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Thread: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

  1. #121

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    It doesn't serve justice but it serves society in different ways - according to you, is that right?
    That's right. If Ruth Bader Ginsburg was just as qualified a nomination as her peers, and she had the added benefit of inspiring countless women to become lawyers and judges in a way an equally qualified male wouldn't, I think that's a tradeoff which deserves serious consideration.

    Life isn't black and white. That's all I'm saying.

  2. #122

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    It is not "plausible" denial when Trump promoted 75% out of 245 judge appointments. It is clear bias that is impossible to hide.
    But I get what you're saying. Instead of playing coy, go on and admit it.
    This claim is still yet to be evidenced. It was explained above why "bias" on the part of the administration isn't a likely - let alone necessary - cause of the disparity.

    You say there are no good alternatives, and I kinda agree.
    However, I have to admit that Biden saying openly, as a candidate that he would promote a black woman to the supreme court, is ... at least honest. The people that voted Biden, entrusting him to choose whom he wants, have been TOLD what he would do. He didn't hoodwink anyone.
    Racial populism is a form of trickery, especially when it isn't even an attempt to achieve proportional representation (as the justification supposes) but an endorsement condition.



  3. #123

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Racial populism is a form of trickery, especially when it isn't even an attempt to achieve proportional representation
    Amen to that.

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    I'm familiar with the process. However, a claim was made. And I am requesting support for that claim. Which will not be forthcoming.
    I addressed your challenge. The fact that none of the candidates were universally rejected by Republicans clearly shows that there certainly aren't any objections about their qualifications - or there would be no bipartisan support whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    However, I would like to see some discussion on why you guys think gender / race should be considered aside of the political aspects of it.
    Because we're not quite there yet that equal rights can be taken off the agenda. Equal rights is established in law, but until it has also permeated our culture, discrimination is still going to be a thing. And in order for equality to permeate culture, people need to be able to see women and minorities in any position without thinking there's anything exotic about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Let's say the Supreme Court was 9 black women, all of them very very qualified. Why that is a worse composition than a mix of men and women, black, white and Asians?
    A mix that represents society will instil a sense of representation in all demographics.


    I.e. Why is diversity important in the court system aside of ensuring that a good judge that happens to be black WILL NOT be discriminated against?
    Because the court system is there to arbiter for the people. How are black people supposed to trust the justice system if there is no black representation? And while a white judge and a white jury may be impartial, history shows that black people have not been given a fair shake in the justice system. It used to be that black people couldn't even serve on the jury, and thankfully things have improved since then. Still a ways to go, though. And being able to trust the justice system is important, because if you don't trust the Law you feel less compelled to respect it.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; January 31, 2022 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Consecutive posts merged.

  5. #125

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kissaki View Post
    I addressed your challenge. The fact that none of the candidates were universally rejected by Republicans clearly shows that there certainly aren't any objections about their qualifications - or there would be no bipartisan support whatsoever.
    No, you did not. I was not challenging their qualifications. I was challenging the poster to provide proof to back up the poster's claim.

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    This claim is still yet to be evidenced. It was explained above why "bias" on the part of the administration isn't a likely - let alone necessary - cause of the disparity.
    I am not running the simulations again to show you too why it requires pro-male bias to promote 75% male candidates. Suffice to say that despite 75% being close to 70%, the number of promotions is large enough for 5% to require bias.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Racial populism is a form of trickery, especially when it isn't even an attempt to achieve proportional representation (as the justification supposes) but an endorsement condition.
    True, but the people voted for him despite that.
    As I have been saying when Demotards in 2017 were shouting and screaming and pulling their pink hair about Trump's tax returns: He was elected despite never showing them. It is clear it was not important enough to the USA electorate.

    Same with Biden: He said he will put in a black female Supreme Justice to save his campaign. He was elected after he made that promise and that promise had made headlines. So... his voters were either positive towards it or didn't mind the entire thing enough to not vote for him.
    One difference between "The people have spoken" cases of Trump's tax returns and Biden's promises is that Trump was more obnoxious about it and less liked by the media.
    Another difference is



    Look, @Cope, being in the center is hard. I can't try to talk sense to progressives coming from the left and have to repeat the same arguments to conservatives coming from the right.

    Suffice to say this:
    Both Presidents showed gender and racial bias in their picks. The math is clear on both cases.
    The question is whether it is bad to show gender and racial bias or not.

    My argument is: Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Progressives say (among unsupported attacks on my arguments) that this is not the case, since as long as you promote from the top, you are in the clear, so why not inspire people that have been historically maligned? <=== I am not 100% in agreement with that, but I think the reasonable arguments boil down to this.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  7. #127
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    @Alhoon

    Let's set back a second here. SO what if Biden picks a a black women. You will allow that A there are competent black lawyers in the US right? That B the current cast of characters is not by any measure exceptional having gone to almost completely Ivy league law schools and having clerks the best an brightest. Law Schoul is rather easy and they publish in student run journals students who want to be their clerks... Ask your self why Souter picked he was supposed to be a conservative but more importantly he was in a face a rube who now particular paper trail like Bork. All Judicial nominees are political. The fantasy that some you become platonic guardian when you get nominated it well fantasy. I hope Biden picks the youngest and most liberal black women he can I really have no problem with that just like I accept I stuck with Thomas who clearly was not the profound jurist in the US on the day he was nominated.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #128

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    The concession that Biden’s overt racial discrimination is political does not imply those critical of his racial discrimination are therefore racially discriminatory themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
    “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” - God Emperor Teddy

  9. #129
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    @Alhoon

    Let's set back a second here. SO what if Biden picks a a black women. You will allow that A there are competent black lawyers in the US right? That B the current cast of characters is not by any measure exceptional having gone to almost completely Ivy league law schools and having clerks the best an brightest. Law Schoul is rather easy and they publish in student run journals students who want to be their clerks... Ask your self why Souter picked he was supposed to be a conservative but more importantly he was in a face a rube who now particular paper trail like Bork. All Judicial nominees are political. The fantasy that some you become platonic guardian when you get nominated it well fantasy. I hope Biden picks the youngest and most liberal black women he can I really have no problem with that just like I accept I stuck with Thomas who clearly was not the profound jurist in the US on the day he was nominated.
    Conon, you make some interesting points similar to other posters.
    Indeed, the appointments are political. One of the jobs of the PotUS and the senate is to appoint judges. Furthermore, this president has been clear that he will promote a black woman to the SC. People voting for him knew that.

    If we go to questionable politicking we have to look no further than the USA senate obstructing Obama's candidate for a year based on ??? when they just wanted to say "nah, we prefer to give our guy the job to appoint a judge."


    Unfortunately, what you say about the judge selection not being meritocratic but political is true.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
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  10. #130

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I am not running the simulations again to show you too why it requires pro-male bias to promote 75% male candidates. Suffice to say that despite 75% being close to 70%, the number of promotions is large enough for 5% to require bias.
    For the reasons noted above, the numbers do not show a necessary "pro-male bias" on the part of the administration. It could be demonstrated that there was historic bias affecting the pool of candidates, but that would not be the fault of the administration at the point of selection.



  11. #131
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    For the reasons noted above, the numbers do not show a necessary "pro-male bias" on the part of the administration. It could be demonstrated that there was historic bias affecting the pool of candidates, but that would not be the fault of the administration at the point of selection.
    For the reasons noted above, yes, they do. A 1.5% or 2% deviation could be explained in 245 picks. A 5%-7% deviation nope. We're not talking "1 in the 10 billions" chance here but even "1 in 20" is practically zero for our purposes.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  12. #132

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    For the reasons noted above, yes, they do. A 1.5% or 2% deviation could be explained in 245 picks. A 5%-7% deviation nope. We're not talking "1 in the 10 billions" chance here but even "1 in 20" is practically zero for our purposes.
    The argument continues to assume that the pool of competitive candidates was gender balanced. Even cursory research shows that this likely isn't true (~2/3 state judges are men, for instance).



  13. #133
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    It's not all society and culture over genes. There are differences.
    There are differences; the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis is driven by the brain.But take a look, sex differentiation in the human social brain may often be of degree, not of kind. Read the whole article, or jump to the conclusion.10,000 social brains: Sex differentiation in human brain anatomy

    There is a myth of staying at home mother.Stay-at-Home Moms Report More Depression, Sadness, Anger



    --
    Biden picked a black women, and Trump picked right wing judges...."We’re going to have great judges, conservative, all picked by the Federalist Society,” he said.
    No one questioned Trump's choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    .judge selection..political
    But in the end it is always a political choice. Unlike US, Europe picks top judges with bipartisan approval to to create ideologically balanced high courts
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 29, 2022 at 04:39 PM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  14. #134
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    The argument continues to assume that the pool of competitive candidates was gender balanced. Even cursory research shows that this likely isn't true (~2/3 state judges are men, for instance).
    No the argument DOES NOT assume the pool of competitive candidates was gender balanced. The argument assumes the pool was 70% men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    There is a myth of staying at home mother.Stay-at-Home Moms Report More Depression, Sadness, Anger

    That is a great, and unfortunate find.
    60000 mothers interviewed. That's the kind of social research we need.

    "Gallup looked separately at non-employed moms who are looking for work and those who are not looking -- to distinguish between those who may not be employed because of circumstance rather than by choice -- and both groups are more likely to report anger, sadness, and depression than are employed moms. It is also important to note that these findings are not related to age -- that is, even when controlling for age, stay-at-home moms are emotionally worse off than employed moms."
    Weeeell... hard to argue with 60,000 people studies.
    Last edited by alhoon; January 30, 2022 at 02:37 AM.
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  15. #135

    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No the argument DOES NOT assume the pool of competitive candidates was gender balanced. The argument assumes the pool was 70% men.
    I don't know where that assumption comes from. Even if I accepted it at face value, the deviation could easily (as noted previously) be accounted for by factors like the candidates' self-promotion or political connections, along with nepotism and/or random selection. And supposing I accepted the entire argument at face value, we're still talking about alleged bias which is so small as to be functionally inconsequential (something like 7 judges).



  16. #136
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    I don't know where that assumption comes from. Even if I accepted it at face value, the deviation could easily (as noted previously) be accounted for by factors like the candidates' self-promotion or political connections, along with nepotism and/or random selection. And supposing I accepted the entire argument at face value, we're still talking about alleged bias which is so small as to be functionally inconsequential (something like 7 judges).
    I agree it requires a small bias to go from 2/3 to 75%. But it DOES show bias. Small bias is still bias.

    You can see the equations in my previous posts, about the Binomial distribution etc. Feel free to do the equations and you will see that it is a very small chance to get 75% judges out of a 70% population in 245 picks.
    I don't know the exact numbers of male judge picks by Trump, just the rough 75%, so I don't know the k in the equation, just the n.

    You are talking about self-promotion and political connections. Weeeeell... those apply to female judges too.
    If female judges are less politically connected that is part of the bias.

    The entire discussion I had with the progressives pretending that Biden's picks didn't show bias can be applied to the OTHER side of the coin, with Trump's male judges.
    Last edited by alhoon; January 30, 2022 at 07:02 AM.
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  17. #137
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    The entire discussion I had with the progressives pretending that Biden's picks didn't show bias can be applied to the OTHER side of the coin, with Trump's male judges.
    Umm real problem I have alhoon since I don't think judges are mythical creatures handed out by Plato I am perfectly fine with a biased selection. I has a liberal Democrat want Biden to pick the most liberal and youngest candidate he can and if he needs to tick boxes with his base fine as well. The Bias I would really like to see dropped is picking the under-qualified end product of the Ivy league's overrated MS/MA programs called law schools (and with the hilariously appended doctor to their degree) to sit as the life long pale pretend shadows of Plato's Guardians. You get a platoon of law clerks and scads of administrative assistants its not really clear to me we need lawyers at all. I mean have you considered why exactly a body that makes law (and it does) has no PhDs on it no MDs no Engineers no skilled trades men, no Economists, No 3 or 4th generation family farmer ... Only one person to have served in the military (and he is retiring).
    Last edited by conon394; January 31, 2022 at 07:28 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #138
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Umm real problem I have alhoon since I don't think judges are mythical creatures handed out by Plato I am perfectly fine with a biased selection. I has a liberal Democrat want Biden to pick the most liberal and youngest candidate he can and if he needs to tick boxes with his base fine as well. The Bias I would really like to see dropped is picking the under-qualified end product of the Ivy league's overrated MS/MA programs called law schools (and with the hilariously appended doctor to their degree) to sit as the life long pale pretend shadows of Plato's Guardians. You get a platoon of law clerks and scads of administrative assistants its not really clear to me we need lawyers at all. I mean have you considered why exactly a body that makes law (and it does) has no PhDs on it no MDs no Engineers no skilled trades men, no Economists, No 3 or 4th generation family farmer ... Only one person to have served in the military (and he is retiring).
    That's a point of view that I don't necessarily disagree with.

    What gets me riled is people denying the bias showed by the presidents in their picks.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  19. #139
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Who's responsible for gender roles? Biology or Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    That's a point of view that I don't necessarily disagree with.

    What gets me riled is people denying the bias showed by the presidents in their picks.
    I think we agree is that all picks are political and so is the court the mythology around is the annoying part. Like I said what I find really annoying is reading the Bios of every current justice you have empaneled a life long guardians who all have basically the same narrow education and are surrounded by people with the the same education. They really could yous a retirement age. I very agree I expect a pick at any level to be political no different than any other appointed position. The key factor being only if you hold the senate and your majority is firm.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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