SSHIP v. 098 - archive of discussion during testing

[Gaku]

Well look who showed up completely unexpected on turn 13. It's like seeing an old friend.

[Gaku]

[hlidskjalf]

heeey everyone, fantastic mod, i'm lookin for some advice. playing france on h/h, took rouen/poitiers/angers so the "english"/regnum anglorum were removed from the continent. while that happened, regnum legionense et castellae encroached as far north bordeaux and HRE encroached as far west as lyon & arles. legionense et castellae attacked at poitiers, after a good while and a lot of expenditure i knocked out their wandering armies and as i'm just about (one turn away) to take their last stronghold north of the pyrenees (bordeaux), HRE attacks me at rheims. i have levies in each town and two armies which are on their last legs, and i used toggle_fow to see if it's even viable to defend against HRE - they have almost 20 provinces. any tips? or did i play wrong and now i just sit back while HRE steamrolls france

[Belovèse]

Thanks, we'll fix that!

[Gaku]

I really wish I could understand this Byzantine hate-boner. We've been at war since turn 14. They're in 2 other wars. They will not peace out. I've been releasing most captives, yet relations are poor. (It goes up from releasing, but down from the fact that I "attack" them while they're besieging?) My reputation is "mixed" - again, I'm not sure why, because I haven't been doing anything but defending my territory and releasing captives with about 3 exceptions. Depending on how this battle goes, this might be the end for this campaign.

Note: Every time I've turn 4 allied the Byzantines in 0.98, they've just taken my money and break the alliance / declared war on me. What's causing this to happen? How the hell am I supposed to get my reputation up in under 13 turns?

[Macaras]

I really wish I could understand this Byzantine hate-boner. We've been at war since turn 14. They're in 2 other wars. They will not peace out. I've been releasing most captives, yet relations are poor. (It goes up from releasing, but down from the fact that I "attack" them while they're besieging?) My reputation is "mixed" - again, I'm not sure why, because I haven't been doing anything but defending my territory and releasing captives with about 3 exceptions. Depending on how this battle goes, this might be the end for this campaign.

Note: Every time I've turn 4 allied the Byzantines in 0.98, they've just taken my money and break the alliance / declared war on me. What's causing this to happen? How the hell am I supposed to get my reputation up in under 13 turns?

I see they send a nice, full stack to attack you- good . But seriously - I am not sure if you are using the files that I send, or if you copy them in the right place. Did you read the diplomacy guide? Here it is in case you didn't.

I just played 20 turns with Hungary to check your experience. What I did more or less:
1. Poland din't want to ceasefire so I went to HRE and paid them 10000 for aliance - happy accepted.
2. I send diplomat to exchange trade rights with all the neighbors. In the meantime I conquered Olomoc.
3. I didn't build anything in first 8 turns - I needed money. In first 10 turns AI WILL NOT ATTACK YOU (look diplomacy guide)
4. After trying many times in turn 11 Polish agreed for peace without paying anything.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Before they sieged once my capital, but I managed to kick them out, after that they avoided my garrison in Olomoc and were not aggressive, kept in defense positions.
5. I waited until turn 13, sent my spy to check on Byzantines - indeed they were preparing attack, gathering troop near my border. I knew that I will need money so I send a diplomat to ask for alliance. I paid more or less 15k- The result:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Happily Accepted!
6. After I sing ceasefire I have 10 turns at least of peace, after the alliance I have 20 turns at least of not being attacked (look diplomacy guide). I tried it hundreds of times working on AI last months and was never attacked before this time passes. After I sign alliance with Byz, they attacked Seljuks and few turns later Venice attacked them, so for now they are buisy.

At turn 20 I am allied to Byz and HRE my reputation is mixed, most of the relations good or reasonable, Serbia is busy with Sicily:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Poland is fighting with slaves, Venice with Byz. I still have as my neighbors Cumans, for now they leave me in peace. I built watch towers all around to be warned before the war starts and I will keep 10 000 in case I will need some diplomatic maneuvers. The difficult times will come for sure, but there are also mechanisms that will prevent a situation when everybody jumps on me from every side.

I think if we have the same versions of the mod, diplomacy should work the same -so unless I am wrong - Gaku you need some diplomatic skills or start with an easier faction for starters (not like Hungary -surrounded by 6 other factions, with war since the start..)

[kostic]

Your start to the campaign with Hungary is quite interesting, but the principle of paying a lot to obtain alliances does not appeal to me very much. I prefer to form alliances when I have the same enemy to fight as another faction. At this point, the alliance makes sense and benefits both factions.
Paying 15,000 to obtain a wedding ring is equivalent to agreeing to pay more than 2,000 florins for 7 consecutive years. Might as well renounce its sovereignty !

[Macaras]

I think even the Byzantines historically paid a lot to the nomadic tribes for protection from other nomadic tribes from the steppes. Besides - AI will ask for alliances, especially against common enemy but it happens later in the game. I don't know how much it was in real life to pay 2000 florins, but in the game is not a big price, it equals to yearly maintenance of a cavalry unit.

On a second thought - I think it would be good to help Hungarians a little, maybe as Jurand said - make them start with peace with Poland (or at least make the relations very good so that the peace will be easier).. And the Byzantines are overpowered at this moment, but we will deal with that later I guess, once they are weakened also the position of their neighbors will improve.

[Gaku]

I see they send a nice, full stack to attack you- good . But seriously - I am not sure if you are using the files that I send, or if you copy them in the right place. Did you read the diplomacy guide? Here it is in case you didn't.

I'm pretty sure I put them in the right place. Since I updated them, my relations have generally bumped to "Good" with my neighbors from the start (with trade, maps, etc.) And yeah, I read the diplomacy guide, and that's what I mean. If I can get an alliance, but I'm not a trusted ally, then what's the point of the alliance? It's like when Venice pays me for peace (for a war that they started), wants to ally with me, and then instantly wants "War" again - makes no sense. They just lose money for nothing?

I just played 20 turns with Hungary to check your experience. What I did more or less:
1. Poland din't want to ceasefire so I went to HRE and paid them 10000 for aliance - happy accepted.
2. I send diplomat to exchange trade rights with all the neighbors. In the meantime I conquered Olomoc.
3. I didn't build anything in first 8 turns - I needed money. In first 10 turns AI WILL NOT ATTACK YOU (look diplomacy guide)
4. After trying many times in turn 11 Polish agreed for peace without paying anything.
Before they sieged once my capital, but I managed to kick them out, after that they avoided my garrison in Olomoc and were not aggressive, kept in defense positions.

Poland seems more reasonable since the diplomacy update you posted.

5. I waited until turn 13, sent my spy to check on Byzantines - indeed they were preparing attack, gathering troop near my border. I knew that I will need money so I send a diplomat to ask for alliance. I paid more or less 15k- The result:
Happily Accepted!

That's exactly what I'm talking about. They'll ally and take your money. But then give it a short while and they're practically guaranteed to backstab you.

6. After I sing ceasefire I have 10 turns at least of peace, after the alliance I have 20 turns at least of not being attacked (look diplomacy guide). I tried it hundreds of times working on AI last months and was never attacked before this time passes. After I sign alliance with Byz, they attacked Seljuks and few turns later Venice attacked them, so for now they are buisy.

Is that the part that I'm missing? Paying 15000 florins for 20 turns of guaranteed peace seems like a waste of money, especially if they turn around and backstab me on turn 21.

Poland is fighting with slaves, Venice with Byz. I still have as my neighbors Cumans, for now they leave me in peace. I built watch towers all around to be warned before the war starts and I will keep 10 000 in case I will need some diplomatic maneuvers. The difficult times will come for sure, but there are also mechanisms that will prevent a situation when everybody jumps on me from every side.

What are the mechanisms? And more importantly, how are you planning to survive with no economy against the endless waves of stacks once your neighbors decide to turn their greedy eyes toward you? Hungary's base income is complete garbage with most settlements being a net loss for at least 40-50 turns (and that's with building them up as quickly as possible). 3 of them don't even get to utilize "free upkeep" defenses.

I think if we have the same versions of the mod, diplomacy should work the same -so unless I am wrong - Gaku you need some diplomatic skills or start with an easier faction for starters (not like Hungary -surrounded by 6 other factions, with war since the start..)

I guess so. I've got not-a-whole-lot-of-time left before I need to start tending to real life issues, and I'm trying to get a decent timelapse that I can upload to YouTube while I still can. but I'm not going to upload a timelapse of a failed campaign. so I just keep trying and dying over and over.

[Macaras]

What are the mechanisms? And more importantly, how are you planning to survive with no economy against the endless waves of stacks once your neighbors decide to turn their greedy eyes toward you? Hungary's base income is complete garbage with most settlements being a net loss for at least 40-50 turns (and that's with building them up as quickly as possible). 3 of them don't even get to utilize "free upkeep" defenses.

I agree regarding the Hungary economy, very weak, very difficult.. The endless stacks though are something that may be avoided. If you sign an alliance with Byz you have twenty something turns to conquer somebody's else cities, and raise your rep to 0.35 which will be enough to be considered trusted ally - they will not attack you then. Also, If you are lucky they will be busy with other wars which will give you more time. Have in mind also that there are many factions much easier to play then Hungary, if its not very difficult for Hungarians it will be too easy for bigger factions. Last thing - the bigger number of captives released, the bigger rep increase (I think starts from 100 up), at the same time if you kill the captives even once is a big damage for the rep.
The mechanisms are some conditions for AI to let human breathe in the beginning (70,80 turns)- if you have already one or two wars, there is some entry that will lower the invasion rate against human.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I plan to add a loyalist uprising of the Kroats if they're conquered by other faction (similar to the Bohemia script).
Also the bugged by "wait" condition script may help at some point if a Hungarian city is conquered (additionally spawned army).
I'd also make the EBII Ptolemaioi trick with initially empty recruitment pools for the Byzantines - and for the HRE (the Seljucks seem to face three strong factions and be in the firing line of the Mongols, so perhaps not them).

heeey everyone, fantastic mod, i'm lookin for some advice. playing france on h/h, took rouen/poitiers/angers so the "english"/regnum anglorum were removed from the continent. while that happened, regnum legionense et castellae encroached as far north bordeaux and HRE encroached as far west as lyon & arles. legionense et castellae attacked at poitiers, after a good while and a lot of expenditure i knocked out their wandering armies and as i'm just about (one turn away) to take their last stronghold north of the pyrenees (bordeaux), HRE attacks me at rheims. i have levies in each town and two armies which are on their last legs, and i used toggle_fow to see if it's even viable to defend against HRE - they have almost 20 provinces. any tips? or did i play wrong and now i just sit back while HRE steamrolls france

Hmm, interesting insight. @kostic's played a few games as France, maybe he's got some insights. And yes, we need to do something with steamrolling HRE and Byzantines. HRE's power is actually not that historical - it was an empire with very weak grip on it's provinces...

[Gaku]

I agree regarding the Hungary economy, very weak, very difficult.. The endless stacks though are something that may be avoided. If you sign an alliance with Byz you have twenty something turns to conquer somebody's else cities, and raise your rep to 0.35 which will be enough to be considered trusted ally - they will not attack you then. Also, If you are lucky they will be busy with other wars which will give you more time. Have in mind also that there are many factions much easier to play then Hungary, if its not very difficult for Hungarians it will be too easy for bigger factions. Last thing - the bigger number of captives released, the bigger rep increase (I think starts from 100 up), at the same time if you kill the captives even once is a big damage for the rep.
The mechanisms are some conditions for AI to let human breathe in the beginning (70,80 turns)- if you have already one or two wars, there is some entry that will lower the invasion rate against human.

I still think the biggest issue is the map. In concept, the Carpathian Basin should be self contained and easily defensible by reordering troops between settlements. In non SSHIP, forts can completely control access, but since there are no forts in SSHIP, you can't control anything. So in practice, anyone can snipe in from the outside in a single turn, and meanwhile it takes non-mounted units multiple turns to get from any of your settlements to any other settlement with the exception of Esztergom and Szekes. The best way I've found around this is horse archer spam, which is great until the mod randomly removes them from the game.

Makes sense. Apparently I've been doing it wrong. I've been trying to release as few captives as possible, so I've been mowing them down with horse archers as they try to escape. What does asking for ransom do for rep? Does it matter if they accept or refuse?

[Macaras]

Makes sense. Apparently I've been doing it wrong. I've been trying to release as few captives as possible, so I've been mowing them down with horse archers as they try to escape. What does asking for ransom do for rep? Does it matter if they accept or refuse?

If the ransom is accepted there is a slight improvement in rep, but if they won't pay, and you slaughter the captives, then there is a big damage to the rep. I think that if the enemies lose - usually they don't pay as become bankrupt.

[hlidskjalf]

sure if kostic wants to throw some wisdom my way i'd be happy, i took bordeaux from castellae and the next turn aragon declared war by besieging clermont, so now i'm pretty f'd. cheap archer levy armies placed at bridge crossings might be my only strategy going forward

[Gaku]

6. After I sing ceasefire I have 10 turns at least of peace, after the alliance I have 20 turns at least of not being attacked (look diplomacy guide).

I don't think this is working properly. I got an alliance with the Romans, and it's been less than 20 turns, and they're coming to fight me again.
I wonder if this is related to what I said before: vassalization gives an alliance, but the AI will break it the same turn.

[Macaras]

So you became their vassal and they attack you next turn ? I will need to check it, maybe there is some mistake..

[Gaku]

So you became their vassal and they attack you next turn ? I will need to check it, maybe there is some mistake..

Yeah this has happened to me a few times now. But actually it's worse than that.
I end my turn. Byzantine's turn. They're sieging me down. They send diplomat - demand vassalization. I accept. Siege ends. Before their turn is over, they re-siege the same settlement and break the alliance/vassalization.




Also, see:

[Gaku]

.

[Mattus]

Gaku, sorry for your frustration.. Here is a newest version of the AI, just unpack everything into /data folder and replace the files. I hope it will be a better experience! The warmonger faction standing is neutralized in this files, among other changes.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/djsxt...-2022.zip/file

BTW- release captives and take care about your reputation (I see you are dubious), its worth it even if you loose money from ransom. And keep always some 10-15 k gold to pay for ceasefire or alliance.

I have noticed-at the game in progress with Zengid-that the change is sharp and more realistic by copying it in date, at least for now:
1) the Crusaders ask me for peace after I slaughtered an entire army of them, things that never would have happened.... before they would have stubbornly continued;
2) I asked the Fatimids to attack them, upon payment, and they did ( strangely enough! );
3) initially they attacked me more or less all ( Fatimid, Abbassid and Seljuk ), given the obvious initial situation and after containing them I got peace, some by paying and also an alliance;


In all this I have not yet had to deal with Byzantium, the real black sheep of SSHIP - just recruiting so many soldiers at the head of boastful generals would have triggered civil wars and attempts at usurpation.
I set aside some money to ask Rum to help me and will see if others.
I will tell you the behavior of them

[kostic]

I only did 25 laps with France on the 098 version of April 7.
The result is currently very uncertain because the German Empire declared war on me at the same time as the English faction...


This week I will be away. I may come back to this campaign later.


There is a strange phenomenon: a Castilian army goes back and forth between Orleans and Poitiers without attacking me. Wouldn't it be blocked by too narrow passages on the map ?