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Thread: Science will not win over Religion

  1. #241
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    So, you sin yet don't accept that one of these is a copy of the original sin that Adam and Eve did in the garden, that got them flung out?

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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    So, you sin yet don't accept that one of these is a copy of the original sin that Adam and Eve did in the garden, that got them flung out?
    My failings are my own.

    Again to reiterate I don't believe the bible creation story so I don't believe there were and Even Adam to commit an origin sin.

    But since you do in the context of the OT I think there is nothing to support original and fall of man as you understand it. Thus I think your sins are your own.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    Well, God had Moses write it all down so that the Israelites would know where they came from so, did Moses just make it all up? Of course your sins are your own and it's on them that you are judged a sinner in need of a Saviour.

  4. #244
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    God had Moses write it all down so that the Israelites would know where they came from so, did Moses just make it all up?
    There is nothing to indicate the myth of Moses being author of of the first books is true. Its late tradition. Really probably developed out a pissing match with Greeks the high literary society sometime circa the last century BC and forward because they (the Greeks) cited the authors of their works histories and myths.

    Of course your sins are your own and it's on them that you are judged a sinner in need of a Saviour.
    So you admit I was not born fallen nor the world but i committed my own sins?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #245
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    Did Moses Write the Torah?

    The Bible says explicitly Moses wrote the Torah. Exodus 24:4 states, “Moses wrote all the words of the LORD”; and Deuteronomy says, “Moses finished writing the words of this law [Torah] in a book until they were complete” (31:24, NASB). Why, then, would anyone question whether Moses wrote the Torah?

    Yet the majority of mainline Bible scholars, including many evangelical ones, either deny Moses’ authorship or have difficulty accepting it. For decades, critical scholars have taught that Moses and his audience were illiterate and that no Hebrew language existed at his time. They claim Hebrew developed from Phoenician and only emerged as a distinct language in the 10th century BC, while Moses lived earlier, in the 13th century BC; and the laws of the Torah were composed much later, in the Persian period (5th century BC).1

    Though we cannot address all these erroneous views, we can deal with whether Moses could write and if Hebrew existed in his day. This issue is critical because the Bible rests on the foundation of a Mosaic Torah (Josh. 22:5; 23:6; 1 Ki. 2:3; Neh. 8:1; Dan. 9:13; Mal. 4:4). Even the Lord Jesus said, “Did not Moses give you the law?” (Jn. 7:19). In fact, Jesus declared that belief in Him depended on believing Moses: “If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me” (5:46).

    The archaeological record and the Scriptures show Moses could write.

    Egyptologist Filip Taterka said one of Egypt’s first rulers, Aha, mastered writing and was said to have written medical treaties. Furthermore, there is mention of a letter personally written by Pharaoh Isesi at the end of the third millennium BC. According to Taterka, when the pyramids were built, a special institution existed to teach royal children reading and writing2; and from the time of Queen Hatshepsut (15th century BC), royal educators were well known. It is possible Hatshepsut was Moses’ Egyptian “mother”; and because Moses was raised in the royal court as a nobleman, he was taught to read and write. Acts 7:22 states, “Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and deeds.”

    As an educated nobleman, Moses would have learned Egyptian; and as an Israelite, he also would have known whatever form of Hebrew existed at the time. The Torah we have was written in Hebrew; and though some of the Hebrew terms demonstrate the author’s familiarity with Egyptian, nothing indicates the text was translated from Egyptian. But what type of Hebrew existed this early?

    Exploration in the Sinai desert at the turn of the last century uncovered an unknown graffiti in caves from the Middle Kingdom–New Kingdom periods (the times of Joseph and Moses). The writing borrowed characters from Egyptian hieroglyphics. But unlike Egyptian, it contained an alphabet of 22 letters that closely resembled the later Phoenician alphabet. Clearly Semitic, the language was used to record names and events important to people traveling through the Sinai or working in the nearby copper mines.

    This language, well in use before the time of Moses, is readable as Hebrew3 and matches the Israelites’ history. It appears only in this area at the time the Israelites were in Egypt and then only in Canaan, after the Israelites had settled there. Though this evidence is not widely known and not yet accepted by mainline scholars, it makes the case that Moses had available to him an early form of Hebrew in which he could write the Torah.

    Perhaps this language was a special gift from God to His covenant people to enable them to retain the knowledge of Him and His laws.4 Orthodox Judaism contends that every letter of the Torah was given directly by God (Ex. 31:18), thus separating it from other Old Testament divine revelation. Nevertheless, our Bibles begin with the Five Books of Moses; and thanks to archaeological discoveries, we can affirm its words of truth, especially as they point to our Messiah (Dt. 18:15–18).
    ENDNOTES

    These views are based on the JEDP theory that dissected the Torah into different compositions produced by different schools in different time periods, as well as the supposed lack of archaeological support for the Exodus.
    “Did the pharaohs know hieroglyphic writing?—Polish Egyptologist explains,” Science in Poland (March 31, 2014) <tinyurl.com/pharaohWrite>.
    While still controversial, see Douglas Petrovitch, The World’s Oldest Alphabet: Hebrew as the Language of the Proto-Consonantal Script (Jerusalem: Carta Jerusalem, 2016).
    This was the conclusion drawn by the recent film and book by Tim Mahoney, The Moses Controversy (Thinking Man Films, 2019).

    Dr. Randall Price is a university professor, author, and world-renowned archaeologist. He is also the founder and president of World of the Bible Ministries (worldofthebible.com).


    According to Jesus you were not only born fallen but also conceived in sin.

  6. #246
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    According to Jesus you were not only born fallen but also conceived in sin.
    Critically what people say Jesus said. And that is clearly not what the OT says. Realistically that is Paul and Augustine say

    ----

    The Bible narrowly says Moses recorded the laws and a song. He is not said to have written the whole OTs first 5 books. Exodus 24:4 simply says he wrote down the preceding laws all of them. Textual analysis makes it reasonably clear there multiple authors of the 5 books. But this is pointless I realize that since people wrote that Jesus said it to be so this is a point of faith for Evangelical Christians in particular so really no point in wasting time.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    Well since Jesus is your Creator and God don't you think that anything He said carries more weight than the opinion of one He created?

  8. #248
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Well since Jesus is your Creator and God don't you think that anything He said carries more weight than the opinion of one He created?
    If I were to come to believe in the Bible creation story. I would say you are clearly incorrect God is my creator not Jesus. Second again we that tricky bit about what people chose to say Jesus said and more over how that has been interpreted over time. In other words the answer is no.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #249
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    Jesus Christ is God as well as being our Creator.

  10. #250
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Jesus Christ is God as well as being our Creator.
    That's not what the OT says.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #251
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    Well if that's not the case then why is it that the Jews accepted then as well as now that a Messiah will come if it is not written of in their Old Covenant Scriptures? The prophets told of Him, of His looks and character, of His death and His resurrection and many were to be saved as we can read after these events thus beginning the Christian Church in the place that these took place.

  12. #252
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Well if that's not the case then why is it that the Jews accepted then as well as now that a Messiah will come if it is not written of in their Old Covenant Scriptures? The prophets told of Him, of His looks and character, of His death and His resurrection and many were to be saved as we can read after these events thus beginning the Christian Church in the place that these took place.
    Debating where you see the not described Jesus of the New Testament and your understanding of him in the OT is pretty well off topic.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #253
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    Isaiah 53:2-3 tells us prophetically that He would be a man of sorrows, unbecoming in looks and that He would be wounded for our transgressions which He was. In other words He wasn't the tall handsome guy depicted by the imagination of certain church systems and artists that surround us today. What made Him stand out was the Scriptural authority by which He spoke and that was what the Jews feared the most about Him. Why even the miracles He performed were not enough to convince them as a whole for we can read how they mocked Him when pinned to that cross. He indeed was the " seed " promised by God at the fall in the garden by Adam and Eve.

  14. #254
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    He indeed was the " seed " promised by God at the fall in the garden by Adam and Eve
    No clear reading of the text in original language reduces the Garden episode to a seed. It clear reference to Eve's progeny in general.

    On Isaiah if you do not just pick bits it very much a describing an earth paradise for the living and one that involves no original sin but returning to proper worship of god and the laws to right in the eyes of god.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #255
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    Quote, " A while back I gave a communion meditation on Genesis 3:15 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] in which I had said that the seed of the woman who would be at enmity with the seed of the serpent were the descendants of Eve who would not remain in their alienation to God. While the Bible does teach that mankind is divided between those who are alienated to God and those who have been reconciled with God, that is not the primary meaning of the seed of the woman in this verse. The end of the verse clarifies for us what is meant by the “seed of the woman”. The seed of the woman is the single male individual who will bruise the serpent on his head. Seed is singular throughout this verse, but “seed” can be collective as “descendants” or it can have reference to a single individual. Paul points this out, referring to the seed of Abraham, in Galatians 3:16 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] : Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many but rather to one. “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. Most of the references to Abraham and his seed in Genesis are the collective seed, that is his descendants. Examples are that his seed will be as the dust in number (Gen 13:16 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), and as the stars (Gen 15:5 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), and your seed will be strangers in a land that is not theirs (Gen 15:13 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ). But there is biblical evidence that God meant a singular descendant of Abraham by other references in Genesis. For instance, Genesis 22:17 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ends by saying, “And your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.” “His” is the reading of the Hebrew text and in a number of translations other than the NASB. Then verse 18 reads “And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed…”

    In Galatians 3:8 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] Paul indicates that Scripture foresaw the justification of the Gentiles by faith and that it preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” These evidences seem to indicate that God’s promises to Abraham that “in him” or “in him and his seed” all the nations of the earth will be blessed are pointing to Christ. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed (literal translation), heirs according to promise.” (Gal 3:29 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ) " Unquote.

    So, if you are correct when did you bruise Satan's head?

  16. #256
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    As I said you have completely devolved to scriptural analysis devoid of any link to the OP. Genesis 3:15 is clearly using the word seed as progeny a not some fore telling of Jesus, one person. The snake is clearly described as an animal made by god. Thus no I rather like snakes see no reason to kill them and I think I mentioned I don't believe in Satan,
    Last edited by conon394; July 02, 2022 at 09:23 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #257
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    John 5:45-47 tells us that Moses not only wrote the first five books of the Bible but that he was writing them specifically about Jesus as the coming " seed " of Eve to be bruised for certain sinners covering all time. So where's the connection between Moses and Jesus? Clearly Moses was chosen to lead the Jews out of captivity in Egypt and Jesus Christ became a man to lead Jew and Gentile out of the captivity of sin. That's why Jesus could say that Moses wrote of Him.

  18. #258
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    I not really enamored with what people say Jesus said after the fact. And its a pretty convoluted interpretation of the OT passage and one that does not match the proper linguistic usage.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #259
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    conon394,

    As I have already said, once all the clues are in, one can then make a proper judgement which is to say that Jesus Christ can be found all over the Old Testament. Why even after I was saved the penny didn't drop till I studied both sets of Books meaning that everything fell into place because the Holy Spirit led me to see it. As John writes, " He is the Light of the world but the world cannot comprehend it." Why? Because as is written they are blinded by sin.

  20. #260
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Science will not win over Religion

    As I have already said, once all the clues are in, one can then make a proper judgement which is to say that Jesus Christ can be found all over the Old Testament.
    Or bright people worked really hard to interpret him into it in the way they understood him to be.
    Last edited by conon394; July 04, 2022 at 08:20 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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