Science will not win over Religion

[razerbelkin]

God loves each of his children as if it was His only one, so big is His love. Witnessing all the pain and sin, I am sure God is in constant pain because of us. Terrible things happen, and God does not intervene, why? I think it´s because of free will. He will not touch it, no matter how much we abuse it. We are allowed to develop into devils or angels. As every parent, God wants us to be like him. For this we are put on earth and are constantly fighting evil and have to endure sometimes heartbreakingly unfair personal hardships in our biographies. Why He chose this cruel way of existence with evil, illness, war and death all around us all the time, was the best way to educate us, is not entirely clear to me. But I am 100% sure that this all will make perfect sense one day. If there was a better or easier way to achieve His goals, He would have chosen it. We must never forget what He suffers and had to suffer to make this way of salvation possible for us. God, the all perfect beeing challenged by nothing even suffered real fear of death for us, and he even endured it. I think we can safely assume that this is the only possible way to go for us. God said to Himself, that all this pain and torment is worth it in the end, so we can be assured it all will be worth it. Thats a very balming thought if you think about it. On our personal journey through life, we can always rely on Him with serious praying, that I say out of personal experience. And if this was not help enough, we can even pray to His mother, whome he whome he loves as such. You can get help when you are in need and ask for it, thats what I often heard and thats what I expereinced myself.

[AqD]

Its a pretty simple argument, Bible says God is good, just, and loving. God approves of ripping open pregnant women and exterminating tribes. So its a fair question, is ripping open babies and exterminating whole tribes is good?

Yes or no, no near death or conversion experiences here, just a straight question needing a straight answer.

Is it a bad thing to have one's faith tested, for the sake of ascending to heaven?

Is it a bad thing to test others' faith, even though unknowingly?

Can you imagine a world without any man-made horror? No blind person needs healing, no hungry kids need fish, no injustice to be avenged, and worst of all Jesus can't resurrect, .. How can you even prove to be a better person? There would be no test, and thus everyone would end up in hell.

[Bande Nere]

conon394,

From the fall of Adam and Eve mankind has known what to expect if he or she continues to disobey or disbelieve God. Noah brought that truth with him and his family out of the flood yet it didn't take long for his offspring to fall into the same old danger by inventing their own gods. Man cannot repent of his own volition because repentance can only happen at God's will for any person and even then brought to the situation where he or she realizes how offensive to God they have become. God knows you better than you know yourself and it is He Who has set the rules for you to follow. Therefore, how is He all that you have called Him?

Wrong. If the only way to save oneself is to be a member of a christian sect that has existed for a bat of an eye in the existence of humankind, that automatically means humankind has NOT known what to expect jadda jadda. Inconsistent.

Could you start using your own words to answer, rather than repeating yesteday's bible class?

Is it a bad thing to have one's faith tested, for the sake of ascending to heaven?

Is it a bad thing to test others' faith, even though unknowingly?

Can you imagine a world without any man-made horror? No blind person needs healing, no hungry kids need fish, no injustice to be avenged, and worst of all Jesus can't resurrect, .. How can you even prove to be a better person? There would be no test, and thus everyone would end up in hell.

It is a bad thing to let genocides happen.

Who decided that? and remember, our free will doesn't really seem so free if everything is preordained by God himself. So in the end its God who chooses what lives we conduct, and then arbitrarily sends us to wherever he believes we should go, based on actions we were not responsible for in the first place.

No thanks.

[Prodromos]

By what standard?

[Lord Thesaurian]

It would be a mistake to think Christianity has a monopoly on moral standards. If Christians find themselves arguing that the idea of eternal torture is only a bad thing according to subjective human standards, I’m not sure God would be too flattered by such inane levels of “ackchewalee.” It’s a purely rhetorical argument and a bad one at that. If you find yourself asking, “why would a God of infinite love and mercy torture his creation for eternity simply for not believing in him (or, for countless billions, never having the opportunity),” the answer is, he doesn’t.

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15946410

[basics]

This is where I disagree with the above post in that Jesus describes through one man what all the others will suffer in hell. If hell is adjacent to heaven and heaven is all Light then for all those souls in hell there will be no respite, no rest, no peace, making it feel as though they were in eternal fire. The feeling never ends. As for the billions who never knew of these consequences I would stress that they knew all right for when Noah made land with his family each one knew that they had just survived a punishment from God for the evil the world had become. What happened next was that for some their imagination fostered in their minds what was not God, rather their interpretation of Him and so for that they were dispersed across the world with differing tongues. God's answer was to pick out a certain people so that His truth could always be found despite the fact that this people were just as rebellious as the others. Israel was born and through them our Saviour and God came as promised to fulfill His part in the redemption of people all across the world.

[Bande Nere]

This is where I disagree with the above post in that Jesus describes through one man what all the others will suffer in hell. If hell is adjacent to heaven and heaven is all Light then for all those souls in hell there will be no respite, no rest, no peace, making it feel as though they were in eternal fire. The feeling never ends. As for the billions who never knew of these consequences I would stress that they knew all right for when Noah made land with his family each one knew that they had just survived a punishment from God for the evil the world had become. What happened next was that for some their imagination fostered in their minds what was not God, rather their interpretation of Him and so for that they were dispersed across the world with differing tongues. God's answer was to pick out a certain people so that His truth could always be found despite the fact that this people were just as rebellious as the others. Israel was born and through them our Saviour and God came as promised to fulfill His part in the redemption of people all across the world.

Moses must have had some interesting DNA, if he was able to father the first Africans, Asians and Europeans.

Except you, right? You got it right, where everyone else got it wrong. And its not

So before your particular sect was invented, which specific religions held the Truth? Only for the past 2000 years should be enough.

Of course, he chose Jews so they could be of inspiration to pre-zulus, first native americans and britons. That sounds rather ineffective for an All knowing God. They had bad internet connection back then.

[Cyclops]

Is it a bad thing to have one's faith tested, for the sake of ascending to heaven?

Is it a bad thing to test others' faith, even though unknowingly?

Can you imagine a world without any man-made horror? No blind person needs healing, no hungry kids need fish, no injustice to be avenged, and worst of all Jesus can't resurrect, .. How can you even prove to be a better person? There would be no test, and thus everyone would end up in hell.

Only if God made it so.

Those are all interesting questions. When the pregnant women gets ripped open, who is the test for? The baby? The woman? Or you and I? Because if God loves us all why does he kill the unborn child?

Anyway none of that answers my question, "is killing babies good?". Go orders a lot of babies killed, he kills a lot of people sometimes on a dare from Satan. Is it good to kill babies?

If its bad then God does bad things.

If you're one of those predestinationalists then its all God doing everything.

I think the Bible depicts God doing terrible things. That's not because the Creator is bad, its because the people who wrote the Bible were bad. If you nail your God to your scripture you end up with a wretched petty deity.

[basics]

Moses must have had some interesting DNA, if he was able to father the first Africans, Asians and Europeans.

Except you, right? You got it right, where everyone else got it wrong. And its not

So before your particular sect was invented, which specific religions held the Truth? Only for the past 2000 years should be enough.

Of course, he chose Jews so they could be of inspiration to pre-zulus, first native americans and britons. That sounds rather ineffective for an All knowing God. They had bad internet connection back then.

DavidBN,

Who said anything about Moses? We are all the descendants of Noah and his family and although we don't have the names of the females we do know that Seth, Ham and Japeth were his sons. Ham was known as the burnt one, meaning his colour was dark and that's where the African came about. That left Seth and Japeth and so we can but guess as to what they fathered, although it is accepted that Shem fathered the semitic nations.

As for the truth we have the Bible to find that, both Old and New Testaments.

God did not chose Jews as there were none until Abraham and his retinue were circumcised at the command of God. That's how the nation of Jews or Israelites were formed and formed by God to carry His word in a world of many gods.

[Bande Nere]

DavidBN,

Who said anything about Moses? We are all the descendants of Noah and his family and although we don't have the names of the females we do know that Seth, Ham and Japeth were his sons. Ham was known as the burnt one, meaning his colour was dark and that's where the African came about. That left Seth and Japeth and so we can but guess as to what they fathered, although it is accepted that Shem fathered the semitic nations.

As for the truth we have the Bible to find that, both Old and New Testaments.

God did not chose Jews as there were none until Abraham and his retinue were circumcised at the command of God. That's how the nation of Jews or Israelites were formed and formed by God to carry His word in a world of many gods.

Yeah I meant Noah, my bad.
Still not a credible answer.

That's not an answer to my question. Which specific religions before yours one had to follow to be saved? And what happened to the followers of those religions once your particular sect "came to be"?

Not an answer to my question, again. How were the Jews supposed to carry his word to, say, Japan? If you want people to be saved you have to give them the chance of being saved. Making a small tribe in the Near East the sole inheritor of God's words and will means entire continents died and went to hell for centuries for no other reason than the absence of jews in those lands.

How do you not notice how genocidally idiotic it would be for an all knowing and Just God to do that?

[conon394]

burnt one, meaning his colour was dark and that's where the African came about

Doubtful versions of of burnt one almost always mean somebody who spent their life working in the sun and ended up with a permanent dark skin but started out light. But simple fact is if white was the normal and black just one dude white people would have the more diverse genome contra the simple fact that Africans do.

We are all the descendants of Noah and his family

A genetic bottle neck that is nowhere visible in the actual genetic data. And also one that would have occur in every other at least terrestrial mammal and sundry other species that would not survive the flood.

As for the truth we have the Bible to find that, both Old and New Testaments.

Just what the LDS types about me say about the book of Mormon.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

...

Just what the LDS types about me say about the book of Mormon.

In older time they had the better arguments with multiple husbands!

[conon394]

God loves each of his children as if it was His only one, so big is His love...

So had the children and women and slaves and animals of Jericho killed out of love?

[conon394]

In older time they had the better arguments with multiple husbands!

I could roll with that - then at least I could point at somebody else who was supposed shovel the driveway, change the oil, deal with the dead bird the cat dragged in etc. And say see nope my list defiantly says it was my time to waste time playing on the computer or working out or reading classical history.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

A classical win win situation.

[basics]

DavidBN,

If you read the list of Old Testament saints you will see that from the very beginning, God accounted Abel righteous before Him, meaning he, Abel, was saved by the blood of the Lamb still to come. All these men and women believed the promise made in the garden by God and the Jewish nation had not yet been born until Abraham came along and even he wasn't a Jew. Indeed Noah wasn't a Jew either yet it was from his family that not only the peoples spread out across the world but the story of a coming Saviour too. It's not about religion, rather believing that Jesus Christ is that Saviour at the personal level regardless of whatever one is born into.

So, regarding the spreading of the word, that word was already there in whichever land a people settled. The problem was that the interpretation of the promise brought about many false gods and saviours and that is why Jesus commanded His disciples to get out there and confirm that the promise had been kept in His crucifixion and resurrection. These Christian Jews and Gentiles could confirm from their Scriptures that Jesus Christ was the One and only One on which their beliefs should have been.

I was born during the second World War in which as it turns out millions died and then came Cyprus, Korea, Kenya, The Falklands, the Irish troubles, Islamic terrorism all concerning my country and so it has become almost a way of life never to know peace across this world. The one thing I am pleased with is that God has kept my family safe through it all.

[conon394]

meaning he, Abel, was saved by the blood of the Lamb still to come

Err that only follow by back interpreting the NT into the OT.

Indeed Noah wasn't a Jew either yet it was from his family that not only the peoples spread out across the world but the story of a coming Saviour too

Err fantasy story that has no basis in reality

[Bande Nere]

@ Basics

You keep NOT answering my questions. Supposedly they were quite simple.

But no, you had to revert to semantics about when Jews "became" Jews and other drivel that has little to no context to what I enquired.

So before the birth of Jesus, only jews or whatever they called themselves at the time were going to Paradise.

Because let's not forget, it's not simply about "believing that Jesus Christ is your Saviour at the personal level", its actually about following whichever rules of conduct your sect say is rightfull. Otherwise you wouldn't be pounding so much on being reborn and having to believe/folow all these predicaments.

Some dude believing Jesus is the saviour but never being baptized or following other specific rules of your interpretation of the book, will not go to paradise.

Why would a just God let billions of people die in sin only bacause they were never able to meet these disciples of Christ? How is it possible that only one specific people should have to be made responsible for such a tragedy?

These Christian Jews and Gentiles could confirm from their Scriptures that Jesus Christ was the One and only One on which their beliefs should have been.

The difference between those days and today, is that if the Scriptures had been written today they would be sold next to LOTR in the fantasy section.

They "involved" your Country because your Country was "involved" in genocidal imperialism for 4 centuries. Except for the Japanese and soviets, all the murderous factions in WW2 believed in Jesus Christ as their savior. He does not seem to be a great teacher of peace and love.

You will not convince me by repeating bible class. Be clear and tell me exactly how ancient peoples across the world were supposed to know the "savior" is called Jesus Christ, or what rules one has to follow to be saved, if they could never met a follower of that faith.

[basics]

Err that only follow by back interpreting the NT into the OT.
Err fantasy story that has no basis in reality

conon394,

No, I am telling what is written in the Old Covenant confirmed by the New Covenant. Abel's sacrifice of a lamb was considered by God to be the right sacrifice that pointed to what God promised in the garden and so he was accounted to be righteous before God meaning that he, Abel, was saved. The Jews out of the Old Covenant believed that a Messias would come and still do to this day await that coming and yet the New Covenant writings were not known to them and for most are still not accepted by them to this day.

Concerning the flood, you say it is fantasy, yet all the indications of the layers of the landscape confirm that at some point water had played a part in their positions. Mount St Helens is a good but small indication of what happened when the whole world was covered in water just as happened at Creation as well. The sad thing is that because you are bound to sin and be against God you cannot see these things nor want to. No, you would rather believe what cannot be proved.

[Bande Nere]

you would rather believe what cannot be proved.

This must be the funniest involuntary joke you have ever said in your life, basics.