Probable Clue to the Solution to the Pike Problem?

[randy_cat]

The battle of cynocephalae was lost because of poor strategic decisions by the macedonian commander. He split the phalanx in 2, with one part remaining back near the camp, and they had to rush up to the hill in order to support the other half of the phalanx, but in their rush they couldn't form up a proper formation and they were killed by the roman heavy infantry. Anyway it is clear that heavy infantry with high armor should have somewhat an advantage against pikes ( with a lot of protection the heavy infantry can run through the pikes and engage them in melee ). The roman infantry of the time was mainly equipped as hastati and principes so they weren't exceptionally armoured but fairly well protected, that's true.

If you like, try my personal sub mod ( " eb2 overhaul submod " ) in which i fixed the phalanxes by giving them better stats but with lower weapon lethality so they aren't overkill, but neither they are weak.

[Sint]

( with a lot of protection the heavy infantry can run through the pikes and engage them in melee ).

Yes in the 16th century with full plate armor ,but not during the time perdiod that EB2 is set in at least not for anyone that isn't a cataphract.There is a lot of weight behind a pike push and even the best armored roman troops still had a lot of unarmored areas.

Plutarch, The Parallel Lives The Life of Aemilius

the Romans tried to thrust aside the long spears of their enemies with their swords, or to crowd them back with their shields, or to seize and put them by with their very hands;while the Macedonians, holding them firmly advanced with both hands, and **piercing those who fell upon them, armour and all, since neither shield nor breastplate could resist the force of the Macedonian long spear, ** hurled headlong back the Pelignians and Marrucinians, who, with no consideration but with animal fury rushed upon the strokes that met them, and a certain death. When the first line had thus been cut to pieces, those arrayed behind them were beaten back; and though there was no flight, still they retired towards the mountain called Olocrus,so that even Aemilius, as Poseidonius tells us, when he saw it, rent his garments. For this part of his army was retreating, and the rest of the Romans were turning aside from the phalanx, which gave them no access to it, but confronted them as it were with a dense barricade of long spears, and was everywhere unassailable.

Frontal attacks against a pike formation were stupid and incredible costly for the attacker even for the well armored roman infantry.Phalanxes should be defeated by flanking not by sending heavy infatry for a frontal attack.

[randy_cat]

Frontal attacks against a pike formation were stupid and incredible costly for the attacker even for the well armored roman infantry.Phalanxes should be defeated by flanking not by sending heavy infatry for a frontal attack.

" Weakness to heavy infantry " i mean at least principes level infantry. They have enough equipment to whitstand pikemen, mainly thx to their large shields and chainmail. I don't mean they should beat a phalanx but at least pin them in place while more mobile units try to flank them. To beat a phalanx of pikes frontally it takes something like hypaspist level infantry, i think they can deal with pikemen thx to their high quality equipment and training.

[Pooploop]

Randy_cat...uhm exactly? The part (at Cynoscephalae) that was held back was (in game terms) a bunch of phalanx units going uphill (with their right already way ahead pushing the romans back) with some of their own units way ahead and some far behind. Depending on how you read "not formed up", some of them (in-game terms) didn't even have spearwall on, 'cause that whole section had to try and catch up with the right. Also...that was the flank of the Macedonian army that got assaulted by...elephants. So that part of the phalanx line was a phalanx that had big gaps, some didn't have spearwall on, others did but were in that stage where (as those who play know) a good portion were about-faced and slowly getting into position and were not even bracing, the terrain they were on was hilly so the line had inevitable little gaps, and finally they got charged by elephants and then the entire roman right flank. These guys were most equivalent to deuteroi phalangitai as the regular phalangitai and the agema were on the right (who were pushing the enemy back). How is this horrible situation, which other more "normal" infantry would probably also suffer terribly, supposed to demonstrate that the phalanx was bad at direct melee? Mind you, this is the same battle where the Macedonian right wing was rolling back the Roman left. Oh an extra note...there was heavy fog in the area between the Macedonians and the Romans...yeah Phillip V sent his army piecemeal into that.

As the units are of now, can you say even regular or agema phalangites are capable of imitating the Macedonian right at Cynoscephalae by pushing Polybian-era legions back with their guard mode ON and their stats being what they are? That Macedonian right was no passive bystander waiting for their auxiliaries to take the Romans on their rear, they pushed the Latins back in a head on infantry to infantry clash. How badly would an AI stack composed of mostly phalangites suffer if this was pure auto-resolve? So, with what I have observed, +2 to total defensive scores (specifically +2 to defensive skill, not armor or shield) of all units with "phalanx" ability and guard mode OFF. Should be an improvement without making them too strong.

P.S. Also randy_cat....hypaspist level infantry? Isn't that the regular equipment most better hoplites had during Philip II's time and Alexander's???? The macedonians were not stumped by densely packed heavy infantry with shorter weapons. They were stumped by looser, more open order companies with encompassing protection (the big, long shields) that did not hinder their mobility. Infantry that could quickly (well quicker than them) scatter and attack from all directions and retreat when they could not. Infantry that could constantly pelt them with javelins and other missile weapons, but could suddenly switch to close quarters melee, while not breaking. The other thing that stumped them, well...was another phalanx. With longer spears....

[randy_cat]

Maybe i exaggerated by saying " hypaspist level " since they are by far the best infantry unit avaiable in EB2, even tho they aren't portrayed realistically because hypaspist in fact were medium elite infantry with lighter equipment than hoplitae, not the super heavy infantry like in EB2.

Anyway i meant that phalanxes should be somewhat vulnerable to very heavy infantry in general, when engaged frontally. They should not however, be extremely weak to flanking attacks like they usually are in most mods and also in vanilla game, because pikemen are not lobotomized soldiers who cannot turn their spears towards the incoming enemy. But since they cannot turn their spears in the game because mechanics, they should instead be given some better stats in order to avoid total slaughter.

As i was saying, i made a personal sub mod where i basically delivered players their hot dreams about total war. Try it out if you like the idea of better phalanxes and much more...

[Pooploop]

Will do!

[Shoebopp]

i made a personal sub mod where i basically delivered players their hot dreams about total war.

That sounded... raunchy. I have had "hot dreams", and played Total War... I don't know if I want a mod that delivers both

[randy_cat]

That sounded... raunchy. I have had "hot dreams", and played Total War... I don't know if I want a mod that delivers both

Are you afraid of your panties becoming wet? ... don't worry, my mod is not that good

[Gunydii]

So I'm obviously down for people testing things out but I do wonder about one of the premises of this argument.

On one of the previous occasions this came up, I tested pikes vs their hoplite equivalents. Until you get to elite level, pikes win comfortably.

Tested in a fairly sterile environment, pikes chew through hoplites (until the elite level).

I think hoplites are strong. As such I'm not convinced pikes are weak.

How the AI manages the formations is a distinct by related question, but head to head, pikes are strong.

[Pooploop]

If you did this with their guard modes on, then you have a different sort of pike unit, mate. Head to head, with guard modes on, EB2's sarissas lose to hoplites...and if they were used by the ai, even more so. The initial clash ('cause the ai just right clicks them without pausing to dress the battle line, as it were) causes high casualties for the pikemen, to the point that if a single ai used sarissa phalanx gets charged by two hoplite units, there's a good chance the phalanx routs after a few minutes. Add the fact that EB2 pikemen have a problem with enemy infantry ghosting through their formation, well...that's a recipe for disaster. The problem is slightly mitigated if you turn guard modes off, but then it becomes more imperative that you never right click the enemy, but pause the phalanx 10 seconds or so before contact (so their formation is perfect and aligned). The AI is incapable of doing that, however. Mind you, I hope the tests you did were with deuteroi phalangitai and lower, 'cause the agema phalanx is the only pike unit in EB2 that's ok even if used with guard mode on.

Also, Devs (who probably already know this), for EB2 the only thing that can save the pike users (the whole roster in their performance in real time and auto-resolve battles - from the weak eastern levy phalanx all the way to the Macedonian regulars) seems to be a rebalancing of stats (+2 to defense at minimal, but for extreme changes maybe -2 to attack and +6 or so to defense). I've meddled with intercept values in battle config, changed the battle animation to vanilla, fidgeted with unit mass, and a lot of other minor changes, but enemy infantry just ghost through no matter what. Other mods (e.g. DAC) just got rid of the secondary weapon for their pike units, and kept the vanilla animation, but their formations have way better integrity than eb2's. Something else was changed that screwed everything up, I'm guessing it has to do with the melee hit rates in battle config (but we can't restore that to vanilla values because it destroys the game balance for everything).

Well, I'm just hoping that in the upcoming release pikemen get improved. As long as they stop being passive meatshields and finally get the ability to PIN the foe (disengaging enemy infantry should be punished), then I'm ok. Hopefully, this also coincides with them still being relevant in auto-resolve, so ai factions that use a ton of phalangites don't get steamrolled by their neighbor ai.

[hazman232]

The latest update already has guard mode disabled by default no?

[Gunydii]

If you did this with their guard modes on, then you have a different sort of pike unit, mate. Head to head, with guard modes on, EB2's sarissas lose to hoplites...

Grassy plains, 5 hoplite vs 5 pikes with javelin generals.

I play the pikes vs hard AI hoplites (note normal is considered more appropriate for testing as the AI gets buffs)

I drag and drop the troops, slightly deeper formation than default. Hit start battle.

I click each unit of hoplites, with a corresponding pike unit. That is all my input.

my line practically gets turned on my right due to the AI running round rather than running at me, over time it would probably break. but we break their right first.

I've a spare intact unit, if i care to control my men at all we win.

This is completely in-line with my previous testing.

I'm using 2.35A R3.5 I believe this is the most recent update.

This isnt to say that the AI as the pikes wouldnt do something stupid. as noted thats a related but distinct discussion. It's also quite possible that another test this plays out differently and my right goes first, but this is a very favorable test for the hoplites. I would like to know how you have to set up testing such that hoplites look like a dominant choice.

Every test I've ever run suggest pikes are better one-for-one than equivalent hoplites until we're talking about elites