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Thread: A wondrous tale about labels

  1. #21
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    I don't see anything here that explains the reasoning you gave me for invalidating the proposal. Like the generic "similar language being found in the ToS". Or where the proposed text actually proposes TWC having jurisdiction over off site info.

    I have asked the questions here, repeatedly. And haven't received a response here. Not bothering to respond because you deem your responses elsewhere sufficient is only marginally less appalling then not bothering at all.

    Which means I am looking forward to those links as I can't recall where you clarified how the proposal addresses jurisdiction over off site facilities. Not to be confused with the multiple times where you flatly stated in response that it does.
    Or were in the ToS the proposed changes are 'similarly' addressed.


    ---------------------

    Couldn't resist, earlier discussion about off site communication\discord preference and request to discontinue refers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Everything so far has been on topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Okay but that's not what this thread is about.
    Last edited by Gigantus; April 27, 2022 at 11:34 PM.










  2. #22

    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    As I said, it wasn't labeled invalid immediately because it could have been reworked to be valid. Labeling it invalid with no discussion is pointless and just leads to more issues.



    It being marked invalid doesn't mean "a good idea was thrown away", it just means that the proposal wasn't valid. A good idea did come from it as the ToS was changed.



    Right - so how can you say that a good idea was thrown away?

    @Garb

    We're talking about The Curia, not the ToS.
    If it was invalid immediately then why was it not moved or closed? I did not see the change in label.

    There is an other issue which is more an etiquette issue also, it used to be a thing to abstain from moderating on a thread where one is actively involved and, worse still, opposing the motion. Given how discussions were going it would have been a good idea to delegate moderation of it and labeling to the assistant.

    If we are going to completely ring-fence the Curia to internal matters then it will never have a chance to positively affect the wider site community.

    I also agree with Garb.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  3. #23
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    There goes my plan to ban pineapple in pizza.

    I think I heard this argument before. Sounded idiotic the first time, sounds idiotic still.

    Or as a wise old man once wrote:

    "The ToS does not apply beyond TWC. How could it? We cannot suspend your facebook account. The ToS applies within TWC and in the majority of cases for actions that have been perpetrated on TWC. However, in exceptional circumstances (there are two cases I remember: the first involved threats to hack the site, posted on another website, the second deviation from Staff Non Disclosure by posting material from the DEn on another website) actions outside TWC, that have an impact on TWC and it's members will be taken into account. I saw no one complained about the suspension of the Tony83 account. The reprehensible actions of this member happened 99% outside TWC, still he was suspended here."

    Help me understand. What Tony83 was doing (if i recall well) used TWC members info (to say it polite) in other forums without those members even know about it (again i am saying it polite).
    In my previus post in this thread i wrote that when we registered in TWC we gave some info about us no matter how crusial to our safety that info was. We did it in the faith that the info would remain secure. Agree so far?
    The one million dollars question. When two Conculs/Moderators copy/paste TWC members info in a discord channel without anyone know it does violate the rule of trust of TWC or not? Has any member , the right, no matter what badge he/she carries to discuss and post TWC members info in a non TWC forum or not? If not what is the penalty for the member that brakes that rule (when he also admited it clear in another thread that he discussed with an other TWC member about TWC members info in a non TWC server [discord channel ). Is his case similar to Tony83 excluding the difference of gravity of their actions?
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; April 28, 2022 at 07:18 AM. Reason: spelling errors
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

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  4. #24
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Let me keep a timer:

    24 hours since the consul claimed he answered here and elsewhere on the site questions about the reasoning for his 'invalid' decisions - but couldn't be bothered to link to a single instance.

    If anyone else has found where he explains in this thread where in the ToS 'similar' text exists, or where he explains that 'from external sources' actually means 'in external sources' be so kind and help me out.

    Unless 'answering' actually means 'repeating my initial reasoning' - that he certainly did. He did give a reason to the last part of my request, but then he hadn't done so before at all. And that reasoning is challenged as well.

    So the request from day one to explain the invalidity of the actual proposal still goes unanswered, even if you allow for the ridiculous reasoning regarding 'carry on' as being explained and ignore if it was valid itself.

    So, can I please get the 'abandoned' label for the proposal or alternately a valid explanation why it is invalid (wordplay for the win) and subsequently why it wasn't closed down on day one?
    Day 5 and counting.
    Last edited by Gigantus; April 28, 2022 at 09:12 PM.










  5. #25

    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Help me understand. What Tony83 was doing (if i recall well) used TWC members info (to say it polite) in other forums without those members even know about it (again i am saying it polite).
    In my previus post in this thread i wrote that when we registered in TWC we gave some info about us no matter how crusial to our safety that info was. We did it in the faith that the info would remain secure. Agree so far?
    The one million dollars question. When two Conculs/Moderators copy/paste TWC members info in a discord channel without anyone know it does violate the rule of trust of TWC or not? Has any member , the right, no matter what badge he/she carries to discuss and post TWC members info in a non TWC forum or not? If not what is the penalty for the member that brakes that rule (when he also admited it clear in another thread that he discussed with an other TWC member about TWC members info in a non TWC server [discord channel ). Is his case similar to Tony83 excluding the difference of gravity of their actions?
    Without too much info as I was the one who intervened off site, members were taken from TWC onto another forum where the purpose of the forum was damaging to TWC - but more importantly to the members. Hex and the site should always have the tools to deal with these situations as it is one which makes me shudder to this say. The member later "faked his death" and we found out the pictures he used were of an English kick-boxer.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  6. #26
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    Without too much info as I was the one who intervened off site, members were taken from TWC onto another forum where the purpose of the forum was damaging to TWC - but more importantly to the members. Hex and the site should always have the tools to deal with these situations as it is one which makes me shudder to this say. The member later "faked his death" and we found out the pictures he used were of an English kick-boxer.
    My friend I know the case. Tony83 was a big fun of CBUR project and that exposion of what he did was a real sjock to all of us. But you avoid to answer the question i did to Garb (i know his true name for example)...
    Tony83 used info of TWC members for his "cause" outside of TWC and without the members in case to know anything. He got the punishment he deserved.
    A concul writes to a post that he discuss about TWC members punishments , awards etc by cpoying their personal TWC info to his Discord Channel without the members in question to know anything about it nore th ehigh rank administrators of TWC .
    Is his action similar to Tone83's yes or no. No matter what info each one of them used (crusial or not) the rule is clear. Unless for Curia members there are double standards on punishments. If there are YOU MAY OPEN wide a door to new Tony83s in the future. If there are not what punishment will aplied to the Cimcul that broke that rule?
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  7. #27
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    '

    This has gone on long enough now and needs to be concluded. I will do so by calling BS:

    - on the consul's assertion that there has been already an explanation for the reasons given after archiving the proposals
    - on the reasons stated after archiving themselves:
    a) how difficult can it be to point out in the proposal's text where it assumes\proposes that TWC has jurisdiction over off site matters
    b) how difficult can it be to point out in the ToS where a similar text exists, eg where the matter is addressed in a way that the proposal does
    - on the reasoning that the proposal was allowed to continue 'to facilitate discussion'. Either the proposal was invalid and subsequently was archived accordingly or it wasn't and could continue
    - on the premise that the proposal was even officially declared invalid prior to the archiving:
    a) this is the format defining an official declaration\instruction, nothing even remotely like it is present anywhere in the thread
    b) if a simple comment by a consul is automatically a valid and official comment then the reason for invalidating is the rather ridiculous assertion "The Curia is not part of TWC Staff and thus this amendment is invalid and not applicable." And considering that in the whole post there was a single reference to staff in the introduction (...commonly referred to as SND.) this doesn't even rise beyond 'totally inapplicable'. The consul in an apparent attempt at explanation then did make clear in the same post that ND obligations only applies to matter submitted to the curia and does not apply to curial officers themselves. Considering that the latter is the sole reason for the proposal (Ensuring non disclosure compliance in the curia) that puts an extra helping of BS on it.

    The unwillingness of the consul to even respond to these challenges (repeating the argument is certainly not responding here) and the resulting 'no change whatsoever' demonstrates how easy it is for the consul to 'game' the system in his favor if he is so inclined. There simply is no appeal to his actions in a single case, even a VonC will not provide redress because it will not permit single incidents (and rightly so) to be considering sufficient to remove a consul. Which means the consul will get away with sucking reasons for his actions out of thin air as long as he does it selectively and not too often.
    I probably should have added that set up to the BS list as well. Addressing that set up in the prescribed manner has been added to my to do list, it may just take some time - curtailing brazen displays of omnipotence\infallibility always does.

    The election process for the next consul starts in just over 2 weeks - in this case technically the only, albeit circuitous and not guaranteed, way to eventually get redress. I certainly won't forget to vote.
    Last edited by Gigantus; April 30, 2022 at 01:19 AM.










  8. #28
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    I've responded to you and others multiple times, I don't know what more you want from me.

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  9. #29
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Actually, you haven't.
    Your 1st argument was that the curia was not part of the TWC Staff and as such invalidating the amendment, while nowhere in the said amendment it was specified such claim.

    On the 1st page of this thread, you then claimed that the curia has no authority over what takes place off site, which is correct only to a certain extend but again, wasn't the main point of the amendment. For your information, check Parafix referral following the Soul Novus nomination, events during which sources from another site, Discord in this case, were shared. I'm sure that you'll notice the subsequent consequences of that "drama" in the curia.

    Anyway, for both arguments, you haven't given a clear and detailed explanation of your reasonning while others have.
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  10. #30
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I've responded to you and others multiple times, I don't know what more you want from me.
    Just one last question which you can not being bothered to respond to as usual:

    Do I get to call BS two times because that's the second time you make the claim without backup, but I asked to back up your claim? Or only once because this is an identical copy of that first claim? It's a bit of a conundrum.

    I do appreciate your efforts here to highlight the hypocrisy and arrogance when it comes to accountability, on top of that I have to make a confession: I didn't really expect an explanation of the reasons you gave: just like in Anthonius' case with the referrals that were used to highlight his perceived wrong doings, providing details would be self defeating: in Anthonius' case it would have allowed what the referrals based on - if acted upon by moderation they would have been a violation of the double jeopardy. And if not acted upon would open a list of assumptions, nothing in it would be complementing.
    I have been remiss here as I was too pre-occupied with the ND level of it and the drawing up this proposal to address this in a timely manner in the ostrakon. But fret not, "defining the consul's merit" is on my list of amendment proposals. After all that's the only criteria for allowing a ostrakon, is it not?

    How is that the same here? Simple. Pointing out where in the ToS a 'similar text' exists comes with two results:

    1. The text really exists. Groovy, the reason was really valid, topnotch. BUT it also means that there is a regulation with regards to ND obligations (for everyone, this being the ToS), which includes the curial officers. Of which the consul is aware. That puts claims as to 'no NB obligations for me' into a rather awkward light. The referrals mentioned would then also fall under it and cast further doubt on the merit applied.
    2. The text does not exist: well, that's easy - it would open a list assumptions, nothing in it would be complementing.


    I leave it up to you if you will eventually respond to the initial questions about clarification - this chapter is closed for me as it has been made abundantly clear in the last week that I will not get redress here and now as there is nothing that provides it (compulsory, good faith, voluntary or otherwise). Which means I will appeal for a redress to the next consul and hope that he will address this by it's merit and not if it curtails his omnipotence. The redress angle is on my list, I mentioned it, I think.

    Note: unlike in the related proposal the indication of abandoning the discussion here is not a request to close, delete, archive, label or otherwise moderate this thread.
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 01, 2022 at 12:20 AM.










  11. #31

    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    My friend I know the case. Tony83 was a big fun of CBUR project and that exposion of what he did was a real sjock to all of us. But you avoid to answer the question i did to Garb (i know his true name for example)...
    Tony83 used info of TWC members for his "cause" outside of TWC and without the members in case to know anything. He got the punishment he deserved.
    A concul writes to a post that he discuss about TWC members punishments , awards etc by cpoying their personal TWC info to his Discord Channel without the members in question to know anything about it nore th ehigh rank administrators of TWC .
    Is his action similar to Tone83's yes or no. No matter what info each one of them used (crusial or not) the rule is clear. Unless for Curia members there are double standards on punishments. If there are YOU MAY OPEN wide a door to new Tony83s in the future. If there are not what punishment will aplied to the Cimcul that broke that rule?
    I think the two cases differ in how they were handled and in their gravity. As far as I know only me and another ex admin saw the information related to Tony's actions and we didn't share the content with the rest of Hex so that we would protect the anonymity of the affected members. I think, and I am trying to remember from years ago, I had posted a thread in hexagon and gave them a summary of what I found and the action I took after the fact. The site needs to abide by the law of the country it is based and what was done was illegal pretty much anywhere.

    The Tony case cannot be compared to this, its like asking for someone "convicted" of libel being given the punishment of a murderer. There will always be open doors for what Tony did and the TWC staff at a Hex level will know how to act if it does, definitely what I had done was not written on any moderation manual or complied with the TOS nor was it codified in any Syntagma.

    If you want a comparative case you could look for tBP's trials. In my opinion, what he did is no different to what we used to do 10 years ago when it came to content we saw people posting on other forums or PM's or MSN messenger logs. But times were different there and we were not so aware of GDPR, the internet was a different place.

    People keep condemning the Consul over multiple threads but no-one has initiated a VonK, if people feel something bad happened Vonk him. I feel it lies within a gray area Gig has tried to fix so I'd vote no.

    Help me understand. What Tony83 was doing (if i recall well) used TWC members info (to say it polite) in other forums without those members even know about it (again i am saying it polite).
    That is the tip of the iceberg as to what he did.
    Last edited by Belisarius; May 01, 2022 at 05:23 AM.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  12. #32
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    People keep condemning the Consul over multiple threads but no-one has initiated a VonK, if people feel something bad happened Vonk him. I feel it lies within a gray area Gig has tried to fix so I'd vote no.
    A singular 'misdeed' won't be viable for a VonC, and for good reason, as I mentioned earlier. The principle is comparable to banning a member - unless you outright post porn or something on that level a single incident will not get you banned. Ostrakon is the same principle - bulk or bust. It differs from the latter in that 'attitude' has no place in a VonC as it is about 'failing to do his duty', or something similar to effect, can't recall the exact wording.
    And the multiple complains all rotate around the ND obligation of the curia as far as I can gather. So yeah, a VonC based on that won't get my vote either.

    Unfortunately there is no independent body to seek redress from the consul's action when it comes to single incidents, resulting in threads like this one.
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 01, 2022 at 04:54 AM.










  13. #33

    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    I thought an ostrakon was for deeds which are against the TOS, community etc and Vonc was when someone or a group do not have confidence in how the person is fulfilling the duties. Could be the definitions have changed though.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  14. #34
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I thought an ostrakon was for deeds which are against the TOS, community etc and Vonc was when someone or a group do not have confidence in how the person is fulfilling the duties. Could be the definitions have changed though.
    Partially right from my view - Ostrakon cannot be about ToS violations, that would be double jeopardy. Instead it is about 'behavior unbecoming', eg objectionable conduct over longer periods that cannot be addressed by the ToS.
    And yes, a VonC is about fulfilling the duties. Making errors in a singular case (like I am alleging here) or errors based on a singular circumstance (like all the ND related stuff as of late) should never qualify as 'not fulfilling the duties'. A VonC has to show a pattern over time where I am concerned.
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 01, 2022 at 05:55 AM.










  15. #35
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    There is no such thing as "double jeopardy" - you can absolutely Ostrakon someone for violating the ToS repeatedly, or even a singular time if it's egregious enough.

    I thought an ostrakon was for deeds which are against the TOS, community etc and Vonc was when someone or a group do not have confidence in how the person is fulfilling the duties.
    You are correct.

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  16. #36
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    You can't. You can Ostrakon someone because "citizens should not repeatedly break the ToS / should not get suspended from the site" but you cannot Ostrakon someone for a specific ToS violation, that's what curia suspensions are for. On paper it looks like it's the same thing but it's not. If we go down the you can be ostrakoned for a ToS violation path we risk sliding into "he posted off-topic so imma gonna ostra him" territory in time.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; May 01, 2022 at 11:32 PM.
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  17. #37
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    There is no such thing as "double jeopardy" - you can absolutely Ostrakon someone for violating the ToS repeatedly, or even a singular time if it's egregious enough.
    The claim 'you can' is the sad part here and embodies what is currently happening in the curia - because technically it's correct: there is no definition of what is permitted in the constitution only that it has to be 'egregious'. And what defines the already subjective 'egregious' is solely dependent on the consul's definition of the equally subjective 'merit' the constitution makes mandatory to have the ostrakon proceed. I suppose seeking to punish someone again for the same offense (double jeopardy) is egregious enough to find merit? I mean the member was stripped of his citizenship once already for the ToS violation on top of the regular penalty - so why not strip him again? Hey, maybe do the same ostrakon again in six months and strip his citizenship a third time for the same offense? After all the consul just said that seeking multiple punishments for the same offense have merit and hence are permitted.

    Now why didn't moderation pick up on that? From what I can see there is nothing in the rules that stops them. The annoyingly high threshold for probation and finally ban might as well not exist then.

    The 'double jeopardy' principle doesn't apply because it's not specified?

    I really have to speed up my 'defining the consul's merit' proposal, let me do one for 'egregious' while I am at it. The argument 'It's not in the rules and hence it doesn't apply', while markedly consistent, is appalling.

    Edit: just for consistency sake - can we get back to the topic? The one where the consul doesn't back up his official claims when challenged?

    I haven't counted how many times I posted it now, so what's one more?
    So, can I please get the 'abandoned' label for the proposal or alternately a valid explanation why it is invalid (wordplay for the win) and subsequently why it wasn't closed down on day one?
    I got a response on the last bit, but the standard 'claim without backup' is not something I would even remotely call 'valid explanation'.

    I am not hopeful: 'It's not in the rules and hence it doesn't apply' seems to be in force here, too, at least where valid reasons for actions taken is concerned, never mind responding in itself.

    But then I don't see the possibility of a valid explanation to start with. Back to working on those amendments...
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 02, 2022 at 12:39 AM.










  18. #38
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I think the two cases differ in how they were handled and in their gravity. As far as I know only me and another ex admin saw the information related to Tony's actions and we didn't share the content with the rest of Hex so that we would protect the anonymity of the affected members. I think, and I am trying to remember from years ago, I had posted a thread in hexagon and gave them a summary of what I found and the action I took after the fact. The site needs to abide by the law of the country it is based and what was done was illegal pretty much anywhere.
    Have you public his actions to Curia or anywhere else before your invastigation was over and create that thread in Hex (the summary) ?
    Did you copied that info outside the TWC site to discuss you next actions?
    Those are the parts are diffenent in those cases. Exept the gravity of the member in question actions.
    Do you agree?
    If yes and two members of administration copied TWC members private info in a internet channel outside the boudries of TWC should they be punished for braking the rules that agreed by accepting the ranks and the responsibillities that come with them?
    If not ...Can i public TWC members info in the Facebook , Twiter etc without any punishment or i will be punished because i am not an administration member? Is that group (administrators ) some kind of mafia that have an omerta and avoid punishments or TWC laws are the same for all?
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  19. #39

    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Have you public his actions to Curia or anywhere else before your invastigation was over and create that thread in Hex (the summary) ?
    Yes

    Did you copied that info outside the TWC site to discuss you next actions?
    Yes to the extent that it safeguarded members.

    Those are the parts are diffenent in those cases. Exept the gravity of the member in question actions.
    Do you agree?
    No because what was done went beyond the scope of TWC and TWC being negatively affected was of secondary importance.

    If yes and two members of administration copied TWC members private info in a internet channel outside the boudries of TWC should they be punished for braking the rules that agreed by accepting the ranks and the responsibillities that come with them?
    It is not the competence of the Curia to judge what was done, I'd do it again today. However, those are decisions administrators have to take and they are accountable to the owner who legally is accountable for the site registered under his name.

    If not ...Can i public TWC members info in the Facebook , Twiter etc without any punishment or i will be punished because i am not an administration member?
    With the amendment Gig made you cant.

    Is that group (administrators ) some kind of mafia that have an omerta and avoid punishments or TWC laws are the same for all?
    Only on Wednesdays.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: A wondrous tale about labels

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    Yes



    Yes to the extent that it safeguarded members.



    No because what was done went beyond the scope of TWC and TWC being negatively affected was of secondary importance.



    It is not the competence of the Curia to judge what was done, I'd do it again today. However, those are decisions administrators have to take and they are accountable to the owner who legally is accountable for the site registered under his name.



    With the amendment Gig made you cant.



    Only on Wednesdays.
    Then TWC register policy must change. No info or email must be asked. If administrators can copy and use our info outside the TWC without asking any kind of consent then our info is in risk. There is no trust that our personal info will be safe by your prospective. TWC must make an announcement to all its members to DELETE ANY personal info of theis because TWC administration can use it like dictators do with people info (when they want , where they want). That was not known back then when TWC asked me to fill the form inorder to register.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


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