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Thread: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

  1. #141
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Your State, your Laws, your Government are granting those People which even comitted crimes somehwere else political asylum. When those People are probably returned they will face a death penalty somewhere around the Globe. But of course this is against Human Rights but their past was somehow too against some Human Rights but who cares in that case - Sweden? Seems to be not.
    You are missing the point, the Swedish socialists are granting asylum to lots of people without actual democratic mandate to do so (I’m talking quantity here) – as the Swedish people has never been consulted on that matter (as in had a public vote about it) – whether they actually wants that or not.

    Personally, I don’t give rats ass if it is dangerous or not for foreigners to return to their homeland or whatever – it is not my problem, it is explicitly theirs. If that happens to be the case – even more reason to play ones cards right, keeping a low profile, striving to adapt, assimilate and be lawful in Sweden - if you hope to stay here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    How it comes the People of Turkish Origin (we should maybe clear first how much of them identify themselve even as a Turk) are not Issue of Immigration or do you have a personal problem with someone who is Turkish?
    Say What?!??

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I´m hearing first time of the Guy that you mention and that he is even in your Parliament.
    Well, he is not in parliament but Mikail Yüksel aims to get there as a propagator for “Islamism" in Sweden. Islam is not a natural part of Sweden, in fact it has zero history here, less then 100 years even. Culturally it is even worse then that; rather it is typically in open conflict with Swedish traditions and customs. Islam only exists there due to the influx of immigrants and fake refugees who brought it with them. Again, this have been allowed to happen without a proper or explicit mandate of the Swedish people (zero votes about it). Anyhow, I digress…

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well how it comes those Swedish people are electing those People and they probably should know it better how those People for whom they have voted would act. As you said started with 1970s already 50 years ago and still nothing has changed in Sweden.
    It is mostly due to the fact that election-debates seldom revolves about or are defined by such matters - but by other things much closer to home to the average Swedish voter. The rest, you get as a biproduduct. Most foreign policy-matters are confined to that overall circumstance and that for quite some time - unfortunately…

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    How this is not a Swedish-Turkish-issue? It is easy here to blame your government but you swedish people have voted for them and not the Turkish People. Yet still Sweden is too a State and i guess you guys have a own State policy which even socialdemocrats can´t change? If not....
    As already explained above, besides there is little socialdemocrats won’t try to change if they think it serves their party interests. Sweden doesn’t have much of a overall forign state policy doctrine – save it typically prefers to work with its Nordic neighbours, the EU, export stuff and that it likes peace. An example on how the socialists changed Swedish foreign policy was for instance the official recognition of Palestine as a state – that was done for strictly ideological reasons by the socialists and without any proper democratic mandate. They just did it anyways, and they have gotten away with it (so far).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well didn´t know that NATO has a requierement that your State must be secular to join it otherwise some other Members wouldn´t even be part of it. There is not such a rule in NATO. Wise would be for Turkey never ally a country like Sweden, if you ask me. Other then that, of couse I´m not the Turkish Government...
    Don’t be ridiculous… Turkey would never been admitted as a member if it had not been a secular state. Islam (regardless the kind) has a piss poor reputation in Europe in general and the vast majority of NATO members are European and secular. The USA and Canada are both are built on European traditions, ideas and secular as well. There is no such explicit rule but thinking that Turkey would ever have a future as an Islamic authoritarian state in NATO (or had ever been admitted as one) – please, get real…

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well then don´t join it. This is a total wrong thinking. You don´t have to be part of NATO to work "closer" with neighbors like Denmark, Norway or Poland and Baltics. Of course Turkey has a very important thing to do it with it. Having an Ally like Turkey means that you are safe. The Impact of having Turkey on your Side ones getting for example to be threatened by Russia is pretty obvious.
    Again, don’t be ridiculous… It has everything to do with working with Denmark, Norway and the Balic states – in short, regional and national security – for both Finland and Sweden. The Turkish armed forces are fairly strong and that is all fine and well - but it is hardly a decisive factor for actual Swedish or Finnish security considerations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Then make a pact with Denmark or Norway it wouldn´t be hard to found a Nordic/Viking Alliance in case of War against Russia. Furthermore I´m pretty sure - again look at Ukraine - that Sweden would get any help from USA in case of War against Russia.
    We can’t because of their obligations to NATO - if we too are members as well, then it is a whole other story. And right now, Turkey is the thing blocking/obstructing all such plans, out of all things…

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Furthermore I´m pretty sure - again look at Ukraine - that Sweden would get any help from USA in case of War against Russia.
    That you are pretty sure, does not cut it. Again, “probably” is not good enough, only “definitely” getting help is good enough. This goes for both Finland and Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well it seems to be that you still not figured out how important Turkey is for NATO and Im not just talking about some controls of some straits.
    Rather it seems to me that you overestimate the importance of Turkey as a singular member of NATO. In its region I’m sure it has plenty of value but beyond it, I doubt it. Such as places like the Nordic countries and the Baltic region, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    But some of those short-term plans are cooperating with elements which are hostile and harmful against the Turkish State and his Sovereignty.
    I can totally understand and sympathize with that… And again, this is something created at the hands of the socialdemocrats, for strictly ideological reasons - as Sweden and its people does not have any such agenda. It has existed because the socialist party took it upon themselves to play political activism around the world with little thought on the possible consequences, both for Sweden and otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    I will never forget this hostile actions from Sweden against my People. As like if we have invaded their country recently, there is such a grudge among the swedish.

    I hope that we will send swedish ambassadors as soon as possible back and freeze all our relations. Such a scandal, such a dishonor cannot be.
    Unfortunate… You will be disappointed, it will be. It is only a matter of time. This regardless if you like it or not. Sweden and Finland will do their part, Turkey will do its part, and that’s that.

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; July 04, 2022 at 01:38 AM. Reason: Improvement!

  2. #142

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    You are missing the point, the Swedish socialists are granting asylum to lots of people without actual democratic mandate to do so (I’m talking quantity here) – as the Swedish people has never been consulted on that matter (as in had a public vote about it) – whether they actually wants that or not.
    Well this does not change the Fact that still some of Majority in Sweden are voting for those so-called swedish socialists. Then I would ask myself why swedish people are still voting for group which never consulting them on their future steps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Personally, I don’t give rats ass if it is dangerous or not for foreigners to return to their homeland or whatever – it is not my problem, it is explicitly theirs. If that happens to be the case – even more reason to play ones cards right, keeping a low profile, striving to adapt, assimilate and be lawful in Sweden - if you hope to stay here.
    Well you should because you feed them and give them shelter. You make them your own problem now solvie it please, we had a solution in that case but you and your folk intervened there for what reason ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Well, he is not in parliament but Mikail Yüksel aims to get there as a propagator for “Islamism" in Sweden. Islam is not a natural part of Sweden, in fact it has zero history here, less then 100 years even. Culturally it is even worse then that; rather it is typically in open conflict with Swedish traditions and customs. Islam only exists there due to the influx of immigrants and fake refugees who brought it with them. Again, this have been allowed to happen without a proper or explicit mandate of the Swedish people (zero votes about it). Anyhow, I digress…
    Well you guys are still importing especially those with backround of Islam or somewhere from Middle East. I don´t know what swedish traditions are but it seems to not something that i would welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    It is mostly due to the fact that election-debates seldom revolves about or are defined by such matters - but by other things much closer to home to the average Swedish voter. The rest, you get as a biproduduct. Most foreign policy-matters are confined to that overall circumstance and that for quite some time - unfortunately…
    Oh no unfortunately you need something from a country which you backstabbed for no reasons without anything that swedish people benefit for decades? How it comes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    As already explained above, besides there is little socialdemocrats won’t try to change if they think it serves their party interests. Sweden doesn’t have much of a overall forign state policy doctrine – save it typically prefers to work with its Nordic neighbours, the EU, export stuff and that it likes peace. An example on how the socialists changed Swedish foreign policy was for instance the official recognition of Palestine as a state – that was done for strictly ideological reasons by the socialists and without any proper democratic mandate. They just did it anyways, and they have gotten away with it (so far).
    You explained nothing. Liking peace while you interupt other countries progress in somehow gaining peace and donating swedish made arms for free is not something that i would define as "liking peace" thinking you will got away with it. Blaming anything that your country is doing while the decisions cames from a ideologicial party is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Don’t be ridiculous… Turkey would never been admitted as a member if it had not been a secular state. Islam (regardless the kind) has a piss poor reputation in Europe in general and the vast majority of NATO members are European and secular. The USA and Canada are both are built on European traditions, ideas and secular as well. There is no such explicit rule but thinking that Turkey would ever have a future as an Islamic authoritarian state in NATO (or had ever been admitted as one) – please, get real…
    Should we really determine which countries inside NATO are secular and which are not? Probably Turkey ones it joined NATO was one of the fewest countries which really adopted secularism as a State policy even before, while some others are still under influence of religious beliefs even if they define themselve somehow of secular, what did they even do further to adapt it truly? This is ridiculous. If Turkey should had future as an Islamic authoritarian state in NATO or not - Turkey was even not in his past (even if it dominated the last Caliphate) a religious state. But whom I´m talking here, someone who mentions european traditions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Again, don’t be ridiculous… It has everything to do with working with Denmark, Norway and the Balic states – in short, regional and national security – for both Finland and Sweden. The Turkish armed forces are fairly strong and that is all fine and well - but it is hardly a decisive factor for actual Swedish or Finnish security considerations.
    Again this makes no Sense read it before you post it. There is not something like that is forbidding to work in security reasons with other countries which are not NATO Members or to cooperate. Best example for that is Turkey and Azerbaijan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    We can’t because of their obligations to NATO - if we too are members as well, then it is a whole other story. And right now, Turkey is the thing blocking/obstructing all such plans, out of all things…
    Look my post above in that case - seems pretty obvious. If you can´t then you don´t want it. There is not something like in NATO that is forbidding what you claim here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    That you are pretty sure, does not cut it. Again, “probably” is not good enough, only “definitely” getting help is good enough. This goes for both Finland and Sweden.

    Well if only then make an Nordic Alliance or Anglo-Saxon Unity Defense Pact and get your "definitely" for Finland and Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Rather it seems to me that you overestimate the importance of Turkey as a singular member of NATO. In its region I’m sure it has plenty of value but beyond it, I doubt it. Such as places like the Nordic countries and the Baltic region, for instance.
    Well at the moment for a European or Westerner of course a country like Turkey with Islamic backround would never had the importance as i would see it. But ones the things aren´t going well then maybe even someone like you even notice about that so-called "oversimated importance" of a country like Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    And again, this is something created at the hands of the socialdemocrats, for strictly ideological reasons - as Sweden and its people does not have any such agenda. It has existed because the socialist party took it upon themselves to play political activism around the world with little thought on the possible consequences, both for Sweden and otherwise.
    Well some of those swedes has on it´s agenda to vote for those socialdemocrats aswell arming hostile groups against Turkey even giving them shelter. The consequences are showing themselve already and what are swedes are doing in that case? still voting for them? If you don´t want it then don´t do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Unfortunate… You will be disappointed, it will be. It is only a matter of time. This regardless if you like it or not. Sweden and Finland will do their part, Turkey will do its part, and that’s that.
    We will see who is doing his part in the future with no doubt on that. I don´t think that sweden especially will do anything in that case.
    Last edited by Nebaki; July 06, 2022 at 12:21 AM.

  3. #143
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Overall, I think we have taken this as far as it goes. I have certainly tried to explain that the activities of the Swedish state in relation to Turkish state does not necessarily have any proper mandate or support by the Swedish people, yet it has been allowed to happen anyways. Either you believe that or you don’t. The socialists voters are about roughly 30-35% of Swedish voter corpus (and this for a long time). Thus they are nowhere close to actually represent the entire Swedish people as such, which is exactly what they claim to represent in all foreign matters (wrongfully). Sweden have had about 50 years worth of stupid and misguided political activism around the world – this at the behest of the socialists in general and Olof Palme in particular.

    Personally, I think it is a tragedy for the Swedish nation, as it has created far more problems then it ever solved. It only serves as yet more ironclad proof as for why all that political activism was a bad idea in the first place. My impression is that you have basically already made up your mind about all these things - discussing it further with you seems futile. No matter what I say or explain here, it won’t matter. So, I will not bother discussing these matters with you any further. It seems like we reached roads end…

    - A

  4. #144

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Overall, I think we have taken this as far as it goes. I have certainly tried to explain that the activities of the Swedish state in relation to Turkish state does not necessarily have any proper mandate or support by the Swedish people, yet it has been allowed to happen anyways.
    What a coincidence, perhaps you have forgotten what the Turkish People think in that Issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Either you believe that or you don’t. The socialists voters are about roughly 30-35% of Swedish voter corpus (and this for a long time). Thus they are nowhere close to actually represent the entire Swedish people as such, which is exactly what they claim to represent in all foreign matters (wrongfully). Sweden have had about 50 years worth of stupid and misguided political activism around the world – this at the behest of the socialists in general and Olof Palme in particular.
    I don´t have to believe you. The swedish people who are voting over 50 years for those so-called misguided political activism around the world are responsible for this. 30/35% makes 1/3 of a Population which is are huge number in a so-called democracy of sweden to became elected. Atleast after 50 years i guess people should be aware and notice for what they have been voting for decades and they would change it if they wouldn´t like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Personally, I think it is a tragedy for the Swedish nation...
    From a viewpoint of a swede i guess it should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    My impression is that you have basically already made up your mind about all these things - discussing it further with you seems futile. No matter what I say or explain here, it won’t matter. So, I will not bother discussing these matters with you any further. It seems like we reached roads end…
    Well...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  5. #145

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Funny how all the freedom/human rights stuff goes out the window as soon as powerful globalist interests step in. Erdogan might as well milk this for all he can get. Smaller NATO countries could probably get something out of this too.

  6. #146
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    https://apnews.com/article/nato-poli...a033e74067b6f4

    So Erdogan is not going to support Sweden's bid to join NATO. This might just after the May 14 election in Turkey. If Erdogan is pushed out there's a chance. However this also likely means the US will not sell any F-16s let alone issue of the F-35.

  7. #147

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    So Erdogan is not going to support Sweden's bid to join NATO. This might just after the May 14 election in Turkey. If Erdogan is pushed out there's a chance. However this also likely means the US will not sell any F-16s let alone issue of the F-35.
    Erdogan's Turkey does not support the westward expansion of NATO. That has become abundantly clear. All of these increasing and seemingly random demands are just theatrical acts and aimed at stalling and making NATO look weak. In the west, where individual freedoms of expression are still respected to some degree, a leader making it a serious diplomatic issue that an individual person from a fringe of the fringe political movement burned a holy book or a flag would lose face immediately.

    Our foreign policy is not driven nor affected by some random Deniz Demirci (sorry for anyone actually called that) burning a Finnish flag.

  8. #148
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Erdogan's Turkey does not support the westward expansion of NATO. That has become abundantly clear. All of these increasing and seemingly random demands are just theatrical acts and aimed at stalling and making NATO look weak. In the west, where individual freedoms of expression are still respected to some degree, a leader making it a serious diplomatic issue that an individual person from a fringe of the fringe political movement burned a holy book or a flag would lose face immediately.

    Our foreign policy is not driven nor affected by some random Deniz Demirci (sorry for anyone actually called that) burning a Finnish flag.
    It was all a sham in the first place to try and squeeze as many extraditions of "Gulen supporters" in the first place from Sweden and Finland, and now they found an "excuse" to push it one step further. Expecting a country that has either invaded, got actively involved or is threatening to invade almost every single of its neighbouring countries to abide to stuff like that is an illusion.
    All these years of cozing up a wanna-be Sultan (especially from the German side), allowing MIT to infiltrate and do heavy lobbying inside many European parliaments (if Qatar-gate shocked you, just wait till we will find out (if we will ever do so) how many guys in the European Parliament had received paychecks from Turkey) and having billions of European money invested into Turkey now means that we are stuck, since no one will be particularly eager to dispose Erdogan quickly, before they get all their money back. And many still have the illusion that if we appease him long enough, he will eventually become "friendly" again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://apnews.com/article/nato-poli...a033e74067b6f4

    So Erdogan is not going to support Sweden's bid to join NATO. This might just after the May 14 election in Turkey. If Erdogan is pushed out there's a chance. However this also likely means the US will not sell any F-16s let alone issue of the F-35.
    As if dictators like Erdogan are going to lose an "election". Just throw some opposition politicians to jail, change some electoral laws to benefit you and boom, victory. If that is not enough, just improve some numbers and you are set. And even if you somehow lose, just call for the elections to be repeated citing .docx
    Last edited by Gyrosmeister; January 23, 2023 at 05:17 PM.


  9. #149
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    ^Better keep nato free of countries that invade/are dictatorial, but only if their name is Russia ^^
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  10. #150

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post

    So Erdogan is not going to support Sweden's bid to join NATO. This might just after the May 14 election in Turkey. If Erdogan is pushed out there's a chance.
    It is not Erdogan but Turkey who is not supporting it. Overall didn´t we got a Thread for that?

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...Sweden-Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    However this also likely means the US will not sell any F-16s let alone issue of the F-35.
    That is something between Turkey and USA not Finno-Swedish application to NATO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Erdogan's Turkey does not support the westward expansion of NATO.
    Not Erdogan's whole Turkey is not supporting to be allied with Countries which are openly supporting Hostile Groups towards Turkey and even questioning their territorial Sovereignty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    All of these increasing and seemingly random demands are just theatrical acts and aimed at stalling and making NATO look weak. In the west, where individual freedoms of expression are still respected to some degree, a leader making it a serious diplomatic issue that an individual person from a fringe of the fringe political movement burned a holy book or a flag would lose face immediately.
    No one has the right to insult values ​​that have meaning for the vast majority. This could be religion or something else. It can be discussed, criticized, even claimed to be wrong and tried to refute, but it is essential to do this without insulting. Getting protection from law enforcement while conducting an act of insulting and describing it as a freedom of expression is nothing else then hypocrisy at its finest.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    This is the swedish Law regarding that Issue:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Our foreign policy is not driven nor affected by some random Deniz Demirci (sorry for anyone actually called that) burning a Finnish flag.
    Who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    It was all a sham in the first place to try and squeeze as many extraditions of "Gulen supporters" in the first place from Sweden and Finland, and now they found an "excuse" to push it one step further. Expecting a country that has either invaded, got actively involved or is threatening to invade almost every single of its neighbouring countries to abide to stuff like that is an illusion.
    I know a Country that has done this exactly in his past and changed his view after some Footsteps of Turkish Soldier knocked on his door. I guess it was called Greece but maybe I'm mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    All these years of cozing up a wanna-be Sultan (especially from the German side), allowing MIT to infiltrate and do heavy lobbying inside many European parliaments (if Qatar-gate shocked you, just wait till we will find out (if we will ever do so) how many guys in the European Parliament had received paychecks from Turkey) and having billions of European money invested into Turkey now means that we are stuck, since no one will be particularly eager to dispose Erdogan quickly, before they get all their money back. And many still have the illusion that if we appease him long enough, he will eventually become "friendly" again.
    I mean Europe has invested somewhere his money and it is stuck without any value but that is definitely not Turkey. Funny how someone is trying to blame Turkey with some exaggerations even linking the scandal with Qatar to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    As if dictators like Erdogan are going to lose an "election". Just throw some opposition politicians to jail, change some electoral laws to benefit you and boom, victory. If that is not enough, just improve some numbers and you are set. And even if you somehow lose, just call for the elections to be repeated citing .docx
    Better look at the Mirror on yourself:

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...spying-scandal
    Last edited by Nebaki; January 28, 2023 at 07:17 PM.

  11. #151
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    That is something between Turkey and USA not Finno-Swedish application to NATO.
    Sweden and Finland being accepted into NATO is important to the US. The US is not going to to sell Turkey F-16s if Turkey continues to block their applications. (I think it's just Sweden though)

    You act like those are separate issues but in American eyes they are certainly not. Senator Bob Menendez has the last word when it comes to approval of sale of aircraft to Turkey and he has vowed to continue to block any sale of warplanes to Turkey over current and past Turkish actions.

    At this rate the only countries that Turkey will be able to buy aircraft from are Russia and China.

  12. #152
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Sweden and Finland being accepted into NATO is important to the US. The US is not going to to sell Turkey F-16s if Turkey continues to block their applications. (I think it's just Sweden though)

    You act like those are separate issues but in American eyes they are certainly not. Senator Bob Menendez has the last word when it comes to approval of sale of aircraft to Turkey and he has vowed to continue to block any sale of warplanes to Turkey over current and past Turkish actions.

    At this rate the only countries that Turkey will be able to buy aircraft from are Russia and China.
    The application block is just an election bone to chew on for Erdogan. I think once the election has passed, this might quietly become a solved dispute. For now it gives Erdogan something to puff his chest over.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  13. #153

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    The application block is just an election bone to chew on for Erdogan. I think once the election has passed, this might quietly become a solved dispute. For now it gives Erdogan something to puff his chest over.
    This is not an Erdoğan issue. Sweden is the odd elephant in the room here. They need to be able to bare minimum against PKK in their country for Turkey to safely accept Sweden into NATO. Otherwise, what's the point of a defense pact?
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #154
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    exactly how is sweden supporting the pkk and what is turkey asking sweden to do with the pkk kurds residing in sweden?

    Just saying: sweden is a fairly advanced democratic country. On the other hand we have erdogan's turkey. the real elephant here is turkey.
    Last edited by mishkin; January 29, 2023 at 04:55 AM.

  15. #155

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    exactly how is sweden supporting the pkk and what is turkey asking sweden to do with the pkk kurds residing in sweden?

    Just saying: sweden is a fairly advanced democratic country. On the other hand we have erdogan's turkey.
    Let me give an example:

    Major Sweden bank hosts account which raises funds for PKK
    A major Swedish bank continues to host an active account fundraising for the outlawed and designated terror group, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), despite efforts by Sweden's government to limit the influence of the group within the country in agreement with Turkiye.
    According to the Swedish news outlet, Fria Tider, the Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken (SEB) – one of the largest banks in Sweden and Scandinavia, as a whole – facilitates and hosts a customer account through which cloth symbolising the PKK has been sold.
    The proceeds from those sales, the report stated, were transferred to the PKK after being deposited in the SEB account, in a continual effort to fundraise for the designated terror group.
    As Europol's 'EU Terrorism Situation & Trend Report 2022' detailed last year, the PKK continues to "use Europe for fundraising by legal and illegal means," through methods including "fundraising campaigns and donations, as well as extortion and other organised criminal activities."
    It added that, over the years, "PKK members were also allegedly involved in organised crime activities such as money laundering, racketeering, extortion and drug trafficking."
    This piece alone shows how Sweden's promises to curb PKK presence in their country as just words. Sweden has been known to be a country where PKK employed propaganda and funding schemes with little scrutiny. What Turkey opposes is basically this:



    Just treat it the way you would treat ISIL propaganda and funding schemes.
    The Armenian Issue

  16. #156
    StarDreamer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    This is not an Erdoğan issue. Sweden is the odd elephant in the room here. They need to be able to bare minimum against PKK in their country for Turkey to safely accept Sweden into NATO. Otherwise, what's the point of a defense pact?
    This is entirely an Erdogan issue. He is trying to demand things that any law-abiding(or self-respecting) republic would ever give in to. He is fully aware of this fact, and he is doing it for 3 possible causes. Trying to extract material concessions(from the US), trying to look though for his "election" or he's just sucking up to Putin. All the theatrics he put on for one far-right nutter did(burning some paper), giving the nutter exactly what he wanted, attetion, just screams of insecurity and a total lack of sincerity in his demands.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    https://www.politicalcompass.org/ana...2.38&soc=-3.44 <-- "Dangerous far right bigot!" -SJWs

  17. #157
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    I have no doubt that any illegality in sweden will be punished by the swedish authorities.

  18. #158
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    A question addressed at the original post:

    Why do we care?
    Finland and Sweden have been non-NATO members for a long time and everybody was fine about it.

    The way I see it, a small group of American-surreptitiously-backed politicians in each of these countries found a historical opportunity in the concerns raised by Russian (defensive) aggression in order to tip the balance of public opinion in favor of joining an alliance that since the end of the cold war has been little more than a shopping outlet for the American military industrial complex.

    If the Finns and the Swedes want to allow the installation of American equipment in their territories they don't need NATO official membership.
    The way things are, they are better off outside of NATO and the government of Turkey is doing the peoples of these countries a favor.

    Not to mention, from the point of view of a cynical Greek, the government of Turkey is doing the people of Greece a favor every time it antagonizes the US.

  19. #159

    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    Quote Originally Posted by StarDreamer View Post
    This is entirely an Erdogan issue. He is trying to demand things that any law-abiding(or self-respecting) republic would ever give in to. He is fully aware of this fact, and he is doing it for 3 possible causes. Trying to extract material concessions(from the US), trying to look though for his "election" or he's just sucking up to Putin. All the theatrics he put on for one far-right nutter did(burning some paper), giving the nutter exactly what he wanted, attetion, just screams of insecurity and a total lack of sincerity in his demands.
    What you think he demands is inconsequential given that evidently PKK roams freely in Sweden. What Turkey expects of Sweden is fairly basic. There is a reason why the focus have been on Sweden and not Finland.


    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I have no doubt that any illegality in sweden will be punished by the swedish authorities.
    Is it legal for ISIL supporters to hold rallies in Stockholm?
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; January 29, 2023 at 05:45 AM.
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #160
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: NATO: Turkey vs. Sweden/Finland

    I thought we were talking about the PKK

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