to dispute my statement.
    Turkeys support for Palestine is also present and probably you even seeing them as terrorists (Someone would blame Mr. Erdogan for the worsening of the relationship between Israel and Turkey but it was even before worse which was caused by no one else then the Israelis itself).
    Completely irrelevant. And yes, it was Gollum who worsened relations, I didn't think anyone could even dispute this fact.

  11. #71

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    I claimed Turkey didn't make it an issue that would stop Finland and Sweden joining NATO before Finland and Sweden expressed that they wanted to join. As they had clearly indicated they had no issue until they suddenly had all kinds of issues, when Sweden and Finland said they would join. Essentially lying through their teeth all along the way.

    That it was an issue that Turkey had with Sweden is not what we are talking about, we are talking about it being an issue Turkey sees as an impediment to join NATO. Maybe you should start reading and trying to comprehend instead of trying to dismiss sources by grasping at straws.
    That's seriously your defense? The mental gymnastics to dismiss clear cases of Turkey making it an issue of some countries' ties to PKK activity is just mind boggling. That somehow Turkey made it an issue but she didn't make it an issue with respect to NATO membership while the issue is about national security which is the whole point of NATO's existence. The source you have? Finnish president's confusion. All in a monumental dance to avoid admitting that you made a sweeping claim that was simply false. Bravo.
    The Armenian Issue

  12. #72

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Meanwhile from the Interpol report:
    Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê (PKK)

    In 2020, the Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê (PKK, ‘Kurdistan Workers’ Party’) continued to eschew carrying out attacks on EU soil but remained active in non-violent mobilisation. The group maintained an apparatus that provided logistical and financial support to its operatives in Turkey and neighbouring countries and promoted its political objectives. This apparatus mainly operated under the guise of legally recognised entities, such as Kurdish associations.
    Last edited by alhoon; May 20, 2022 at 04:58 PM. Reason: continuity
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  13. #73

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'm sorry, but it is true. You can feel free to provide an example to the contrary.
    The Republic of Turkey is the friend of those who are friendly to it:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Until my enemy renounces his hostility, I am his ruthless enemy.”



    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    So was ISIS a friend with some benefit when Turkey attacked the SDF?
    Again, sometimes the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy.
    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    What a terrible comeback. You say it's not true and then admit that it is. You accuse me of being obsessed with HTS while we're discussing HTS. You keep trying to diss the SAA as if that would upset me. The SAA of Assad the butcher can also go to hell.
    What a terrible play on words. Where i did admit something in that wise? I don´t even need to diss since they are doing this by their own.



    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I'm hearing a lot of "nooooo that's not true noooooooo" and not a lot of evidence to dispute my statement.
    So in the contrary don´t you need to provide something like in the first place to prove your statement? Can you find the logic Error here?

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Completely irrelevant. And yes, it was Gollum who worsened relations, I didn't think anyone could even dispute this fact.
    It is not irrelevant and who is Gollum please? We aren´t in the Middle Earth Universe:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Nebaki; May 20, 2022 at 06:47 PM.

  14. #74
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Does anyone know what the necessary conditions are to expell someone from NATO?

    Turkey is causing too much trouble since too long.

    I don't resent it to the Turks here that they defend the honor of their country. I do the same. It would be great to have you as brothers, but it can't be unless you take a stance that is distant enough to Erdogan and his ideology as well as antisemitism and your own denial of the Armenian genocide. Until then (so godspeed, I guess).

  15. #75

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    None of those stances have anything to do with the topic of this thread. It's apparent how partial some are when it comes to issues about Turkey. All logic and facts are forfeited to keep an anti-Turkish narrative alive. In recent years, we had Greece blocking Macedonia's admission to NATO for over 2 decades simply over a naming issue and no one batted an eye. But when Turkey raises the issue of PKK involvement in prospective countries it's suddenly a deal breaker. Boo ing hoo...
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  16. #76
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    The Republic of Turkey is the friend of those who are friendly to it:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Until my enemy renounces his hostility, I am his ruthless enemy.”
    Notice how I asked you to provide an example to the contrary and you failed to do so. If you think I'm wrong it shouldn't be too hard to find an example to prove me wrong.




    What a terrible play on words. Where i did admit something in that wise?
    You said it's not true, but then went on about how it's a good thing that Turkey did it. It's the old "It didn't happen, but if it did they deserved it". This is a classic in Turkish apologeia, I know, but it's not actually very effective.
    I don´t even need to diss since they are doing this by their own.
    Feel free. The SAA sucks and would've lost this conflict without foreign aid. It's a sorry excuse for an "army", made up of criminals. I am against the SAA Nebaki, you dissing them isn't relevant to this argument.



    So in the contrary don´t you need to provide something like in the first place to prove your statement? Can you find the logic Error here?
    I've provided an example of Turkey being de-facto allied to terrorists.. the HTS. Have you forgotten that that's what started our discussion? I've already given evidence to prove my statement.


    It is not irrelevant and who is Gollum please? We aren´t in the Middle Earth Universe:

    One would think you'd know who your president is.
    And yes, relations (or lack of) between Turkey and Israel are not related to this topic.

  17. #77

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Notice how I asked you to provide an example to the contrary and you failed to do so. If you think I'm wrong it shouldn't be too hard to find an example to prove me wrong.
    You really wanna stand by that blatantly deceptive lie? Even a simple Google search shows you to be wrong. Just to be clear, your initial claim:
    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Every single military action undertaken by Turkey in Syria was aimed at the Kurds. This while being de-facto allied to non-Kurdish terrorists. It is very much true.
    This means that Turkey never acted against ISIL. Yet, the very first operation Turkey initiated in Syria, Operation Euphrates Shield, targeted ISIL on the Turkish border with Syria.
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  18. #78
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You really wanna stand by that blatantly deceptive lie? Even a simple Google search shows you to be wrong. Just to be clear, your initial claim:


    This means that Turkey never acted against ISIL. Yet, the very first operation Turkey initiated in Syria, Operation Euphrates Shield, targeted ISIL on the Turkish border with Syria.
    Euphrates shield was launched to prevent the Kurds from linking up their territory. While the target was, on paper, ISIS, the aim was to counter the Kurds.

  19. #79

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Euphrates shield was launched to prevent the Kurds from linking up their territory. While the target was, on paper, ISIS, the aim was to counter the Kurds.
    Was the operation directed towards territory controlled by YPG or ISIL?
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  20. #80
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    None of those stances have anything to do with the topic of this thread. It's apparent how partial some are when it comes to issues about Turkey. All logic and facts are forfeited to keep an anti-Turkish narrative alive. In recent years, we had Greece blocking Macedonia's admission to NATO for over 2 decades simply over a naming issue and no one batted an eye. But when Turkey raises the issue of PKK involvement in prospective countries it's suddenly a deal breaker. Boo ing hoo...
    You have not supplied any evidence of Finland backing PKK. What justifies Turkey's blocking of Finland?

    Also Turkey has not sided with us on the Ukraine war. That's being openly hostile.

    Or perhaps Finland should start funding PKK until Turkey let it in?


    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Does anyone know what the necessary conditions are to expell someone from NATO?

    Turkey is causing too much trouble since too long.
    Or we can form a new defense alliance without Turkey. It's not like Turkey will remain valuable given the state of its economics.
    Last edited by AqD; May 21, 2022 at 03:17 PM.

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