Science will not win over Religion

[AqD]

Murder can't be bad since victims would go to happy afterlife.

If they worry about relatives and friends, just get everyone murdered together.

[basics]

Murder can't be bad since victims would go to happy afterlife.

If they worry about relatives and friends, just get everyone murdered together.

AqD,

The only people who will be happy after death here on this planet are those born again of the Spirit of God. Families will be split up where that is the case regardless of how they died.

[AqD]

AqD,

The only people who will be happy after death here on this planet are those born again of the Spirit of God. Families will be split up where that is the case regardless of how they died.

So you're saying babies killed at birth would be denied all oppurtunitiee and condemned to eternal darkess? What's the justice in that? That's cruel.

Either way they can just make new friends. Happiness is a choice.

[basics]

AqD,

All I can say about that is from Jesus Himself and that was that we all are conceived in sin so those little beings were sinners the moment fertilisation took place in their mother's womb and so come under what the law demands of sin.

[conon394]

All I can say about that is from Jesus Himself and that was that we all are conceived in sin so those little beings were sinners the moment fertilisation took place in their mother's womb and so come under what the law demands of sin

And yet lot of other Christians read the same stuff and do not agree with your conclusion. I have to say I find Pelagiuss far more convincing rather Augustine's insertion of Manichaeianism into christian belief.

[basics]

And yet lot of other Christians read the same stuff and do not agree with your conclusion. I have to say I find Pelagiuss far more convincing rather Augustine's insertion of Manichaeianism into christian belief.

conon394,

Well I don't see a book in the Bible written by either of these men but I do see the words of Jesus penned by His disciples. If anyone reads the same stuff how can they possibly come to another conclusion? David wrote of being conceived in sin and Paul wrote that all, everyone, falls short of the glory of God, why? Because the curse of sin is inherent.

[conon394]

but I do see the words of Jesus penned by His disciples

That's the trick now is it not you see the words not penned by Jesus, nor realistically his direct disciples either but edited collections (from his disciples) that evolved over the first and second centuries. But than again you like willfully misconstruing the OT to find Jesus so whatever.

[Cyclops]

If I understand this theology then a clone, one gestated outside a human body in an "artificial womb", would be free of sin. The curse is on the seed, but a clone made without semen and not having a mother or father would not seem to have any contagion of sin.

There are various garbled attempts to explain the insidious and manipulative notion of original sin in terms of the current theory of reproduction, they usually end up as a dog's breakfast once human understanding progresses past that particular set of antiquated notions. In the last few decades the Popes (they are all cutting edge geneticists aren't they?) have been rambling on about how clones have new souls, so God must want them to exist.

Maybe there's a cut and paste bit of preaching that can be posted instead of a reasoned response?

[Lord Thesaurian]

The Greco-Roman and Augustinian interpretations of sin and the afterlife were later additions. It is inevitable that a human clone would commit sin in their lifetime as humans are wont to do.

[Akar]

Is it a sin to sodomize my clone?

[antaeus]

Is it a sin to sodomize my clone?

Is the act itself sinful, rather than the identity of the sinee?

Of course you're already damned before you were born, so the act itself is probably part of a bigger picture of your pathway to redemption.

[basics]

Cyclops,

Well, since the curse was placed on all creation a clone would be under that jurisdiction. There's no way round it boys unless the blood of Jesus Christ saved you and you are born again of the Holy Spirit it is just as Jesus said, " you are swimming against the current." and so you cannot win.

[Bande Nere]

Lord Thesaurian,

Where the gentleman's statement is wrong is him inferring that God intervenes in history when in fact it is God who is making history even as I write. Every word any person who ever lived and is now living is speaking the words God ordained him or her to say all authored by God before the worlds were made. The world's history has panned out exactly as God wishes or wills it to be, why? Because He is God and He is Soveregn and it is all for His good pleasure. God has always been at the centre of our history and will always be. Oh man may well think that not to be the case but what is man compared to his Creator?

I thought free will was a thing in the Roman Catholic Church. But apparently it is not(your words).

So let me get this straight.

Rape, murder, torture have been decided arbitrarily by a superior being in advance. Because he is a Just God.

Those who commit them(by God's will) are subsequently punished by God for sinning.

God will forgive them for following God's will for which they were punished by God by repenting to God. For an action that God made them do.



Sounds legit.


PS: if God ordained me to use the words I'm currently saying under my breath, he has an interesting vocabulary.

[Muizer]

I thought free will was a thing in the Roman Catholic Church. But apparently it is not(your words).

So let me get this straight.

Rape, murder, torture have been decided arbitrarily by a superior being in advance. Because he is a Just God.

Those who commit them(by God's will) are subsequently punished by God for sinning.

God will forgive them for following God's will for which they were punished by God by repenting to God. For an action that God made them do.



Sounds legit.


PS: if God ordained me to use the words I'm currently saying under my breath, he has an interesting vocabulary.

That's predestination, a Protestant thing: if you act righteously and god-fearing, that's a sign you're destined for heaven. Otherwise you must be doomed to hell. It's a clever trick which at once denies the existence of free will and actually motivates people to do the 'the right thing' as if they have free will.

[conon394]

Well, since the curse was placed on all creation

Why exactly for the act of just 3 individuals? Essentially that confirms a completely irrational god.

[Bande Nere]

That's predestination, a Protestant thing: if you act righteously and god-fearing, that's a sign you're destined for heaven. Otherwise you must be doomed to hell. It's a clever trick which at once denies the existence of free will and actually motivates people to do the 'the right thing' as if they have free will.

Hadn't realised the number of times "born again" is mentioned, TY.

If we don't have free will at all, as even our words have been meticolously chosen by God himself before we were even born(too much reliance on multitasking, this guy), how can we act righteously if I'm predestined by God to murder(or be murdererd). That choice has been taken away from me. Ergo why should I be punished if it was God's will and not mine? God is Just

Science and religion are 2 different things. One tries to find explanations through trial and error, the other is based on blind faith in allpoweful supernatural entities(who can't be bothered to stop a literal holocaust but hold on, those two girls are kissing, BURN THEM)

And it always surprises me how sure one can be that the specific religion in which he is born into is "the right one", even more when it's from sectarian groups.

THe World is full of religions and sects, yet God has decided that only his small number of people got it right.
Again, every action humans take is decided by God yet he choose to make the VAST MAJORITY of its flock to firmly believe in lies.

Basically this God of his is Loki.

[Muizer]

If we don't have free will at all, as even our words have been meticolously chosen by God himself before we were even born(too much reliance on multitasking, this guy), how can we act righteously if I'm predestined by God to murder(or be murdererd). That choice has been taken away from me. Ergo why should I be punished if it was God's will and not mine? God is Just

I suppose the way to think about it is that your preordained fate is revealed in your actions and in the response of the world to them, including judgement by your peers in this life and by God in the next. Mind you, I don't subscribe to this myself, but I feel confident to say that this framework of predestination is not at odds with things like guilt and judgement, as long as you apply it consistently.

Science and religion are 2 different things. One tries to find explanations through trial and error, the other is based on blind faith in allpoweful supernatural entities(who can't be bothered to stop a literal holocaust but hold on, those two girls are kissing, BURN THEM)

Monotheistic religion rests on divine revelations and all that matters is if you believe them or not. In that sense I have more sympathy for fundamentalist positions. Religion is to a great extent a take it or leave it proposition, but from some of the discussion here one could think it's a commodity you can shop around for until you find the best deal, a dinner at an a la carte restaurant, something subject to negotiation at least. I don't see how it can be any of those things. Even where room for interpretation is left, 'convenience' seems an invalid arbitrator. I mean, tempting, yes, but not reasonable.

[Bande Nere]

I suppose the way to think about it is that your preordained fate is revealed in your actions and in the response of the world to them, including judgement by your peers in this life and by God in the next. Mind you, I don't subscribe to this myself, but I feel confident to say that this framework of predestination is not at odds with things like guilt and judgement, as long as you apply it consistently.



Monotheistic religion rests on divine revelations and all that matters is if you believe them or not. In that sense I have more sympathy for fundamentalist positions. Religion is to a great extent a take it or leave it proposition, but from some of the discussion here one could think it's a commodity you can shop around for until you find the best deal, a dinner at an a la carte restaurant, something subject to negotiation at least. It's none of those things. Even where room for interpretation is left, 'convenience' is not a valid arbitrator.

Before I elaborate, I'm an atheist I guess(or Lapsed Roman Catholic), yet I still mantain a good relation with my old priest and have gone on pilgrimages. I'm very much against proselitizing of all kinds, my "side" included. Even worse to force others to do things that might hurt them because someone arbitrarily chose what was best for them.

Religion is a human construct. Since humanity exists, we have tried to explain what we could not understand through cosntructs such as magic and religion, which in turn has been used to regulate and bring order to ever growing communities. Rules and forbidden acts/foods have been added from time to time, presumably to enforce better health in their community. How do you convince a indigent not to eat pork, by trying to expalin the dangers of eating a dirty undercooked meat, or by enforcing new religious rules by which pigs become unclean and haram to the eyes of their God of preference? in this case both Allah and Yahve(sorry for the spelling) as well as the first christians.

For millennia religion has been molded to the needs of the period. Even to believe that what we call the Bible today was exactly the same as the first one ever written, does not take in consideration that for many centuries almost only the priests could read them. And make a few changes when convenient. It wasn't God who chose which Vangelo was to be part of the offical texts and which had to disappear. It was man.

Most of what made us believe in magic/higher beings 4000 years ago has been proven to be effectively explainable though science, so the "rules" of what was proof of God's existence have shifted as well. 2 thousand years ago we would have called lightning proof of the supernatural, today its the Big Bang. Who know what it will be a hundred years from now.

Initially Christians would not dare eat pork, and a thousand years later pork was weaponized by christians to find and expel/exterminate jews and muslims. Religions evolve.

In fact, one of the reasons for this crisis of faith in many denominations might in fact be due to some of these denominations forcibly mantaining traditions and rules that were outdated a century ago. With all that follows when daily confonted by a society that has, on the contrary, kept evolving.


I have no issue with folks being religious, for at least they are not just parroting faith when convenient, like so many others do. My issue comes when they try forcing their rules on others who are not of the same denomination. Religion is supposed to be about strenghtening the unique relationship between you and God, "giving yourself to Him", not terrorising poor girls in front of clinics and force draconian laws they themselves rarely follow.

[conon394]

but from some of the discussion here one could think it's a commodity you can shop around for until you find the best deal, a dinner at an a la carte restaurant, something subject to negotiation at least. I don't see how it can be any of those things. Even where room for interpretation is left, 'convenience' seems an invalid arbitrator. I mean, tempting, yes, but not reasonable.

Actually works out quite really for non OT based religions. If don't assume your god is all power and knows everything but rather simply a powerful being you can placates, deal with or negotiate with maybe successfully or not... you really can shop around. You don't have to worry about why bad things happen to good people. Maybe your god just did not give crap on that day, or screwed up or some other god was more invested in the situation etc.

[Sir Adrian]

That's a nice theory you have there, too bad it's contradicted by reality. Even polytheistic cultures like the ancient greeks had issues with those things and unlike christianity in greek paganism EVERYTHING bad that happen was done by this god or that god as punishment. Crops failed because of the weather? You didn't sacrifice enough to Demeter. Heat-stroke? You did not pray to Apollo enough. Wolf attacked your flock? You accidentally killed one of Pan's girlfriends. Bandits on the road? You angered Athena.