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Thread: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

  1. #81
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    If only we could return to Eden when all the animals were vegetarian. That was back when God showed Adam all the animals to see if would marry one of them.
    Cyclops,

    Back then Adam was made in the image of God, the animals weren't so why would God Who separated each to its own kind want to see such an absurd thing? Oh I know that down through time humans in their lusts have satisfied themselves with animals yet one of the laws God demanded of humans was not to do such things. Perhaps it is that you have too many sheep down there.

  2. #82
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Genesis 1, 24-26:

    24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    26 Then God said, “Let us make man[h] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    Animals were made before man!

    And then Genesis 2, 18-23:

    18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for[e] him.” 19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed[f] every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam[g] there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made[h] into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,

    “This at last is bone of my bones
    and flesh of my flesh;
    she shall be called Woman,
    because she was taken out of Man.”[i]

    And the woman was only made after Adam was not content with animals as "helper".

    Obviously Cyclops know the Bible better than you.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; February 09, 2022 at 05:55 PM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
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  3. #83

    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Genesis 1, 24-26:

    24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    26 Then God said, “Let us make man[h] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    Animals were made before man!

    And then Genesis 2, 18-23:

    18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for[e] him.” 19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed[f] every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam[g] there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made[h] into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,

    “This at last is bone of my bones
    and flesh of my flesh;
    she shall be called Woman,
    because she was taken out of Man.”[i]

    And the woman was only made after Adam was not content with animals as "helper".

    Obviously Cyclops know the Bible better than you.
    The verses you provided do not say that "Adam was not content with animals as "helper"".

    The verses you provided indicate that God decided to provide Adam with a helper fit for him, because animals were not.

  4. #84
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    You're all adults here... how and why does this even matter?

  5. #85
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    Back then Adam was made in the image of God, the animals weren't so why would God Who separated each to its own kind want to see such an absurd thing? Oh I know that down through time humans in their lusts have satisfied themselves with animals yet one of the laws God demanded of humans was not to do such things. Perhaps it is that you have too many sheep down there.
    how do you want to convince someone of something using as an argument something that you know that person does not take seriously (i.e. the genesis, the bible).

  6. #86

    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    There are subtleties in Genesis that don’t come across in translation. Regarding the creation of man and woman, there are two versions.

    The first seems to imply man and woman were created together:

    “And God created man in his image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:27)

    In Genesis 2:18, God says “It is not good for man to be alone, I will make an ᶜęzer kəneḡdōw”.

    The word ᶜęzer, usually translated as “helper”, comes from the root meaning “to be strong”. When a possessive suffix is present, it simply means “strength”. The sense of helper can be interpreted as the woman adding to the man’s overall strength, except that it says that she will be an ᶜęzer kəneḡdōw. That second word can be interpreted in two ways, as corresponding or in opposition, so that her strength either corresponds to his, she is the other half, or that she is against him, as in opposition to him. According to the Mishna, this double meaning was understood as deliberate in early Rabbinic Judaism:

    “Rabbi Eleazar said: What is the meaning of the scriptural text, I will make an ᶜęzer kəneḡdōw? If he is worthy she is a help to him; if he is not worthy she is against him. Others say: Rabbi Eleazar pointed out a contradiction: It is written kəneḡdōw but we read kəneḡdōw. If he is worthy she is strength for him; if he is not worthy she chastises him. Rabbi Yosi to Eliyahu asked: It is written, I will make him an ᶜęzer; how does a woman help a man? The other replied: If a man brings wheat, does he grind the wheat? If flax, does he press the flax? Does she not, then, bring light to his eyes and put him on his feet.” (Yevamot 63a)

    In the second creation narrative, the woman is created from the man’s ṣęlāᶜ. This may be another intentional double meaning, because the word can mean both a rib or one side of a whole. The latter translation is used when referring to one side of the Ark, as in Exodus 25:12 and Exodus 37:3 for example.

    EDIT: A clarification about kəneḡdōw, kə- is a prefix meaning “that”, while -ōw is a suffix meaning “him”.
    Last edited by sumskilz; February 10, 2022 at 03:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #87
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    how do you want to convince someone of something using as an argument something that you know that person does not take seriously (i.e. the genesis, the bible).
    mishkin,

    Well that's a good question so let's see if I can give you a good answer. I begin in the knowledge that everyone being dead in their sin does not want to hear about God so I usually wait until I hear Jesus Christ being used as a curse by people and then I step in. After giving them a friendly pat on the wrist I ask them what our conversation had to do with Jesus? Usually they cannot answer so I then ask if they ever thought about Him? With their blank stares that gives me an opportunity to tell them that He is not only their possible Saviour but their Creator as well. If that doesn't raise a spark the conversation usually ends pretty quickly.

    Now if Genesis is raised with evolution the main antagonist against it, it gives me an opportunity to debate the subject placing one argument against the other. You see I just cannot understand how anyone can be fooled into believing that billions of years ago there was a big bang started from nothing after which certain chemicals got mixed in a soup out of which rose up a living thing. At least God witnessed His creation but who witnessed the fairytale I just mentioned? The reply is almost always that science proves it yet science changes all the time in that at first there never was a beginning yet now they say there was. So I can now ask how it was that sea creatures could turn into land animals and of course the answer is always, over time, a time that no one can prove yet not one transitional has ever been found and proved to be true. God's version being far better usually ends the conversation.

  8. #88
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    So I can now ask how it was that sea creatures could turn into land animals and of course the answer is always, over time, a time that no one can prove yet not one transitional has ever been found and proved to be true.
    Not true. Many transitional fossils were found. For example:

    A new protocetid whale offers clues to biogeography and feeding ecology in early cetacean evolution | Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences (royalsocietypublishing.org)
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  9. #89
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    You see I just cannot understand how anyone can be fooled into believing that billions of years ago there was a big bang started from nothing after which certain chemicals got mixed in a soup out of which rose up a living thing. At least God witnessed His creation but who witnessed the fairytale I just mentioned?
    You mean the god creation story - nobody.

    The reply is almost always that science proves it yet science changes all the time


    The latter is the point it changes as new evidence accrues or old and poor analysis is superseded.
    Last edited by conon394; February 10, 2022 at 08:36 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #90
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Evolution denialist arguments change also permanently, also the never heard universities, from where their academic graduation is from.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  11. #91
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Now if Genesis is raised with evolution the main antagonist against it, it gives me an opportunity to debate the subject placing one argument against the other.
    Well the easy reply is its no one against the other. Science is as expected a changing field and its answers have to change with evidence and analysis. You how however have started with the arrogance that your particular belief in a creation myth is true. You rather have contest with quite a few others before getting to the finals and say science is bunk.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    mishkin,

    Well that's a good question so let's see if I can give you a good answer. I begin in the knowledge that everyone being dead in their sin does not want to hear about God so I usually wait until I hear Jesus Christ being used as a curse by people and then I step in. After giving them a friendly pat on the wrist I ask them what our conversation had to do with Jesus? Usually they cannot answer so I then ask if they ever thought about Him? With their blank stares that gives me an opportunity to tell them that He is not only their possible Saviour but their Creator as well. If that doesn't raise a spark the conversation usually ends pretty quickly.

    Now if Genesis is raised with evolution the main antagonist against it, it gives me an opportunity to debate the subject placing one argument against the other. You see I just cannot understand how anyone can be fooled into believing that billions of years ago there was a big bang started from nothing after which certain chemicals got mixed in a soup out of which rose up a living thing. At least God witnessed His creation but who witnessed the fairytale I just mentioned? The reply is almost always that science proves it yet science changes all the time in that at first there never was a beginning yet now they say there was. So I can now ask how it was that sea creatures could turn into land animals and of course the answer is always, over time, a time that no one can prove yet not one transitional has ever been found and proved to be true. God's version being far better usually ends the conversation.
    Many Christians have made their peace with cosmology and evolutionary biology. I’m not sure how but they have. To me it boils down to cognitive dissonance and the need to maintain a faith narrative but I’m curious:

    https://biologos.org/common-question...d-creationism/

    What about this to you is invalid or otherwise undesirable?
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  13. #93
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Many Christians have made their peace with cosmology and evolutionary biology. I’m not sure how but they have. To me it boils down to cognitive dissonance and the need to maintain a faith narrative but I’m curious:
    Seems pretty easy to me. You Just conclude that the OT is basically a collection of of Creation myths, law giving and nation building mythology with some history... Than decide if you like the religion Paul and Augustine devised vs other options.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    If the first half is mythology I’m not sure how that helps the credibility of the second half.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  15. #95
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    You see what the problem is in that man searches for reasons not to believe God and so something, anything, has to be found to do that. Evolution is the answer for them even though there is not a shred of evidence that it is true. Every single so-called transition has been proved to be not a transition at all and so it will be for any other that pops up. One would think that over the billions of years the world would be covered in them but no, never mind that I have never seen nor heard of half-men and half something else walking the planet as should be the case today. The fun thing is that I can imagine certain writers on these threads being half monkey or part banana. I can hear them scream, but we are, as they jump up and down like a monkey to make their point.

    As for the religious being convinced that God somehow used evolution in His creation may I say that that's all they are, religious, but certainly not Christian. Genesis is quite clear as to how we came to be so there is absolutely no need to dilute that just to please people who are dead in their sin as appears to be happening all over. This life is finite but the next is eternal which the evolutionist will find out when he or she pops his or her clogs in this one. The only transition that ever took place in this world is when Jesus Christ took up union with an egg of Mary to become a man in the flesh. He came to bring life eternal to some who now walk the narrow path leaving the others on that wide road that leads to hell. This He completed whilst dying on a cross just outside Jerusalem thus finalising all that the prophets had foretold many times over the centuries before. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ for there is no other.

  16. #96
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    You see what the problem is in that man searches for reasons not to believe God and so something, anything, has to be found to do that. Evolution is the answer for them even though there is not a shred of evidence that it is true. Every single so-called transition has been proved to be not a transition at all and so it will be for any other that pops up. One would think that over the billions of years the world would be covered in them but no, never mind that I have never seen nor heard of half-men and half something else walking the planet as should be the case today. The fun thing is that I can imagine certain writers on these threads being half monkey or part banana. I can hear them scream, but we are, as they jump up and down like a monkey to make their point.
    Your view of evolution is remarkably simplistic. And also of course bounded by your young earth creationism. But do the favor and try and describe what you think a transition is or is supposed to be.

    Also I unsure where you showed Morticia Iunia Bruti linked paper in the post above to be a fraud?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #97
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    I would like to point that the church fathers were very much clear that we have no idea how God created the earth, how long it took, through what process, that creation is a mystery and that it is a grievous sin for anyone to claim they hold the absolute truth about creation.

    Calling other people not Christian for believing evolution, when you don't have the truth either, is even worse because it reeks of pride and pride is the mother and father of all sin.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; February 11, 2022 at 09:14 AM.
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  18. #98

    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    Regardless of specific theories early church fathers had regarding creation and the Genesis account, the belief that God personally, literally and deliberately created everything ex nihilo was fundamental to all of them. So was the idea that everything is utterly dependent on God for its continued existence, in which he is personally involved. It was only when Darwin’s discoveries came along that Christian doctrine regarding creation began to retreat from that premise in an effort to accommodate them.

    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  19. #99
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    It never retreated. Evolution does not contradict intelligent design at all. Evolution simply points out how, not who or why. The Orthodox church of example holds the same doctrine about genesis as it did 1800 years ago "we don't know how and why and do not care, go ask the philosophers, we're busy healing your soul".
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; February 11, 2022 at 01:51 PM.
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  20. #100

    Default Re: Why do you believe in God, or why not?

    I’m positive the presentation from the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern US does not claim the early church fathers believed “we don't know how and why and do not care.” Quite the opposite. The Roman Church has rejected intelligent design in favor of theistic evolution, the view which holds that Christian doctrine can be reconciled to the modern scientific consensus. In order to conform to the evidence for the Big Bang, natural selection and common ancestry, theistic evolution holds that God preordained cosmological and evolutionary processes (including the sin and death necessary for that to happen) and does not directly intervene in those processes. This is a rejection of the early church doctrine of creation ex nihilo and the dependency of all creation on God’s continuous personal intervention.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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