Revisiting EB2'S Phalangites (AGAIN)

[Pooploop]

Time to beat a very old and honestly unimportant horse...how EB2's phalanxes work (note: more accurately, how to make phalanxes work FOR THE AI). Yes, it's my favorite topic, because aside from a finally completed trait list that is properly applied to all starting generals and have proper triggers for all new generals to come, and (a bit) more rewarding battles (in terms of giving positive traits to victorious generals, especially when said generals win 40+ battles - not exaggerating -one should expect plus 2 to 3 command stars and not...nothing), it's one of those little itches that prevent me from enjoying what is probably the best M2TW mod.

So, if you remember my old posts, I tried to (and in hindsight, arrogantly) suggest that getting rid of the defensive stance of all phalanx or phalanx type units would make them all work, and would actually allow both the ai and the player to PIN the enemy with their pike units (compared to defensive stance guys who passively let an enemy coming from the FRONT turn about and run away with little to no casualties). So, what happened was, yes, they do the pinning thing, and yes, they do actually push and grind their sarissa points into the foe. The caveat is that said better performance only applies to 3 UNITS: the agema phalanx, the regular phalanx, the mercenary phalanx. The rest of the phalanx (like the pantadapoi and machimoi) or phalanx-"like" roster (so including the german, anatolian, and illyrian "phalanxes") are poop. To capture the essence of the problem: whatever good things you try to evenly apply across all phalanx types positively effect the top three and never come close to capping the gaping hole of sad performance that is all the other pike wannabes. So the dilemma snowballs in that you continuously evenly apply your "fixes" across the whole "family" and the top 3 dangerously veer towards overpowered territory and the rest frustratingly remain poop.

Here's what I can kinda get why the ai's usage of the phalanx (across all of them, even the top 3 - makes them sad and laughable to fight against) has actually little to do with slight derivations on the unit stats the devs (and myself in my personal mods) slap on to them, but how the ai actually uses them (kinda inane and a bit obvious). The BEST way to use a phalanx is to turn OFF the defensive stance, order them to make a formation that more or less matches the width of the immediate opposing formation, park them RIGHT before the opposing foes charge, let them passively receive charging foes, and then when the foe stops charging and just fully commits to a melee slugfest, you right click. The way the ai uses them depends on whether it is defensive as a whole or is going on the attack - the former is passable to mediocre, the latter is a big FAIL. If they are defensive, then they don't do anything, and as the phalanxes are automatically at defensive stance, they become living walls. They don't fight as pikes should, but at least they make a pretty battle line that holds off the foe. If the ai is on the offensive, however, the coding makes them do blunder after blunder. The ai just makes the phalanxes right click whatever enemy is closest to them, then right before they come in to contact, get this...they NARROW their rectangles to squares, so even in a one on one fight they let the enemy front effectively envelop them. It's hilarious. Now, because ai doesn't ever turn off its defensive stance, do you know what happens when you or the ai commits them to attack?? They march right into the enemy formation, let them pass through their first few front ranks AND DON'T DAMAGE THE OR PUSH THE INTERLOPERS. So the ai gets a quarter of their men killed, then (I guess this is why the EB2 devs are so stubborn in keeping the defensive stance on), THEN the surviving back ranks rigidly lock into place (usually with their pikes facing the wrong direction because they are in defensive stance) and make a living scab that holds your wounded line. They look ugly and they don't damage the enemy, but they'll make a nice makeshift "anvil". Also, THEY STILL LOSE TO ALL AVERAGE (like of the same caliber as they are) INFANTRY. Defensive stance just makes them lose slower. Devs, I know the time period of EB2 was a decline of aggressive professionalism among phalangites, but this is just sad.

So, if one applies my earlier "fix-all" "solution" (no defensive stance), the top 3 become proper, grindy, in-your-face, battle-winning (after a long slugfest and not against marian legionnaires) sarissa users. The rest of the pike roster don't become living scabs that'll not rout too early and somewhat hold your battle line, BUT they actually try to push/kill the interlopers, will LOOK like they're fighting and rack more casualties against foes. So, in summary, all pikemen on defensive stance and whether ordered to just stand or right clicked against enemy will make living walls. No damage or very little to opposing enemies, will hold them off, but won't pin anyone (enemy can retreat from battle line with impunity). Now, when defensive stance is off, top 3 become battle winners, the rest will STILL LOSE, they'll lose a bit quicker actually, but the trade off is that they can kill more enemies while at it, WAY MORE (than before which was near 0, but still). I actually think turning off defensive stance for everyone is still valid, because the lesser phalanxes actually FIGHT, but I have to agree with the devs that their performance as a whole is still very very bad.

My next quick fix it was to give all pike users armor piercing. Haha, guys please don't follow this. It just made the top 3 op (agema phalangites, no defensive stance, can obliterate an entire hastati unit from the front with no support faster than normal in EB, only suffered 30 casualties - the problem though was the speed, I didn't mind the low casualty rate actually). The rest were still poop, either with defensive stance on or off. The ai usage of them kinda ruins whatever advantage ap gave them. My rational was that a gigantic pogo stick with a huge spearhead wielded with two hands and the weight of the entire phalangite behind it coupled with the momentum of a charging infantryman against it should be the one melee weapon most appropriate for ap qualities. Balance(in-game) says otherwise.

Now, on to the present. I'm seriously thinking of redoing the stats of all pike users with an emphasis on their defense, BUT I want to STRICTLY base my redoing of their stats on the internal rules the devs set when assigning stats. What I mean is, what value does a sword have, professional training, or nobility in determining an attack stat? I know the primary attribute of this unit (for eg) is 8,but break down that 8 according to EB2 rules. Is is possible to ask for three, ONLY three (pleaaasse) breakdowns for these three units: hoplitai haploi, hoplitai, and bodyguard hoplites. Once I understand the values assigned to the subcomponents of their stats (like why is their defense 12, what part of that 12 is the shield, what part is training), I can recalculate stats for all pikemen.

P.S. Why am I so anal about the performance of phalanxes in general? Why can't I accept that phalanxes were poop post-Alexander, and that they somehow were even more defensive in their role despite becoming (in some areas) the sole arm of decision (as some Hellenistic kingdoms became less ordered and unable to recruit the same numbers and quality of cavalry)? Why can't I move on to less stressful nomadic or nomadic type factions and enjoy cavalry supremacy and leave infantry to be dominated by the copy-cat Romans? Because if I see in EB2 a regular band of regular hoplites fight a regular band of regular deuteroi phalangites head-on and on even ground, I expect the deuteroi phalangites to win, relatively decisively. Why (again)? Because not only are both units composed of men of the same wealth/social standing, and therefore have the same amount of time to train, and both have the same quality of arms and armor (though the hoplites have better coverage), but because of math and reach. The deuteroi phalangites have longer (way longer) weapons and can bring 3 or so spearpoints (in-game), or 5 (historically) spearpoints PER hoplite on the front rank of the opposing force. And they have a weapon that is wielded with two hands with the weight of their entire body behind it and has incredible penetrating power. And that those 4 spearpoints (behind the spearpoint of the first rank) don't even have to worry about getting hit because the enemy is so far off and they can keep thrusting and thrusting. And that most of the time those phalangites aren't going to passively wait for some cavalry force to save the day and they have nothing to gain by passively staying in perfect formation and gently prodding the opposing foe. No amount of lack of professionalism and decline of skill compared to the previous generation's veterans is going to stop a pikemen from THRUSTING. It's all they can do (albeit sloppily compared to Philip's and Alexander's men....and no fast marches, and no in-battle redeployments...so thrusting and staying in formation is all they have left really).

P.P.S. Ultimately, this is asking for EB2 stat rules so I can make a personal mod grounded in EB2 (no op units no fantasy abilities). It has a side objective of appealing to the devs to rework pikemen, but most are fine with it, and there's just me. Eagerly awaiting next patch!!!!

[King Shoshon]

A fine thrust!

I love the Deuteroi Phalangitai. They are just a beautiful and versatile unit. Any Greek army that I can put them in I do, excepting the eastern cavalry-focused armies. Usually when I fight with them I use them as an offensive unit, as they should be. Sure, they take some casualties, but there is nothing more fun than watching a squad of phalangitai roll over enemy infantry before the cavalry can get around to be a hammer. A decent "cheese" strategy I have found is to fix the enemy with a faster infantry unit (hoplitai, hoplitai haploi, etc) then have the phalangitai advance behind them and join the fight. The hoplitai do the tanking and the phalanx just crushes the enemy formation. When the enemy routs the faster infantry are then able to chase down the routers that are still caught in the pike wall. It is a bit vulnerable to missiles, but your light cavalry should be distracting those during the fight.

If you were doing comparisons between units for balancing I would compare the Hoplitai against the regular Phalanx. They seem to me to have similar levels of armor, training etc. The levy phalanx I would compare against the hoplitai haploi. Levy phalanx vs. levy hoplites, that sort of thing. IMO, the eastern pajama-boy phalanx should be poop. Good enough to deal with eastern infantry but crushed by anything wearing any armor or training.

I agree though, that phalanxes should be better than they are. Just because the romans beat them (sometimes) doesn't mean they were weak.

I would like to have a breakdown of how the EB2 devs give stats to units though. I have wanted to tweak some values for units, usually armor, for consistency. It's a big, beautiful, mod; sometimes things fall through the cracks.

[Roma_Victrix]

The caveat is that said better performance only applies to 3 UNITS: the agema phalanx, the regular phalanx, the mercenary phalanx. The rest of the phalanx (like the pantadapoi and machimoi) or phalanx-"like" roster (so including the german, anatolian, and illyrian "phalanxes") are poop. To capture the essence of the problem: whatever good things you try to evenly apply across all phalanx types positively effect the top three and never come close to capping the gaping hole of sad performance that is all the other pike wannabes. So the dilemma snowballs in that you continuously evenly apply your "fixes" across the whole "family" and the top 3 dangerously veer towards overpowered territory and the rest frustratingly remain poop.

I should have known that Pooploop would litter his post with poop, in a sort of endless loop, if you will.

So Deuteroi Phalangitai don't make the cut in this scenario? Interesting. I hadn't realized that or noticed this on a systematic basis.

To be honest, the defensive stance is great when you're outnumbered and fighting in the corner of the battle map to preserve your army against a massive horde of two different AI armies bearing down on you. However, I usually click off the defensive stance once I'm winning the battle and the phalangitai can advance forward to trap meandering AI units as an anvil before the hammer of cavalry arrives. Works like a charm! So I'm not sure what all this complaining is about.

Seriously, though, great thread, was worth the read (my inner Maximus was entertained).

A fine thrust!

I love the Deuteroi Phalangitai. They are just a beautiful and versatile unit. Any Greek army that I can put them in I do, excepting the eastern cavalry-focused armies. Usually when I fight with them I use them as an offensive unit, as they should be. Sure, they take some casualties, but there is nothing more fun than watching a squad of phalangitai roll over enemy infantry before the cavalry can get around to be a hammer. A decent "cheese" strategy I have found is to fix the enemy with a faster infantry unit (hoplitai, hoplitai haploi, etc) then have the phalangitai advance behind them and join the fight. The hoplitai do the tanking and the phalanx just crushes the enemy formation. When the enemy routs the faster infantry are then able to chase down the routers that are still caught in the pike wall. It is a bit vulnerable to missiles, but your light cavalry should be distracting those during the fight.

Hoplitai are great, but after the Thorakitai reforms I prefer the Thorakitai unit, since they're slightly better armored on top of having the ability to throw javelins at will or right before the charge. They're not as quick about it as Thureophoroi, though, and pikemen are also very useful when you line up Akontistai/Euzonoi skirmishers behind them.

I would like to have a breakdown of how the EB2 devs give stats to units though. I have wanted to tweak some values for units, usually armor, for consistency. It's a big, beautiful, mod; sometimes things fall through the cracks.

In my opinion, any unit that has a bunch of guys not even wearing helmets, like the Isaurian archers, shouldn't have anything above 2 armor points. Either that or the Devs should spend some time amending the unit model to provide at least some of them with shiny new helmets. If there's one thing you should protect first with armor in a battle, it's your freaking head, followed closely by the torso, especially the shoulders. This is just common sense that the armies of various ancient civilizations observed.

[Pooploop]

I just wanna make something (said a lot of things already) clear: the goal behind the goal is to give the player (me or anybody who agrees) a challenge. The phalanx type units are...decent...already gameplay wise in the hands of said players. It's when they are used by the ai that you kinda wanna facepalm...

[Roma_Victrix]

True. I understand the criticism and hope the Devs implement your devious designs. In the meantime, though, I'll enjoy kicking some AI ass and smiling as I route their forces using this one neat trick that the AI hates. At the very least the hopelessly dumb AI phalanxes provide a passive wall of spears that hopefully keep your units busy as any AI cavalry tries to swoop around from the rear for the ole MC Hammer move. In my experience, though, AI cavalry usually just attacks your infantry units placed on the extreme flanks of the army or gets routed fairly quickly by any heavy cavalry you've brought to the field.

[Cleitus the Pink]

I have the suspicion that even if all the stat and guard mode problems you've pointed out here get amended, the way the AI uses phalanx units will still be laughable and dumb. Because of the deeprooted problem of Total War AI in general being stupid; extremely rarely does it actually use Phalangites to form a proper battle line and advance together, instead they use the phalanx units as if they're Roman maniples (semi-independent and "mobile" fashion). It always does its part to frustrate me and decrease the authenticity of the battle in general. It's just annoying to see them for example send their Agema to chase my horse archers as their other Phalangites engage my light infantry and main battle line like they're Swiss Pikemen... in squares instead of an actual line. This probably has to do with the structural design of Total War games. It gives every infantry unit the same mobility and unit organization of a Roman maniple. The result is the destruction of the Phalanx authenticity and non-display of the famed Roman professionalism. After all, if a unit of peasant Phalangites organize themselves as professionally as a unit of Principes, where does the brutal and effective Roman training and organization manifest itself? At this point, I'm just ranting about a problem that can't be fixed . Overall I agree with your sentiments.

[King Shoshon]

Hoplitai are great, but after the Thorakitai reforms I prefer the Thorakitai unit, since they're slightly better armored on top of having the ability to throw javelins at will or right before the charge. They're not as quick about it as Thureophoroi, though, and pikemen are also very useful when you line up Akontistai/Euzonoi skirmishers behind them.



In my opinion, any unit that has a bunch of guys not even wearing helmets, like the Isaurian archers, shouldn't have anything above 2 armor points. Either that or the Devs should spend some time amending the unit model to provide at least some of them with shiny new helmets. If there's one thing you should protect first with armor in a battle, it's your freaking head, followed closely by the torso, especially the shoulders. This is just common sense that the armies of various ancient civilizations observed.

I usually use the Thorakitai on their own instead of a support unit. IDK if its just me, but I love making armies of "levy" units and seeing how they fare. The Greeks are particularly good at it. Hoplitai Haploi backed up by deutoroi phalanx, hippakontistai, and the greek skirmisher units. Its cheap but puts in work. But I digress....

Armor-wise, my first discrepancy came with the Italian Renumerated spearmen having an armor of 4 when at most, the units have a helmet and some body armor and at least a third of the unit rolled out of bed, grabbed a helmet, and showed up for battle in assless chaps. Especially comparing them to the Etruscan hoplites who only have an armor of 7 despite wearing the best gear available at the start excluding royal guards.

Looking back at the OP though, I don't know how you could make a unit deadly in the hands of the AI but balanced in the hands of the player. Although I'm not a programmer so there is probably a way to change the AI's behavior or strategy with particular unit types.

[MeiguoJinjang]

I am playing two campaigns at the moment:

EBII (r3.5): Koinon Helen, but have only had a few battles.

DEI (1.30): Rome.

DEI has special spear and pike submods to make performance more realistic (meaning that the lines cannot be passed through like quantum tunneling by the enemy). In that sense, it is excellent, but problem is this. Defensive spears/pike yield little damage. Okay. But a great deal of enemy exhaustion which make attackers super vulnerable to a rear charge by an dagger wielding skirmishers who are fresh. So, this hold and exhaust can be very effective for the player.

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The real problem all these mods are facing is poor basic combat physics modeling and poor combat field tactics modeling by CA. This leaves modders with no code access, but attempts to fix the most glaring problems (like DEI, the enemy passing through your pike formation) with just stats and flags.

It is a shame as this is the greatest weakness of these fantastic overhaul mods: RIS, EB*, DEI, AE ... Whether the goal is challenge or realism, what made Greeks and Romans effective combatants were training and discipline. But the CA approach is simply stats, and not code modeling (meaning lines of code implementing behaviors). What a shame! (I would say it in Latin if I knew how.)

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EB might try to go like other mods like DEI with official submods which let the player pick which side of CA's failings they wish to find themselves which is nice approach, because you can tailor your submods to the faction you plan to play. Another approach is like DMS (Darth Mod Shogun) which comes with a configurator front end so that you don't have to manage mods; just pick your options (also being done by SS 6.4, but I only play antiquity).

[randy_cat]

Pikemen don't have a secondary weapon in EB2 thus they always fight with their pikes even when the enemy has clearly breached the pike wall... maybe it's not realistic but it saves us from the tedious broken phalanxes of vanilla M2TW ( the ones where pikemen would almost immediately switch to their knives ). They also have low stats despite being good on the battlefield, thus they don't do well in autoresolve ( an army with many deutoeroi phalangitai is likely to lose the autoresolve )... i solved this by giving all phalangites more attack and defense, but lower weapon lethality and slower attack speed.

I think the programmers of vanilla M2TW don't really know how a phalanx works. The wall of spears doesn't collapse as soon as making contact with the enemy, and i think the soldiers didn't like the idea of fighting with their shortswords when they have a much better weapon. But in the end, i think phalangites should have a secondary weapon to be more realistic, as long as they don't drop the pikes like they do in the vanilla game.

[Mamlaz]

I think the programmers of vanilla M2TW don't really know how a phalanx works. The wall of spears doesn't collapse as soon as making contact with the enemy, and i think the soldiers didn't like the idea of fighting with their shortswords when they have a much better weapon. But in the end, i think phalangites should have a secondary weapon to be more realistic, as long as they don't drop the pikes like they do in the vanilla game.

I think they tried it in all ways, but in M2 there is no other way.

The issue is that you cannot simulate the front ranks switching to swords while the dudes in the back continue the pikeagge.

In M2, the entire unit either wields one weapon set or another, and the switch is entire.

[randy_cat]

I think they tried it in all ways, but in M2 there is no other way.

The issue is that you cannot simulate the front ranks switching to swords while the dudes in the back continue the pikeagge.

In M2, the entire unit either wields one weapon set or another, and the switch is entire.

In Rome 1 TW phalangites worked way better... the soldiers would engage with swords if the enemy got too close, while other soldiers of the same unit kept using pikes. However it was still broken in the way that phalanxes were too strong, even militia pikemen could hold a bridge or city gate all by themselves.

[Camcolit]

In Rome 1 TW phalangites worked way better... the soldiers would engage with swords if the enemy got too close, while other soldiers of the same unit kept using pikes. However it was still broken in the way that phalanxes were too strong, even militia pikemen could hold a bridge or city gate all by themselves.

Ah good old EB1 uberphalaxes. I think they had inflated shield stats too, were impervious to missiles even from behind, and could be attacked from all sides and not rout. Lategame with silvershield stacks was hilarious.

I reinstalled this mod a few days ago wanting to give the new patch a try but only got as far as editing the EDU, reading old forum threads, and arguing about politics so far

[Shoebopp]

I made a personal change to the phalanxes in my local install where the attack stat was significantly buffed, but the defense skill was nerfed to the ground. As a result, attacking a phalanx from the front will cause your men to get shredded, but if you flank the enemy phalanx with any unit, the enemy phalanx get shredded. I think this is preferable to the current implementation of phalanxes, where they're hard to kill, but don't do much killing themselves. At least from a gameplay perspective, this gives phalanxes a more offensive role.

[Camcolit]

That sounds like a good idea. How much did you increase/reduce as a percentage roughly?

I actually never used pikes either in EB1 or 2 honestly, but would like them to perform a bit more like this. Also with disabling guard mode as OP suggests maybe.

[Jurand of Cracow]

That sounds like a good idea. How much did you increase/reduce as a percentage roughly?

I actually never used pikes either in EB1 or 2 honestly, but would like them to perform a bit more like this. Also with disabling guard mode as OP suggests maybe.

Plus how the AI behaves in such a new setting?
In EB1 I've used sarrisas a lot as Ptolemaioi - it was the main anvil, making the H&A a non-brainer in almost any situation.

[Roma_Victrix]

That sounds like a good idea. How much did you increase/reduce as a percentage roughly?

I actually never used pikes either in EB1 or 2 honestly, but would like them to perform a bit more like this. Also with disabling guard mode as OP suggests maybe.

People say you should do one or the other, but that's not right in my opinion. You should use both. You use guard mode when you want to present an impenetrable spear wall during a field battle or protect a street chokepoint in a defensive siege of a town/city. You turn off guard mode when you want your phalanx pikemen to spring into offensive action, advance, and attack the enemy head on. It is particularly effective to do that with all your phalangitai units at once after cavalry has swooped around the back or the side to flank and crush the enemy in the hammer-anvil tactic. Before that point you let the enemy advance up to your line, get stuck on your spears, and wear themselves out. Works like a charm, especially if you have a decent amount of skirmishers and missile troops right behind the phalangitai.

[Pooploop]

Thing is Roma_Victrix is that the ai is incapable of that "combo" It's a point I'm trying to address on how much Hellenistic states controlled by the ai are essentially "nerfed" vs human players. It doesn't help that the kinda lame stats the phalangitai have makes auto-resolve battles also count against them (so ai vs ai, total numbers being equal, the one with a larger percentage of their forces composed of phalangitai has the odds against them). Finally, I swear this is a problem only EB2 somehow has...why does its spearwall formations allow enemy infantry to ghost through it? Three Kingdoms and DaC's pikemen type units don't have this unique error, and switching the phalanxes back to vanilla medieval 2's spearwall animation doesn't help, and that's with no secondary weapon...

[Camcolit]

Yeah, a related reason I never use pike units is that they are too complicated not only for the ai to use but also to fight against, and therefore a bit cheesy. It comes from their 'all or nothing' nature. You have a wall of pikes that are invincible from the front at the cost of inflexibility but nobody in their right mind would engage them from the front and expect to win without a plan to simultaneously or eventually penetrate or flank the formation. The AI can't really coordinate manuevers to achieve this so parking a carefully deployed phalangite formation and letting them run in to it, or running into them with it, seems kind of cheating.

Pooploop if you have developed a submod that can let the AI do somewhat better with them please link.

[Shoebopp]

That sounds like a good idea. How much did you increase/reduce as a percentage roughly?

I actually never used pikes either in EB1 or 2 honestly, but would like them to perform a bit more like this. Also with disabling guard mode as OP suggests maybe.

+3 melee attack for all pikemen, but reduce their defense skill to 2/3/4 based on if they're militia/professional/elite

[Camcolit]

Thanks