[Ostrakon] AnthoniusII

[Akar]

Ostrakon

Over the past several months Anthonius has displayed a decidedly negative attitude towards Total War Center and her community. From accusing members of crimes to derailing nearly every topic he posts in to his capricious and unwarranted assaults on staff and other members Anthonius has consistently shown himself to be unworthy of Citizenship. Over the past few months of his regaining his Citizenship his posts have been moderated or referred to moderation more than any non-permanently suspended member I have ever seen in my years as a Consul/Censor. A cursory perusal of Anthonius' most recent posts should show even the most reticent that Anthonius is no longer deserving of his citizenship.

A collection of his posts to review (I recommend searching his entire visible post history as I have, though. His negative and hostile attitude is present in almost every interaction).

Last April he recieved an infraction for off topic posting. In this appeal he attacks the tribunal, administration, and the member who he originally replied to.
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post16020558

Last June he recieved an infraction for insulting others. Once again he proceeds to attack the issuing moderator as well as the member he was infracted for insulting.
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post16033812

Last October he recieved yet another infraction for off topic posting, this time for his hostile habit of informing modders asking for help that they do not have permission to use any of his creations.
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post16056276

That same month he recieved another warning, this time for impersonating moderators for the purpose of threatening those who might use any material from his mod.
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post16056286

Shortly before he recieved those infractions he deleted both of his tutorials, a decidedly uncitizen-like behaviour.
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...=#post16054690
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...=#post16054689

His behaviour in the "Small Orthodox Corner" thread is also hostile and abusive to nearly every participant of the thread.
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...rthodox-corner

Finally, he participated with distinct hostility in the following threads. I recommend reading all of his posts in these four threads, as they paint a clear picture of his attitude towards his fellow citizens and users.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...giving-process
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-Future-of-TWC
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...=#post16090571
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-Vision-of-TWC

Defense

So :
1: He does not provide me a link of the ostracon case thread.
2: He accuses me that my presistance to defend TWC's survival asking sugestions and solutions of its survaval is a negative critissim.
3: he accuse me for deleting my tutorials WHEN I was recieved the awards I have he personaly admited that the deletion has no impact to my contribution to TWC EVEN for teh award of the Opifex.
This has becoime a personal vendeta. If TWC has desided that is about to die atleast accuse those that speed up that proccedure and not me.

EDIT:
Since when a modder has no right to give or not permision to his creations
Since when a modder that has WRITEN licence from real artists and historians has no right to preserve those copyrights that actually donated to him?
Since when a tutorial maker has no right to delete his own work when all he recoeves is ignorance and irony? Help TWC but sufair irony and gnorance do not fit together.
The Orthodox link provides the entire thread...Where exctly i am hostile on anyone exept by defending my thesis knowing the Orthodox Church Law having a friend that teaches it?
About the rest read th eentire conversation and make up your minds. The injustice never lasts for ever.

[Narf]

I love TWC, I see some attempts at seeking a better path forward, which is always admirable.

These solutions though, when tinged with the following view below, or coming from such a position, get hard for me to see how they'll bring with them solutions that benefit the site as a whole:

Anthonius-

Inmypoint of view that experessed many times in the past TWC is an old Horse proud but old. The most honorable thing we can do is to kill it fast painless. Even the greatest modders and tool makers now say "if you want our help come to our discord or donate to our patreon acount. I am sorry to say this but its time for TWC to die.

On his best days, he's approached me with art requests for his mods, which speak of a desire to contribute to our unique family and home. This sets him high in my esteem.
At his worst, he expresses wanting to remove his decade long contribution, from the site, entirely. That this is time for this strange gathering of nerds and weirdos to die. This confuses and muddy things for me.

I'm far from well-read in the discussions linked above, it's not my scene normally. So take what I say with salt.

We are not dead, the site has so many great things to offer, and we have many great things for each other to offer. When this has run its course, let us get back to that.

[Sir Adrian]

Opposed. The author could have done much better. Yes the intentionally bad spelling is ridiculous, and yes he does get into long-winded rants about the imaginary superiority of Greeks, but that's completely insufficient to strip him of citizenship. If anything the Curia needs 10-15 more anthoniuses to fight the ongoing degradation.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Oppose. Among Med2 moddes he's an active modder, and we need activity of modders. I also perceive him to be a good person, with sometimes too strong one-sided views and opinions. But who's immaculate these days...

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

I'll go ahead and step in. I dislike Anthonius's approach. ToS aside I often see unconstructive tones and takes from his posts. But there's also clues that he does care overall, however misguided that approach is.

Referring to moderation history is speculative and can, as Mish points out in the CCT, be an outright offense if referring to moderated material or actual moderation history or in this case, since you have only speculation and limited open evidence to know what happened, just irresponsible. Around half the links here reference public appeals (the only evident part of moderation that can be sourced and raised). While I think they clearly show poor form, they do not reach the level of the previous case by far where I would agree the behavior was awful by any standards, even nearly nonexistent ones.

The rest of this argument suffers from the curia's inability to set a bar on what is expected from citizens that differs from the Terms of Service directly. Do I think the problems above supersedes the contributions that got him citizenship and awards after that? Not really.

Finally, trying to decide on 'citizen like behavior' aside from being unspecified in general is a bit ironic here, I think. I think it's obvious who raised this ostrakon, and anyway it's up to the Consul to decide if it has merit as well, so either way I think it's a fair pot shot to say that Akar is not the one to say what constitutes good behavior, form or practice in the Curia. Administratively, as far as keeping up on the janitorial aspects, yes and well proven. Drawing lines and deciding what's citizen like or not, no.

Basically, this is all very interesting, but much ado and poorly built. Not where to draw the line. It would have probably gotten farther when curial sanctions were more nuanced than zero, or 100. But here we are. Oppose.

[Axalon]

I'll be short... Dismiss (this proceeding)...

- A

[Lifthrasir]

I'll go ahead and step in. I dislike Anthonius's approach. ToS aside I often see unconstructive tones and takes from his posts. But there's also clues that he does care overall, however misguided that approach is.

Referring to moderation history is speculative and can, as Mish points out in the CCT, be an outright offense if referring to moderated material or actual moderation history or in this case, since you have only speculation and limited open evidence to know what happened, just irresponsible. Around half the links here reference public appeals (the only evident part of moderation that can be sourced and raised). While I think they clearly show poor form, they do not reach the level of the previous case by far where I would agree the behavior was awful by any standards, even nearly nonexistent ones.

The rest of this argument suffers from the curia's inability to set a bar on what is expected from citizens that differs from the Terms of Service directly. Do I think the problems above supersedes the contributions that got him citizenship and awards after that? Not really.

Finally, trying to decide on 'citizen like behavior' aside from being unspecified in general is a bit ironic here, I think. I think it's obvious who raised this ostrakon, and anyway it's up to the Consul to decide if it has merit as well, so either way I think it's a fair pot shot to say that Akar is not the one to say what constitutes good behavior, form or practice in the Curia. Administratively, as far as keeping up on the janitorial aspects, yes and well proven. Drawing lines and deciding what's citizen like or not, no.

Basically, this is all very interesting, but much ado and poorly built. Not where to draw the line. It would have probably gotten farther when curial sanctions were more nuanced than zero, or 100. But here we are. Oppose.

^^ Pretty much this. I'm in favor to dismiss the case.

[Muizer]

You know, for me this is one of those cases where I probably much rather would have looked away and pretended nothing's wrong. But perhaps I should thank Akar for confronting me with an inconvenient truth. Because inconvenient it certainly is.

I would actually agree with Akar that Anthonius' behaviour has been 'uncitizen like'. That's because my view of the ideal citizen has always been that of someone with certain stoic qualities: polite, reasonable even if at their own expense, seemingly impervious to insult and refraining from outbursts of anger. Anthonius' posting style doesn't fit the bill. Of course, the same could be said for others, but to me that wouldn't be much of an argument. I think generally such standards would be worth upholding ..... somehow.

On the other hand, we decided long ago that modders should qualify for citizenship based on their work. And I think that too is something worth having. And there is absolutely no reason why a great modder should be a stoic. Some of the best I've know were anything but.

So, that is that. I won't try to rationalize it and freely admit I'm applying double standards, or at least weighing pros and cons, when I say I'll be voting against this, simply because on balance I don't think it would be smart to lose the perspective of a passionate modder in order to save ourselves some discomfort.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Opposed. I must say I wonder whether the attempt itself merely encourages the kind of sanctimonious behavior it objects to. If being abrasive makes someone unworthy of citizenship, I’m reminded of rocks and glass houses.

Looking at the four examples in particular as requested:

I will use your words as my answer toi you. IF YOU WANT SEE PEOPLE TRYING TO HAVE AWARDS by their contribution to the site START GIVING AWARDS to those that deserve thme and not to your friends and personal favorite mods. A simple look to the last 40 proposals will give you an idea what i mean. I am 14 years in TWC and no one saw my work or my teammates work to uknowlege their work. If you realy want TWC stop dying start from the high levels of coruption. A modder that creates 20 models can not be awarded and an other that created 200 wont! If that looks fair to you then TWC is doomed. And just like those that you suported in early days of Rome II and betrayed TWC , those now that create the mafia of awards will be the rats that will leave this sinking ship named TWC first. Mark my words.

I have read a lot of sarcasm and the accusation that i make negative critissim. But as far as i read back in the line of posts I DO NOT SEE any sugestion or SOLUTION by you the wise men to allow TWC to survive.
I am not the oldest member in TWC but i will be the last that will leave it.... SO instead of sarcasm and irony prove that your high ranks and awards are worthing having them and find a lolution to save TWC. Everything else is rubish!
yOUU DEMOSTRATE YOUR AWARDS and ranks but what they will be usefull for if TWC dies?
Are you capable to answer these simple questions OR NOT?

I agree this is a fitness forum but HAVE YOU EVER SAW a Greek statue of an athlete (aka Hercules him self) with a modern bodybuilding body?
NO! Their muscles were training is a much different way than bodybuilders ...Their bodies were slim and not like bubbles!

TWC reached its high peak when Garb bought it ...His ownership was the GOLDEN AGE OF MODDING and DEBATING. After he sold it to GED TWC STARTED TO DECLINE.

Nothing we haven’t seen in any randomly selected Proth proposal or D&D thread. He could be coached on the all caps but that’s a fault of style not citizenship.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't know much of AnthoniusII modding history. Based on what others say I'll take it for granted that it's very valuable and crucial. I understand that having considerable contributions to the modding community is a good argument for getting Citizenship. However, I also assume that we'd be speaking the same language that at least covers a fundamental bar. That I'm not sure if we have with AnthoniusII. Given his recent statements from a few months ago I understand how delicate this situation is. Yet, we are determining here whether his conduct is acceptable or not. Its understandable to go easy on him but it's also troublesome to brush away a lot of his conduct for his modding contribution.

[Akar]

On the other hand, we decided long ago that modders should qualify for citizenship based on their work.

We also decided that they would be held to the same standards as other citizens.

Past contributions aren't very relevant when judging current behavior. Good deeds in the past don't cancel out misdeeds in the present.

simply because on balance I don't think it would be smart to lose the perspective of a passionate modder in order to save ourselves some discomfort.

So the precedent we're establishing here is that a Citizen can behave however they want so long as they have a good perspective?

[Sir Adrian]

A citizen can behave however they want as long as certain subjective fuzzy boundaries are not crossed and the ToS is obeyed. Anthonius behavior came close to that boundary but did not cross it, and the rules of football are very clear - the ball must fully cross the goal line with its entire circumference for it to be a goal.

Past contribution is always going to be a counterweight on the scale as long as there people who remember said work and the offense isn't egregious enough. For example in the persecution of Pontifex his good works, and they are legion, were never brought up because the offense was bad enough / the work was long enough ago.

[Muizer]

Yet, we are determining here whether his conduct is acceptable or not. Its understandable to go easy on him but it's also troublesome to brush away a lot of his conduct for his modding contribution.

We also decided that they would be held to the same standards as other citizens. Past contributions aren't very relevant when judging current behavior. Good deeds in the past don't cancel out misdeeds in the present.

So the precedent we're establishing here is that a Citizen can behave however they want so long as they have a good perspective?

IMHO the rules say "yes" but my gut feeling says "no". The best rationalization I can give is that yes, traditionally the idea was that citizens should be held to higher standards than merely staying on the right side of the ToS. But, assuming that is still the case (a point of contention), I feel it does not actually make sense for a modder. Would not the equivalent for a citizen's good manners in debate be something like a modder's helpful attitude in modding affairs? In other words, I find it makes little sense to ostracise a modder for his style of communicating. Anthonius' removal of his tutorials should perhaps be the more relevant question mark.

I'm fully aware this means applying double standards in grey areas, which is a can of worms for anyone who expects rules to be rules. But nevertheless, that's where I'm at.

[PointOfViewGun]

What would you have me do? Vote yes against my instincts because 'rules are rules'?

Given that rules create the whole concept of Citizenship, kinda yeah? If we are to merely vote based on our "instincts," disregarding the standards that make up the whole concept of this institution, then we are undermining that very same institution. Here we have someone that is hostile even to someone that is trying to help him, calling it blackmail, or to someone that's merely doing a procedural job, treating it as a vendetta. Those two very recent incidents likely the culprit behind this Ostrakon's initiation. His past conduct that is often similar shows that its no gimmick. You are to vote based on that.

[Sir Adrian]

There are no hard rules for citizen behavior. They're subjective and fuzzy.

[Akar]

Given that rules create the whole concept of Citizenship, kinda yeah? If we are to merely vote based on our "instincts," disregarding the standards that make up the whole concept of this institution, then we are undermining that very same institution. Here we have someone that is hostile even to someone that is trying to help him, calling it blackmail, or to someone that's merely doing a procedural job, treating it as a vendetta. Those two very recent incidents likely the culprit behind this Ostrakon's initiation. His past conduct that is often similar shows that its no gimmick. You are to vote based on that.

Very well put.

The fact that he is a citizen means he is bound to the same standards as other citizens - whether his contributions have been modding, debating or making funny jokes. Becoming a citizen is an implicit agreement that you will abide by the required standards. If you do not want to be held to those standards, you are free to not become a citizen. A citizen should ideally follow the required standards in all interactions on the site, not just those interactions that are related to the reason they were granted citizenship. Are we to only hold Civitates accountable for what they post in the debate forums? What about the people who granted Citizenship for general contributions to the site? Are they to be held accountable in all regards while modders are only held accountable for their behaviour in relation to the modding community?

[Muizer]

I suppose Sir Adrian is right. Beyond adhering to the ToS, 'citizen standards' are not bounded by rules and in fact these days even the vaguest consensus seems to be lacking. Each of us has their own rules it seems, and my post should be seen in that light.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

What standards have been defined which all citizens are bound/obliged/agreed to?

[Sir Adrian]

Thou shalt reppeth Adrian once daily.

[PointOfViewGun]

What standards have been defined which all citizens are bound/obliged/agreed to?

A fundamental level of civility for one.