Science will not win over Religion

[Muizer]

"I died for you to save you from me, but you have to believe in a hyperspecific way and if you get it wrong I will burn you forever. Also the source documents are unavailable to the majority. Sincerely, you loving God"

Something's wrong with this version of the benevolent creator.

What, because it is 'unfair'? That's a non-issue. The only thing that matters is whether it is true and those things have nothing to do with each other. Anyone who believes otherwise is the victim of a logical fallacy, where on the one hand God exists and created man, but on the other hand, man can demand of god to conform to their wishes.

[conon394]

since my conversion has proved to be correct

A statement any number of people of firm faith can say that as well and still not share your faith.

[Lord Thesaurian]

What, because it is 'unfair'? That's a non-issue. The only thing that matters is whether it is true and those things have nothing to do with each other. Anyone who believes otherwise is the victim of a logical fallacy, where on the one hand God exists and created man, but on the other hand, man can demand of god to conform to their wishes.

+rep

[antaeus]

What, because it is 'unfair'? That's a non-issue. The only thing that matters is whether it is true and those things have nothing to do with each other. Anyone who believes otherwise is the victim of a logical fallacy, where on the one hand God exists and created man, but on the other hand, man can demand of god to conform to their wishes.

This isn't a 'fairness' thing, but rather speaks to the plausibility of existence of God (or Gods). God knowingly created (or created the possibility of) rational humans, and then in turn demands them to behave irrationally (or not in their created nature) in their service.

[AqD]

antaeus,

Well, just supposing there was no God the outlook would be very dire indeed because the moment one died, nothing, no recompense for any injustice at all and that would apply to everyone. Now that's what I'd call unfair. On the other hand, there being a God Whose justice is fair, He gives man an out when no man deserves one.

Even if their religion is lying to them?

What justice could you give to ants enslaved by other ants? pigs raised in a farm to be consumed by humans? or soldiers fought in meaningless wars but believed they were doing right? How about humans born braindead? What could God offer them? Minds and intelligence they never had?

You're just trying to make up meanings when there is none, because humans have the inherent need to feel they're special. They are special - as special as ants, maggots and trees. 7 billion dumb creatures believing each of them is unique, special and blessed!

[Roma_Victrix]

Science will never be able to explain things like why and how matter was created in the first place, so there will always be a great amount of mystery to the universe. However, we've learned quite a bit about how the physical world and the universe around it operates since the Iron Age, when most presently popular holy scriptures were first penned down. There are some mythological tales and apocryphal events in the Hebrew Bible, New Testament, Quran, Vedas, Sutras, and other scriptures that don't make much sense when taking modern geology and archaeology into account. Religion is a matter of spirituality, morality, metaphysics and abstract mysticism, though, not a systematic evidence-based inquiry of testing hypotheses to formulate theories, which is the definition of science.

[basics]

AqD,

Do you want to die? Because if it is down to science alone you are going to die without the possibility of life beyond death whereas through Jesus Christ one is offered new life not just on this planet but on the one to come. Science offers nothing but God does.

[Muizer]

AqD,

Do you want to die? Because if it is down to science alone you are going to die without the possibility of life beyond death whereas through Jesus Christ one is offered new life not just on this planet but on the one to come. Science offers nothing but God does.

καὶ σύ, τέκνον? How is it that in deciding what to believe about an afterlife, the convenience of the belief to man in life should be a consideration? How can deciding what you think is true be about what you would like to be true? Isn't that by definition a form of self delusion?

[AqD]

AqD,

Do you want to die? Because if it is down to science alone you are going to die without the possibility of life beyond death whereas through Jesus Christ one is offered new life not just on this planet but on the one to come. Science offers nothing but God does.

I didn't ask for life and don't see any reason why it's worth anything. If life is so good itself, why would people ask anything from God?


It's just like a pile of feces someone throws onto your face, and you want people to cheer for that?

[Cyclops]

What, because it is 'unfair'? That's a non-issue.

I feel its an issue if God lies about it. If it is true God is a Good God, then why is he also bad? He's angry, he's jealous, he kills families, plagues kingdoms, drowns the whole world because of one specie's behaviour.

In the Bible God is quoted saying He is a just God (Isiah 45:21) but I feel thats a lie. I constantly bring up the book of Job because in its narrative God is a petulant torturing scumbag who roars at Job ("WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I LAID THE EARTH'S FOUNDATION?" duh he wasn't born, and God knows it, he's rhetorically ranting at someone he hurt like a domestic abuser with a guilty conscience). Job hasn't even questioned the incredible injustice of his children being murdered at the whim of Satan, just asked what he has done and why he is suffering. No questions allowed, but he's a loving God of course. Jealous though (apparently that's a Good Thing for God but not for us, we are not allowed to be envious, which is really a partial synonym for jealously).

God tells a number of lies in the KJV (on that day you will die? Nope, tuyrns out God lied and the snake told the truth. You know, the talking snake). Those claiming the Bible is somehow "true" in a categorical sense ("the unerring Word of God, containing all wisdom" rather than a vague Anglican vicar "true-ish" sense) needs to explain the evident lies and mistakes.

The only thing that matters is whether it is true and those things have nothing to do with each other. Anyone who believes otherwise is the victim of a logical fallacy, where on the one hand God exists and created man, but on the other hand, man can demand of god to conform to their wishes.

It matters if its true, because if its true then killing Job's children on a dare from Satan is Just.

Otherwise I agree completely. Anyone claiming to know God exactly and know His wishes is as stupid as an atheist who denies any God. Human intelligence is a weak and puny thing, any God is at best only partly knowable to us. Something as limited as a collation of scrolls from different times and cultures with many layers of interference cannot contain God, or God's plan anymore than a teacup can hold the sea.

This positions makes apparent lies in the Bible acceptable, as the Bible is (in my view) a mere human approach to the divine full of human truth and human error.

Those claiming the Bible as "TRUE" don't seem to address these issues though, all I get back is waffle and ToS-breaching preaching.

[antaeus]

Otherwise I agree completely. Anyone claiming to know God exactly and know His wishes is as stupid as an atheist who denies any God. Human intelligence is a weak and puny thing, any God is at best only partly knowable to us. Something as limited as a collation of scrolls from different times and cultures with many layers of interference cannot contain God, or God's plan anymore than a teacup can hold the sea.

This positions makes apparent lies in the Bible acceptable, as the Bible is (in my view) a mere human approach to the divine full of human truth and human error.

Is this not an extension of the whole:

Child: "why can't I do this thing I want to do?"
Parent: "Because you can't"
Child: "But whyyyyyyyy... here is this logical rationale why it's Ok that I do this thing..."
Parent: "Because I say so. End of discussion"

...paradigm... but on a societal level...

I.e. not that God's motives are unknowable, but that they are unjustifiable based on any reasonable assessment, so questioning them must be shut down in a gaslighting way that prevents further questioning...

[basics]

Cyclops,

If you are a parent you'll know what it's like to deal with a child when he or she is disobedient or argumentative. You make the rules and they have to abide by them or what? There are consequences, why? Obviously to let them know that you are in charge. God has let the world know that He is in charge and that there are consequences for our behaviour so what's the problem?

[conon394]

Cyclops,

If you are a parent you'll know what it's like to deal with a child when he or she is disobedient or argumentative. You make the rules and they have to abide by them or what? There are consequences, why? Obviously to let them know that you are in charge. God has let the world know that He is in charge and that there are consequences for our behaviour so what's the problem?

Sure you might punish a child for disobedient, but I for example would not then not also punish his siblings, their pets, their friends, random other people... Your loves himself mass rage punishment with blood attainder as well. Altogether not a nice or fair deity.

[antaeus]

I don't know if I would discipline my children to let them know who is in charge... That is nothing but coercion for it's own sake. Which I on second thoughts... I guess it is an apt metaphor after all.

[Lord Thesaurian]

God is established as a parental figure immediately in the Biblical story. He made Adam and Eve in his likeness as though they were his children. Recall he asks Adam and Eve where they are and what they did though he obviously already knew. “If you eat this, you will die.” They ate it. They died. The story could have ended there and it would be just. The rest of human history and everyone who ever lived, from a Biblical perspective, is all an undeserved bonus given by the grace of God. In Biblical theology, it is vanity to presume a person is entitled to exist, let alone to attempt negotiation with the character of God.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It’s like when a father busts his kid with his hand in the cookie jar but nevertheless quizzes him or her about what they did and why they disobeyed before passing judgement/punishment. As a story that’s meant to be intuitive it conveys justice - crime and punishment. Fairness is another question entirely and not very useful imo, since the power imbalance between an all powerful, all knowing God and his creation is infinite.

[Cyclops]

Sure you might punish a child for disobedient, but I for example would not then not also punish his siblings, their pets, their friends, random other people... Your loves himself mass rage punishment with blood attainder as well. Altogether not a nice or fair deity.

Indeed much of what is stuffed into Gods mouth in the Bible reads more like Stalinist mind control or weird PUA head ****ery. "You like women? Well God says you're doing it wrong.Sorry sweetie he loves you but you're going to Hell. Of course for a small fee and some obedience..."

Many believers have a connection to the creator that shows them love. I believe they are sincere. The disconnection comes when they hold some books to accurately represent God, and try to reconcile their honest belief with an absolute dogs breakfast of sources. Some of those sources aren't even about the same God, we have the Babylonian and Sumerian originals of some hymns and even narratives.

Peopke find faith through the bible, once again a sincere and beautiful path to faith. That doesn't make Bible God, don't mistake the road for the destination.

The creepy God presented by some ideologues defies belief. Much of what is foisted on this strawgod isn't even in the Bible, it's a concoction, and much of what is in there seems a work of hate and control, not love and faith: some is just confusion and error.

His alleged attributes revolt a liberal humanist mind. Non consensual impregnation? Watching children ? Worldwide death and destruction? Literal genocide? That fake version of God, if he were a real person, would face universal disgust and multiple consecutive life sentences in all our countries.

[basics]

And yet it is written that, " God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but hath everlasting life." Surely it cannot be this fallen place that God " so loved ?" If so it must be the world He created before the fall that man should have inherited. That is why Jesus Christ became a man so that He alone could pay the price for man's sin when man cannot do that of his own accord. Jesus Christ is that Mercy that overcomes the incapability of man himself in avoiding the curse of the Law. Does that make God all the innapropriate things that certain call Him? Of course it doesn't but it does show anyone the amount of falling they are doing each day of their lives and quite capable of denying that. Therefore it is destined that this world and its surrounds will be ended to be replaced by a much better place alongside of which is hell. The Gospel is the key to which place anyone ends up.

[TheDarkKnight]

And yet it is written that, " God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but hath everlasting life."

How nice of God to murder his son so that he could forgive the sins he supposedly chose to allow us to commit.

What a normal and totally rational thing for a supposedly all loving god to do.

~~~~~~

As for science versus religion, it will of course never win. Science would have to metaphorically move mountains, and there is no way to prove the nonexistence of the supposedly loving god. All religious people have to say is "It does not matter, I have faith" and "Look at God's creation" and never involve a single ounce of effort more than what it takes to utter those two banal and archaic sentences.

[Cyclops]

How nice of God to murder his son so that he could forgive the sins he supposedly chose to allow us to commit.

What a normal and totally rational thing for a supposedly all loving god to do.

The vicious acts attributed to the creator in parts of the OT led some serious and faithful Christians to conclude the God of the NT was the Good Guy come to rescue us from the God of the OT who actually the Other Guy.

~~~~~~

As for science versus religion, it will of course never win. Science would have to metaphorically move mountains, and there is no way to prove the nonexistence of the supposedly loving god. All religious people have to say is "It does not matter, I have faith" and "Look at God's creation" and never involve a single ounce of effort more than what it takes to utter those two banal and archaic sentences.

I think those are actually fair arguments. I am too stupid to grasp reality in any meaningful way beyond small animal impressions, but to my limited intelligence an origin might as well be termed the Creator. I do feel gratitude for the good things I my life, and not all of it was from my family or any person I can identify. If creation was created, I'm grateful to the Creator.

People do feel faith, its a real and motivating feeling. Whether you believe the Pentecost was a mass hallucination or a return of the king, the people in that upstairs room wherever and whenever it was(there's a coupla versions of events) went out convinced it happened and they convinced a lot of people (several billion and counting). Faith is real and powerful. Maybe its a real way of knowing.

The problem comes with people pasting their local and temporal ethics, other stuff they "feel" onto their feelings of faith. God commands mass circumcision wut? Why? Sounds like an ingroup activity that needed more and more serious buttressing as time went on. "Coz grandad did" wasn't enough, so it mutated into "because God will drown a mf if we don't".

Faith is a kind of (or an approach to) knowledge just as science is but there's little or no overlap AFAICS, they need to stay in their lanes, it gets embarrassing when the two try to mix. Pretty hard to get statistically significant data on a divine sample size of one, and pretending atomic weights are kabbalistically tucked into erotic poetry is cringe.

[basics]

TheDarkKnight,

Just as Batman came about as a result of the author killing his parents. The only difference in the two stories is that God's Son is alive and well, still quite capable of saving people from their sin. Of course if you're a Darwin man you have no future but with my God I have as do you yet with different outcomes.