Why do you believe in God, or why not?

[Muizer]

when someone preaches the Gospel

Is that what you're doing? Is that what you think this place is for?

[basics]

Muizer,

What is it for then because since 2004 that's what I have been writing about and has attracted not a small amount of responses as well as viewings?

[Ludicus]

conon394,
]....No, I can't work a computer because I am simply not interested but I am content to post in as simple a manner as possible. Man, I don't even own a mobile phone. I am eighty now and as just discovered I have a serious heart problem for which the Medics are still trying to figure out so I don't expect to be around for much longer but until that event happens I will continue to tell of the wonderful God and Saviour that I know.

I hope you're doing well. It's been over a year since your last post.
-----

If evolution was correct in Darwinian sense...

Darwin vs Kierkegaard S"ren Kierkegaard Newsletter

[AqD]

He's either well in our world, or well in another. A true believer is always well.

[Muizer]

Well he (or his account) visited only a few days ago.

[Sogdog]

There is no evidence for your god.
Any reason you give that proves your god exists can be used for the thousands of other gods/goddesses.
Any reason you give that disproves other gods can be used against your god.

You're welcome.

[chriscase]

Does this mean you are OK with a vaguely defined god-like entity that conveniently subsumes traditional religions? For example let's say I "believe in" a "divine principle" that has the following properties:

- It encompasses all reality that - at a given time - eludes empirical verification.
- To whatever extent a given traditional religion agrees with my conception of this divine entity, that religion has it right.
- To whatever extent a given traditional religion disagrees with my conception of this divine entity, that religion has it wrong.

Would you still disagree with this hypothetical religion?

[Sir Adrian]

There is no evidence for your god.
Any reason you give that proves your god exists can be used for the thousands of other gods/goddesses.
Any reason you give that disproves other gods can be used against your god.

You're welcome.

There is ample evidence for God, people just elect to ignore it or outright discard it.

[Sogdog]

There is ample evidence for God, people just elect to ignore it or outright discard it.

The evidence used to "prove" your god exists can be used to "prove" the existence of all gods past and current.
Your god is neither original nor real.

[Muizer]

There is ample evidence for God, people just elect to ignore it or outright discard it.

It seems to me that when people refer to evidence for God, they invariably refer to testimonial evidence, not scientific evidence.

[chriscase]

I have lots of evidence for God. God is a big bright ball in the sky. It shows up early in the day to the East, gradually moves across the sky to the West, and disappears over the horizon at night. God keeps us warm and helps grow our crops. Without God, our planet would be a lifeless rock. God is also by far the largest thing anywhere near us. Even when I can't see God directly I can tell it's still there, warming the other side of the planet. God sure is awesome.

[mishkin]

Two thousand years of Christianity and every debate ends with "you don't believe in god because you don't have faith, you don't believe in god because you refuse to open your eyes to him, by the way, you will burn in hell."

[Flinn]

Two thousand years of Christianity and every debate ends with "you don't believe in god because you don't have faith, you don't believe in god because you refuse to open your eyes to him, by the way, you will burn in hell."

I'm not a religious person myself (in the strict sense of the term) and you know it, but I have to say: faith is all about you need to be a religious individual, or, even better to say, it's the only mandatory "skill" one needs to be so. Faith is a skill that one can also train, or induct into others (by any sort of means, included very naughty ones).
If there's certainty, it's not a religion, it's a scientific fact. If it does not need faith, it's a philosophy (such as the Buddism).

I don't blame people who have faith, I do blame those who want to use the faith (in whatever form) to dominate the others; I despise them even more when they act hypocritically and do not follow the word of the faith themselves (or willingly misinterpret it to boost their own personal agenda) and I usually fight against those kind of people. Unfortunately there seems to be a resurgence of similar individuals all across the industrialized countries (for the most).

So, I believe most of us do not have an issue with the idea of a "god", whether singular or plural, whether anthropomorphic or zoomorphic, concrete or abstract, but how this idea might be used. The idea of a deity is somewhat the greatest achievement of the human mind, but because of this it can (and had, many times) generate any sort of nightmare, and hence many consider it better to completely get rid of it, seeing how the benefits do not counterbalance the cons.

What about Flinn, then? I'm sort of complicated.. I do not believe in any specific "god", but I do believe in karma (or that's how some call this universal sort-of force which seems to be affecting people lives as a consequence of their actions) and because of this I do have faith.. and I pray.. not to any god, but to myself, to my conscience one can say. I don't give a crap about convincing the others of my believes and I do not base them on someone's else experiences, but on mine exclusively: I do believe in karma because I witnessed it myself many times, the rest is irrelevant to me.

[Muizer]

I can sort of empathize with how religion would fit the perception of primitive peoples had of their world in a the distant past and how that may have lingered somewhat until a few centuries ago. But that particular religious experience would surely have died as our understanding of the world progressed and education improved? I find trying to imagine what it would be like to see divine intervention as manifest in the day to day life a very unsettling experience at the least and downright scary at worst depending on what creed people follow.

[mishkin]

I'm not a religious person myself (in the strict sense of the term) and you know it, but I have to say: faith is all about you need to be a religious individual, or, even better to say, it's the only mandatory "skill" one needs to be so. Faith is a skill that one can also train, or induct into others (by any sort of means, included very naughty ones).
If there's certainty, it's not a religion, it's a scientific fact. If it does not need faith, it's a philosophy (such as the Buddism).

I don't blame people who have faith, I do blame those who want to use the faith (in whatever form) to dominate the others; I despise them even more when they act hypocritically and do not follow the word of the faith themselves (or willingly misinterpret it to boost their own personal agenda) and I usually fight against those kind of people. Unfortunately there seems to be a resurgence of similar individuals all across the industrialized countries (for the most).

So, I believe most of us do not have an issue with the idea of a "god", whether singular or plural, whether anthropomorphic or zoomorphic, concrete or abstract, but how this idea might be used. The idea of a deity is somewhat the greatest achievement of the human mind, but because of this it can (and had, many times) generate any sort of nightmare, and hence many consider it better to completely get rid of it, seeing how the benefits do not counterbalance the cons.

What about Flinn, then? I'm sort of complicated.. I do not believe in any specific "god", but I do believe in karma (or that's how some call this universal sort-of force which seems to be affecting people lives as a consequence of their actions) and because of this I do have faith.. and I pray.. not to any god, but to myself, to my conscience one can say. I don't give a crap about convincing the others of my believes and I do not base them on someone's else experiences, but on mine exclusively: I do believe in karma because I witnessed it myself many times, the rest is irrelevant to me.

Well, I also try to have a clear conscience and be a good person, or at least one I am not ashamed of. But from my personal experience, horrible things happen to excellent people without any reason, and vice versa.

Regarding faith, choosing to believe or have hope in something that I know does not make any rational sense is not for me. I know that I would go home happier if I had faith that someone had put 100,000 euros on my bedside table, but I cannot convince myself of this or take the possibility seriously.

[Flinn]

Well, I also try to have a clear conscience and be a good person, or at least one I am not ashamed of. But from my personal experience, horrible things happen to excellent people without any reason, and vice versa.

I understand very much well where you are coming from, but for me, for my own life I mean, karma hit the nail 100% of the times. I cannot judge on the life of others, I barely manage to be intellectually honest enough to judge on my own life.. so who knows how really is the life of other individuals? Of course, there are some "global" events which dodge the logic of karma (I doubt all the Jews killed by the Nazi deserved that), and that's why a lot of people resort to the idea of a greater force.. a god

I can sort of empathize with how religion would fit the perception of primitive peoples had of their world in a the distant past and how that may have lingered somewhat until a few centuries ago. But that particular religious experience would surely have died as our understanding of the world progressed and education improved? I find trying to imagine what it would be like to see divine intervention as manifest in the day to day life a very unsettling experience at the least and downright scary at worst depending on what creed people follow.

Yes and no. I mean, IMO this is the period in human history, so far, where we are more aware that there's still much we need to understand, than ever before. Only think of the infinity of the Universe, which is a pretty recent concept. Or quantum mechanics. Who knows what lies in the infinite vastness? or what it is hidden in the (yet) obscure word of quantum fields?
I personally don't think that there is any god, in the strict human sense of the term, but I can still see why many would. I guess education also plays a role, yes.

[RoseCraft]

God helps manage the randomness in the world. Its a cold world out there.

[chriscase]

... think of the infinity of the Universe, which is a pretty recent concept. Or quantum mechanics. Who knows what lies in the infinite vastness? or what it is hidden in the (yet) obscure word of quantum fields?

FWIW even the concept of infinity is undergoing development - at least as it might apply to the physical universe. One might wonder if even the binary infinite/finite is too simplistic, perhaps reality is fuzzy in between. Even classical set theory proves there are multiple categories of non-finite set, for example the reals vs integers.

[Muizer]

Yes and no. I mean, IMO this is the period in human history, so far, where we are more aware that there's still much we need to understand, than ever before. Only think of the infinity of the Universe, which is a pretty recent concept. Or quantum mechanics. Who knows what lies in the infinite vastness? or what it is hidden in the (yet) obscure word of quantum fields? I personally don't think that there is any god, in the strict human sense of the term, but I can still see why many would. I guess education also plays a role, yes.

True, but I was not just speaking of a belief in a god, but about Religion. What I mean is that if your very existence depends on an environment that you do not understand in causal terms, it is not strange to project the only known driver of events you do understand, intent, onto it. Hence looking at the world as a place ruled by spiritual entities that humans can negotiate with in ways similar to the way we negotiate with other people. Monotheistic religions are not fundamentally different in this sense from polytheistic or animistic belief systems. While in the modern world still not everything can be predicted or explained a great deal can. Surely by now we should know better than to think we can negotiate over things that we now understand are governed by unbending principles of physics? So yes, gaps in our knowledge, and perhaps even the complexity of reality still leaves room to postulate a deity, but to think it would be one that can be bargained with in human terms (and thereby be a subject for religion) seems very far fetched.

[Flinn]

True, but I was not just speaking of a belief in a god, but about Religion. What I mean is that if your very existence depends on an environment that you do not understand in causal terms, it is not strange to project the only known driver of events you do understand, intent, onto it. Hence looking at the world as a place ruled by spiritual entities that humans can negotiate with in ways similar to the way we negotiate with other people. Monotheistic religions are not fundamentally different in this sense from polytheistic or animistic belief systems. While in the modern world still not everything can be predicted or explained a great deal can. Surely by now we should know better than to think we can negotiate over things that we now understand are governed by unbending principles of physics? So yes, gaps in our knowledge, and perhaps even the complexity of reality still leaves room to postulate a deity, but to think it would be one that can be bargained with in human terms (and thereby be a subject for religion) seems very far fetched.

Well possibly there has been a change of perspective. I doubt people rarely asked "what's the meaning of life?" when they were busy trying to not to be eaten by a wild beast or avoiding starvation. I mean, what you say is very much true, but it's not just that IMO. For instance, depression is a very modern disease which has everything to do with having a purpose in life, and many do find a "cure" for their depression in the faith. I won't, probably, but I'm not depressed. I did find a way to prevent stress/depression issues by becoming a dudeist and applying the taking it easy approach to my life, still I'm not surprised that many do resort in the idea of a god to answer their existential questions (or atl to have someone answering those for them).