Why do you believe in God, or why not?

[razerbelkin]

I´d like to know, why you believe in God. Are there any experiences you had you cannot explain otherwise, or do you believe without "hard evidence"? Also I´d like to know why you don´t believe in God, why are you atheist? Curious for what you people will reply. Let´s discuss

[Akar]

I don't need a reason not to believe 2 + 2 is 5 nor do I need a reason not to believe in god. The default position for anything should be disbelief until provided with sufficient evidence to show otherwise.

[razerbelkin]

The default position for anything should be disbelief until provided with sufficient evidence to show otherwise.

Now, that´s interesting and I understand your point. When I started the Judgement Day thread I hoped to provide some "hard evidence" with Irlmaier. I cannot explain this man with rationality, nor could the judge in his famous trial. If you have 2 minutes to read,please take a look at what I wrote here . It gives a very good impression of that man. Of course I want to point this out:

The interrogation of the witnesses Himpel, Stadler, Wallner, Hiebl and Kaess has produced such astonishing testimony to the accused's talent for vision, which can hardly be explained with the previously known forces of nature, that he cannot be described as a juggler.

I think Irlmaier´s gifts were God-given. How can you correctly predict where a bomb will hit for example, if it is not for divine intervention?

[basics]

I lived in a house that had just been built and because my then mistress was moving in with her kids I wanted my book collection about the Napoleonic Wars out of their reach so I put them up in the loft. To do that I had to stand precariously on the edge of the bannister which I did successfully only because I had no ladders then. Now remember that no-one else had lived in that house as it had just been built so what I am about to relate is absolutely true. When we were splitting up I agreed to give the house over to her and so when the kids were at school and she was out working I went up to the loft still balancing on the bannister to bring out my books which by the way were just inside the loft hatch. Surprisingly there was one book that felt different from the rest and when I brought out into the light I saw it was a Bible.

Was it mine, no? Was it hers, certainly not as she was an atheist. So I brought it down with my other books and made ready for the furniture movers to pick up my stuff. I checked the thing to see if there was any hint as to who it did belong to and found nothing. It hadn't been separate as one would expect for it felt as if it was in the middle of the pile that were my books and there had been no-one in our house never mind up in the loft as I was the first occupier so where did it come from? To this day I have never found that out. However once in my new abode I opened it to do some browsing and that's when the dreams became more prevalent. At that time I was driving buses for Edinburgh Corporation when an old acquaintance offered me the franchise for a toy shop up in Elgin which I accepted. I moved into a flat in a village nearby called Hopeman and it was there that I became friends with a guy who owned the local garage.

On one occasion he asked if I went to church to which I replied a long time ago and it was then he invited me to go along to his church. When he told me it was a Baptist place I cringed because my family on my mother's side were all Church of Scotland and so after some banter he then said that if I would go with him to his church he would come with me to a Church of Scotland of my choice. To cut a long story short I took up the dare for Sunday coming and what happened shocked me to the quick. Everything that minister preached that day went straight into my heart like daggers and when we left I pinned John against the wall accusing him of speaking to the minister about me. He claimed and rightly so that he had not spoken with the preacher and suggested that I should. Indeed when he asked me if I was going back that night my reply was in the negative as you can imagine, yet when I got into my digs I couldn't get out of my head how that preacher knew so much about me and so that night I went back and didn't stop. Not long after I was on my knees asking God to change my life.

As I prayed I could feel a warm glow rise up from my feet till it reached the top of my head and I didn't know why. You see I suffered from ankalosing spondylitis and had never went a day or night without many painkillers yet that night I slept like a baby. When I got into the shop the next morn Carol my assistant kept staring at me and asking if something was wrong. When I asked her why she replied that I hadn't sworn nor cursed which was very unusual for me and believe me I haven't cursed although i have sworn since then. It was then that the dreams and visions started increasing and one night when I got into bed around ten with the Bible that had mysteriously come into my posession I found myself up in the air in darkness but moving towards what I didn't know. I remember being scared, very scared and even more so when I hovered over something that I could barely make out. Suddenly what appeared to be a head turned up towards me and its mouth was saying something I couldn't hear yet I knew it was human because of the colour from its mouth and eyes. What it was saying was said right over my shoulder and past me and its appearance otherwise was filthily horrid that again I shook like a leaf.

Suddenly I woke up covered from head to foot in sweat and fear. I looked at my watch and the time was now six o'clock in the morning. When I got to the garage for petrol there was John gazing at me and saying I looked as if I had seen a ghost. After repeating what I could remember he said that I should speak to the minister about it and I replied no way. However that next Sunday a group of us were gathered at the manse for coffee and chat when someone started talking about the crucifixion and I interrupted them by relating what I saw. Now I knew it said that Jesus was crucified but I never knew what the Bible said about it as I had never read that. The room went silent as I spoke till eventually the minister's wife said that I had been given something to see and so I poured over everything about the crucifixion then realising I had been taken back to see Jesus making His last cry from the cross. Then did it begin to sik in that Jesus Christ died for me in that horrible condition to put me on my knees not that many days before yet He did it some two thousand odd years previously.

It is these experiences plus many more as to why I believe there is a God Who not only exists but is active in anything that exists to bring glory to Himself.

[razerbelkin]

Thanks for that very personal insight basics, very appreciated. I too had some experiences for which I have no explanation, but I dont want to talk about it publicly yet. While I hope for Akars answer to my question above, I am very interested in what you make of Irlmaier Basics. Best wishes!

[Akar]

I think Irlmaier´s gifts were God-given. How can you correctly predict where a bomb will hit for example, if it is not for divine intervention?

The same way you predict anything else? By examining evidence and making assumptions based off the conclusions of those examinations.

That being said, the veracity of the document you posted is dubious at best. And even if it is real, a 19th century judge is by no means the final arbiter of truth, fact, and science.

I really don't have more to say because its such a patently ludicrous idea that it honestly doesn't even deserve consideration.

I cannot explain this man with rationality

Your entire position was a lost cause as soon as you said this anyway.

[Sar1n]

Neither. I'm a "hard" agnostic. Truth about god's existence is inherently unknowable, because god isn't a subject to any sort of logic or system. If it was, there would be something superior to it, through which god could be manipulated...and thus wouldn't really be a god at all.

The implication is also that god doesn't have any relevance outside your own head. To any phenomenon that you can't explain immediately, you can suppose either natural or supernatural origin. Natural means it's part of some kind of logical system, even if you don't understand it yet, even if it's so far outside your understanding that it doesn't seem possible. Cavemen would think the same about nuclear weapons, for example, but that doesn't stop us from understanding and (hopefully not) using them. It's an experience from which you can learn. And this way, humanity advanced from cavemen to nuclear energy.
Supernatural explanation means lack of system. And you can't learn anything from that. How do you know that your supernatural experience was genuine? God could be pulling your leg. Or it could be about something else entirely. Because there is no system in it, the possibilities are literally infinite.

Bottom line, I don't know if god exists or not, but it's definitely superior to approach life as if it did not.

[antaeus]

This thread is a tad presumptuous on several levels:

Firstly, it rests on the presumption that there is one God, and not multiple gods. The majority of "evidences" for the existence of a singular God, also apply to multiple gods. As do most of the logical arguments.

Secondly, as others have mentioned, we can't presume certainty about what lies outside of current knowledge. There isn't enough evidence to suppose the existence of a supernatural deity or deities, but this does not rule the possibility out. having a hardened position on something for which there is no independently verifiable evidence isn't rational. In this respect, I would suggest that religions are theoretical, and will remain so until evidence suggests otherwise.

[Lord Thesaurian]

One could speculate mathematically or otherwise about the existence of some kind of entity or entities which our anthropocentric perspective might understand as “divine” or supernatural. Consider the way we theorize about the existence of extraterrestrial life based on observed life here on Earth. Specific belief in the God of the Bible/Torah/Quran, by the same token, would require evidence or at least consistency with the available evidence if true. I don’t think the consistency is there, so I don’t.

Begging the question, “what if you’re wrong?” and the implication of divine punishment isn’t useful, even as a false dilemma, since many religions propose stiff natural or supernatural consequences for disbelief in their particular doctrine. Mere acceptance of a generically divine premise was never sufficient in any case. So any religious perspective inherently faces the more difficult burden of proof: incontrovertible evidence of not just god or gods, but of their particular version. The idea the latter is equivalent to disbelief is not how evidence works. No one believes in unicorns “just in case.”

[conon394]

I would argue to fair we do need say God, Goddess, Deities, Ancestral spirits, Prime movers etc.

But like other replies I fall into the hard agnostic crowd. Nobodies just so story turns my head or makes me feel particularity warm and fuzzy and to many need a lot belief to paste over their logical inconstancy. But I will admit both people I personally know and respect and historical figures that I also respect seem or have seemed to have faith and that I cannot dismiss out hand like some solid Atheist. So sit on the fence and wait to find out... Makes life more interesting. Really having faith is kinda like playing pass 4 pinochle. Getting dealt aces around and a strong trump suit is fine, but and than having your partner deliver to you make make full a run with double aces and nines and having the luxury of short suiting yourself. The game is kinda boring since you can't loose.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Agnostic pagan tending to animism.

Even if you look at the Bible alone, there are two gods.

The god of OT: revengeful for every little violation of his rule.
The god of NT: merciful, forgiven.

Sorry, but the Bible lost me at women are second after man and the merciless burning down of the canaanite cities.

Even those who converted to jewish belief.

Not my belief.

Nature, Trees, Forest on the other side have something comforting/strengthening for me.

But could also be only imagination so agnostic.

[Akar]

Sorry, but the Bible lost me at women are second after man

Sounds like someone still needs to learn their place!

[razerbelkin]

@Morticia: Yeah, I see these "two kind of Gods" in the New and Old Testament aswell. That´s something that irritates me, too. Generally speaking I am not too focussed on the scriptures, or interpret them word by word, albeit I find that many bible quotes are simply amazing. But I am in no way an expert in these matters. But of course I do believe in God, respectively Jesus Christ.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Sounds like someone still needs to learn their place!

[Sar1n]

Or, as I say, be nice to people preparing your food. They can take revenge in most creative ways.

[basics]

@Morticia: Yeah, I see these "two kind of Gods" in the New and Old Testament aswell. That´s something that irritates me, too. Generally speaking I am not too focussed on the scriptures, or interpret them word by word, albeit I find that many bible quotes are simply amazing. But I am in no way an expert in these matters. But of course I do believe in God, respectively Jesus Christ.

razerbelkin,

It's the same God in both Testaments and if you think not just have a read at the papers or watch tv and see the numbers who are still dying and dying for the very same reasons. Mankind was put under a curse because of Adam's disobeience and that curse remains on man today. People die because they don't want to know that they have a responsiblity to God even though a Saviour was provided for their sin and that long before man came into existence. There is only One God and He consists of Three Persons in the One Being so any other representation of God is no more than man's imagination.

[razerbelkin]

Thank you basics!

[basics]

razerbelkin,

I relate these things because of my personal experiences with God and for no other reason. The key to that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ which can only be seen in the Bible or spoken of by another Christian, why? Because that Gospel is the power of God, unto salvation, nothing else. It is God who saves.

[conon394]

It is God who saves

From what?

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Eternal hell ^^

If you believe Mr. B.