Science will not win over Religion

[conon394]

That's a nice theory you have there, too bad it's contradicted by reality. Even polytheistic cultures like the ancient greeks had issues with those things and unlike christianity in greek paganism EVERYTHING bad that happen was done by this god or that god as punishment. Crops failed because of the weather? You didn't sacrifice enough to Demeter. Heat-stroke? You did not pray to Apollo enough. Wolf attacked your flock? You accidentally killed one of Pan's girlfriends. Bandits on the road? You angered Athena.

You leaning a little to hard into that. The real point being it was transactional. The god were not all knowing nor all seeing but simply a potential very powerful avatar to be working a deal with. Thus the was no original sin you had to atone for or wait for a savior just figure out who you irritated. Of course half the time it was just formality and the Greeks really did not take their deities quite so seriously as say an evangelicals. Also of course of course you accepted other people had gods too . so whose showed up and decided care was a thing and not really in your power to sacrifice enough for. Thus say even in in the Iliad we know better to have Athena have your back that Ares... On one day but rape a supplicant at her alter and well you and your buds kinda screwed up.

[Muizer]

Before I elaborate, I'm an atheist I guess(or Lapsed Roman Catholic), yet I still mantain a good relation with my old priest and have gone on pilgrimages. I'm very much against proselitizing of all kinds, my "side" included. Even worse to force others to do things that might hurt them because someone arbitrarily chose what was best for them.

Religion is a human construct. Since humanity exists, we have tried to explain what we could not understand through cosntructs such as magic and religion, which in turn has been used to regulate and bring order to ever growing communities. Rules and forbidden acts/foods have been added from time to time, presumably to enforce better health in their community. How do you convince a indigent not to eat pork, by trying to expalin the dangers of eating a dirty undercooked meat, or by enforcing new religious rules by which pigs become unclean and haram to the eyes of their God of preference? in this case both Allah and Yahve(sorry for the spelling) as well as the first christians.

For millennia religion has been molded to the needs of the period. Even to believe that what we call the Bible today was exactly the same as the first one ever written, does not take in consideration that for many centuries almost only the priests could read them. And make a few changes when convenient. It wasn't God who chose which Vangelo was to be part of the offical texts and which had to disappear. It was man.

Most of what made us believe in magic/higher beings 4000 years ago has been proven to be effectively explainable though science, so the "rules" of what was proof of God's existence have shifted as well. 2 thousand years ago we would have called lightning proof of the supernatural, today its the Big Bang. Who know what it will be a hundred years from now.

Initially Christians would not dare eat pork, and a thousand years later pork was weaponized by christians to find and expel/exterminate jews and muslims. Religions evolve.

In fact, one of the reasons for this crisis of faith in many denominations might in fact be due to some of these denominations forcibly mantaining traditions and rules that were outdated a century ago. With all that follows when daily confonted by a society that has, on the contrary, kept evolving.


I have no issue with folks being religious, for at least they are not just parroting faith when convenient, like so many others do. My issue comes when they try forcing their rules on others who are not of the same denomination. Religion is supposed to be about strenghtening the unique relationship between you and God, "giving yourself to Him", not terrorising poor girls in front of clinics and force draconian laws they themselves rarely follow.

For what it's worth I almost agree with you, but your last paragraph I find somewhat problematic. I think the the core issue is that recognizing that religion in practice is a human construct subject to human driven change over time is almost by definition the view of a non-believer.

To a believer who has this view I would ask: how can you explain that behavior that at some point in the past was deemed saintly is now regarded as grievous sin? Does that mean what is 'orthodoxy' at any given time by definition reflects what god intended? In which case you may find yourself in hell alongside someone who spared a heretic's life or in heaven alongside someone who burnt one at the stake. Alternatively, is there only 'one truth', in which case our offspring may declare us sinners in hindsight like we might declare our ancestors sinners and basically every new generation is at the head of a long tradition of misinterpretations.

IMHO only a form of very literalist, fundamentalist orthodoxy, one without any evolving traditions would have neither of these issues.

[Bande Nere]

For what it's worth I almost agree with you, but your last paragraph I find somewhat problematic. I think the the core issue is that recognizing that religion in practice is a human construct subject to human driven change over time is almost by definition the view of a non-believer.

To a believer who has this view I would ask: how can you explain that behavior that at some point in the past was deemed saintly is now regarded as grievous sin? Does that mean what is 'orthodoxy' at any given time by definition reflects what god intended? In which case you may find yourself in hell alongside someone who spared a heretic's life or in heaven alongside someone who burnt one at the stake. Alternatively, is there only 'one truth', in which case our offspring may declare us sinners in hindsight like we might declare our ancestors sinners and basically every new generation is at the head of a long tradition of misinterpretations.

IMHO only a form of very literalist, fundamentalist orthodoxy, one without any evolving traditions would have neither of these issues.

Yes, quite so. A priest calling religion a "human construct" would have to start sending CVs immediately after saying it. That's why I wanted to state my "allegiance" first.
I realize this point of view is from a somewhat external perspective.

And I see your point.

However, before death all these ancestors would have probably repented their sins through confession, especially in the case of catholics(no idea how it works with other Churches). Wouldn't that "neutralize" their saintly/sinful actions? And being that God is Just, wouldn't he understand those actions, however wrong, were committed in service to Him?


Is such an orthodoxy even possible though? Iran has a fierce democratic resistance towards the regime, and even the Talibans had to fight the Northern Alliance. Al Quaeda and ISIS have developed splinter cell that dissociated from these TOs for either being too brutal, or not brutal enough.

Even in Israel you will find those who refuse their own orthodox fundamentalist communities to the point of being disowned and thrown out of their homes.

And now let's see if I can go to sleep for the first time in the last 48 hours(and that's the SOLE reason my writing is messed up right now). I shall return!

[basics]

DavidBN,

What is the Roman Catholic church among others if not a human construct? Most of the athiests on these threads were Roman Catholics so what happened? Going outside of what Scripture teaches is what happened.

[Lord Thesaurian]

DavidBN,

What is the Roman Catholic church among others if not a human construct? Most of the athiests on these threads were Roman Catholics so what happened? Going outside of what Scripture teaches is what happened.

For what it’s worth I’d probably be religious if I were raised papist. The ability to uncritically believe whatever the priest tells you because they hold the power to forgive your sin and authority over your eternal existence is at once tyrannical and sublime. It is those who seek to understand Scripture for themselves who face constant existential self reflection and doubt, at least, if my case is remotely representative.

[Bande Nere]

DavidBN,

What is the Roman Catholic church among others if not a human construct? Most of the athiests on these threads were Roman Catholics so what happened? Going outside of what Scripture teaches is what happened.

I don't think I'm a good example of RC. Except for baptism(IA when my grandparents abducted me from my parents to "save me from my sins")I wasn't raised as one, for starters. I just started going with the flow when I was 11 and got out around 16. Because Italy is uber RC. I'm not sure I was ever a believer.

But I would venture that in most mainly monoreligion countries many people "go with the flow" without actually believing. Or even when they think they are RCs, a lot of times they might have different views on dogma(for example, not believing in saints), which de facto makes them protestants rather than RCs. But they will still consider themselves RCs because it's the only religion they have a connection to.
I wouldn't know how that works in Countries like the US, were you can find 5 churches of different denominations in the same town. But I hear a lot of protestants simply change affiliation whenever their particular denomination's governing structures implements changes they don't appreciate(female ministers etc...).

And Basics, generally atheists will have taken a look at other religions as well and found the same flaws they found in the RCC. Namely the belief in the existence of the supernatural.

All religions are human constructs. To believe yours is the ONE that is not goes against Jesus teachings about being humble, does it not?

[conon394]

What is the Roman Catholic church among others if not a human construct?

So is the evangelical protestant church... It being the construct of Paul, Augustine, and Calvin amount others.

[Cyclops]

So is the evangelical protestant church... It being the construct of Paul, Augustine, and Calvin amount others.

The Protestant and Reformed faiths do have a great deal of good in them, and their criticisms of the Catholics (and by extension the Orthodox churches) are often valid, but in some ways by cutting themselves off from Rome they cut themselves off from tradition. The arguments that dispose of Episcopacy and conciliar Christianity also discard much of the ancient church and create something that while it is no doubt faithful, is also new, and not in any sense a return to true belief.

[conon394]

The Protestant and Reformed faiths do have a great deal of good in them

My intent was not to judge good or ill or compare or rank type of Christianity.

[Cyclops]

My intent was not to judge good or ill or compare or rank type of Christianity.

Oh I agree, indeed I was agreeing with you. I was just tempering my criticism at the back end of my post. I have several ancestors who evangelised for various forms of the faith, and did their best to do good AFAIK.

[basics]

DavidBN,

First off, to be a Christian one has to be born again of the Spirit of God, that is to believe that Jesus Christ died for your sin and that you can never be lost ever again. This is an act of God in totality. In effect God replaces your unbelief with a heart that now believes so what does that entail? Firstly the above and then that God made the world in six wonderful days. Secondly that man fell into sin through Adam and Eve meaning without Christ there is or was no way back to God's favour. Thirdly that Jesus came into this world supernaturally through the virgin Mary. Fourthly that He died on a cross and after three days was raised from the dead and now sits at the Father's right hand awaiting His time to return to judge the world and all creation. Fiftly that when he comes this world and all else ceases to exist being replaced by a new heaven and earth. Sixthly that all mankind will be separated, believers to heaven and unbelievers to hell. That is what is written.

The problem with man however is that he has deviated from the word of God especially within the churches and that is why the most dreaded words that the religious person will hear is, " Depart from Me for I never knew you."

That is why the written word, the Bible, is so important and why we must never add or subtract to and from it. So, we take in the words therein and by Faith we live by them or try to live by them. As sinners now saved we carry that burden every day knowing our sin is still ever before us so yes we will fall or stumble but keeping Jesus ever before us He lifts us back onto the narrow path that is our destiny. When one realizes how much we need Him each day becomes a little lighter to bear and so it humbles us to find out how much He cares for us.

[Bande Nere]

DavidBN,

First off, to be a Christian one has to be born again of the Spirit of God, that is to believe that Jesus Christ died for your sin and that 1you can never be lost ever again. This is an act of God in totality. In effect God replaces your unbelief with a heart that now believes so what does that entail? Firstly the above and then that God made the world in six wonderful days. Secondly that 2man fell into sin through Adam and Eve meaning without Christ there is or was no way back to God's favour. Thirdly that Jesus came into this world supernaturally through the virgin Mary. Fourthly that He died on a cross and after three days was raised from the dead and now sits at the Father's right hand awaiting His time to return to judge the world and all creation. Fiftly that when he comes this world and all else ceases to exist being replaced by a new heaven and earth. Sixthly that 3all mankind will be separated, believers to heaven and unbelievers to hell. That is what is written.

The problem with man however is that he has deviated from the word of God especially within the churches and that is why the most dreaded words that the religious person will hear is, " 4Depart from Me for I never knew you."

That is why the written word, the Bible, is so important and 5why we must never add or subtract to and from it. So, we take in the words therein and by Faith we live by them or try to live by them. As sinners now saved we carry that burden every day knowing our sin is still ever before us so yes we will fall or stumble but keeping Jesus ever before us He lifts us back onto the narrow path that is our destiny. When one realizes how much we need Him each day becomes a little lighter to bear and so it humbles us to find out how much He cares for us.

Wow. So many things I'd want to say.

1- So if I'm reborn and then stop believing God's still going to save me?

2- See, it's stuff like this that makes it so hard to take it seriously. Billions upon billions condemned to hell for eternity only because of a hornungry couple. In prehistory.

3- So everyone who died before BACs were a thing are going to Hell? You are basically asking me if I'd rather spend the rest of eternity with Marilyn Monroe or with George Bush. I have sad news for you.

4- I would freak out too if I started hearing voices in my head. Not only that specific phrase.

5- Its a bit too late for that. That has already happened quite a few times, I'd gather.


And this is why science has nothing to do with religion.

EDIT: Can you tell me your definition of science, Basics?

[conon394]

That is why the written word, the Bible, is so important and why we must never add or subtract to and from it

You got a problem there in that people have doing that for a while now, and translators and also massaged the meaning they want want thus say the virgin birth...

Secondly that man fell into sin through Adam and Eve meaning without Christ there is or was no way back to God's favour

I don't think a fair reading of the OT supports you Augustine reading of original sin. But even if it does it not appealing to consider a god who is willing to punish creation for the mistakes of two people who I forget who did or did not have free will in your view?

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

You are basically asking me if I'd rather spend the rest of eternity with Marilyn Monroe or with George Bush. I have sad news for you.

I would prefer Dio or Lemmy instead of George Walker too.^^

But even if it does it not appealing to consider a god who is willing to punish creation for the mistakes of two people who I forget who did or did not have free will in your view?

I don't find Basics understanding of a merciless, revengeful god appealing too.

Frea on the other hand...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[basics]

Morticia Iunia Bruti,

Basics believes that God is merciful inasmuch as He provided His own Son so that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. I think we can all agree that someday we will die and so it is at that very point when we will discover what happens next. The thing is that everyone has been well warned that death is just around the corner so knowing where one goes in advance is better than shutting your mind off to it.

[razerbelkin]

@Morticia: A short german clip for you.

[AqD]

Basics believes that God is merciful inasmuch as He provided His own Son

You kept emphasizing his own son - why does it matter? Are we not children of God? Are we not born equal?

so that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Why do you assume we want everlasting life with him?

Yes I know some people dream of that, but how can you even encourage such thought morally, that people would want something solely provided by other(s) than to build it themselves? Is it not very pathetic, lazy and parasitic?

[razerbelkin]

You kept emphasizing his own Son - why does it matter? Are we not children of God? Are we not born equal?

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold')^[1] defines God as being one god existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons:^[2][3] God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons sharing one homoousion (essence).^[4] In this context, the three persons define who God is, while the one essence defines what God is.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Calling Jesus Christ "God" is absolutely correct as he created you along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Calling Jesus your "creator" is also correct. You need to understand, that we call him "The Son of God", but He is so much more, He was there from the beginning. God did´nt create Jesus, Jesus is and was always there as God. Jesus was not born like we are, he createdf himself as Son of God.(he later came down to earth and and was indeed born as a human). We like to view ourselves as "children" of God, so as daughters and sons of God Himself, so we must be somehow "equal" to the Son. You see, that basically means comparing oneself to God himself, and I am far from doing so. Martyrs, holy people, people that sacrrificed for the faith, living a christian life isnt easy, these are people I could consider "children of God". However I would´nt call myself a child of God. Jesus is the standard, the only free of sin. Humility is the only thing we can realistically offer. We are sinners and most of us are weak and sin again. We should keep than in mind when thinking about a perfect beeing, the only there is. Overcoming one´s ego and pride is very important in my eyes. Identify your sins, like lying about someone, seriously feel sorry about it, and don´t do it again. Believe in the Son, that God came down to earth as a human to die for your sins, so you can throw your sins at that cross, and be forgiven and allowed to enter the perfect kingdom imagineable where Jesus is King sitting to the Right of the Father. The Holdy Virgin is the mother of God, and He loves Her as such. Think how much your mother means to you, and then you can try to imagine what she means to God. We are adviced to venerate Her immaculate heart and get on our knees when we meet Her. We are adviced to make use of the "Ave Maria", I do so for bad cases of sin. We have an all merciful God already, and if that wasnt enough, we sinners have in the Holy Virgin such an influencial advocate to turn to with our pleas aswell, we cannot be grateful enough for Her.




Why do you assume we want everlasting life with Him?


A perfect beeing designed a perfect world for you to be loved as if you were the only human there is. Imagine the all-perfect, all-knowing, absolutely just and pure beeing, the one beeing whose opinion matters says something like "You are a good human". That would make you extremely happy and proud, and beeing even loved by a perfect beeing like that must be the best there is.
Wehn meeting your creator (Jesus) for the first time, the perfect all-powerful beeing, that made you, for a purpose, He sees every deed you ever did, good and bad. And sins are very easy to do, a small lie or an illegal download, cheating... and you will be held accountable for your deeds. Most of us are full of sin, and need to enter the purgatory,before beeing pure enough to enter Heaven. But Jesus is a very forgiving God, so what comes after death is individual and I am sure not everyone needs to go to the purgatory first, martyrs or good priests for example.
Its a good advice to try here on earth to become as christian as possible, as its way better to influence one´s soul for the positive here than it is once we are dead. But Heaven is well worth it. Every question you have will be answered, "how did the dinosaurs look like", "why is the universe so big", ... just the knowledge and things to see there, imagine how beautiful earth can be, and compare that to a perfect world. God will never seize to amaze you and fascinate you for eternity. And you will love Him. Even if life is often unfair to us and many bad things happen (Satan is the prince of this world, we must not forget that), we must willingly bear our personal crosses, go down that road, and hope for the best. Imagine what God went through, leaving the perfect place to be spat at, tortured and killed. But he diecided this path was worth it. Whatever He intends for us in Heaven, He could have had it easier. However this seems the only way to achieve what He intends to achieve. And He will succeed and it will be worth it, for Him and for us.

We shall forgive sins against us easily, and even pray for the sinners. Don´t try to be a judge. It will all make sense one day. Focus on the good things in your life, be thankful for them and value them, dont try to become rich or have as many women as possible, maybe you should be regretful about things you were proud of... I dont know, but everyone reading this knows his personal sins.
I don´t understand everything myself, but this I know:

5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…John 14:6

[conon394]

Until you redact the Jehico story that statement is false. Oh and original sin as well.

[basics]

AqD,

In answer to your question, no, we are not equal to God as God in Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Sovereign over all else. God created us for His own good pleasure meaning that we all are part of a story in which He is the Central Character where each of His Three Persons plays the Central role.

Why would we want to live with Him is a good question because what He has ordained the opposite is not something that any sane person would want for themselves. The fall of Adam and Eve brought about a curse that condemns all creation and it is about that curse that God is seen to be the only Way out of it so from Genesis to The Book of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ we see God saving people from a fate worse than death.

Finally, man thinks that he can live and build without a God so what's the alternative? To believe we got here by chance and despite chance have no future as death means nothing else. We are surrounded by death from birth onwards and yet still man refuses the offer that God makes through Jesus Christ, why? The answer is simple, sin.