The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

[Infidel144]

Are we pretending that swarthy is not a descriptive word used on elves already existing within the central part of middle earth?

Where? The only descriptions of any elves being "swarthy" come from the earliest writings and involve the (far) west of Middle-earth, that is Beleriand, which I think I quoted earlier.
I am not recalling any particular physical description of Elves in the 'central part' of Middle-earth, unless it be from the Awakening and Great March.

If we go to the south east where Dorwinion is, then it becomes even more likely that Sindar elves mixed with the creepy black half troll men in the south east.

Dorwinion is not in the south east, but rather in the eastern part of western Middle-earth, which is no where near where the black men who are described in RotK as being from, that is Far Harad.
The Sindar, as such, originate in Beleriand, and after the fall of Beleriand, some are described as migrating far as the eastern parts of western Middle-earth (i.e. Lorien, Greenwood, maybe Dorwinion, I don't quite recall, possibly the Belfalas). I do not recall mentions of the Sindar deciding to set up in Far Harad. But, in the event, the Sindar are Eldar and so come under the 'three unions', and thus 'mixing' (if you are referring to interbreeding) with men would be unlikely.

[PointOfViewGun]

Strange. I know of at least two times Tolkien "wrote about pointy ears".
Once in Letters:
"I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)."
Letter 27, describing Hobbits.
And in The Etymologies:
"LAS(1)- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion [KWEL]. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].)"
HoMe 5

Hostetter and Wynne confirm the bracketed reading to be 'human', in VT 45 Addenda and Corrigenda to the Etymologies.

"slightly pointed and `elvish`" description doesn't really tell us that elvish adjective is used to describe pointiness of an ear. Quite the opposite. It tells us that he was describing something other than pointiness. For the second part the "human" word is not something Tolkien wrote but what others have assumed. He never finished that note. As dubious as they are these are what you could come up with. It leaves the fact that Tolkien never described elves as having pointy ears in his stories.

[Infidel144]

"slightly pointed and `elvish`" description doesn't really tell us that elvish adjective is used to describe pointiness of an ear. Quite the opposite. It tells us that he was describing something other than pointiness. For the second part the "human" word is not something Tolkien wrote but what others have assumed. He never finished that note. As dubious as they are these are what you could come up with. It leaves the fact that Tolkien never described elves as having pointy ears in his stories.

Weak, Setekh.
Your assertion was, and I quote:
"He also never wrote about pointy ears..."

I just supplied two quotes from Tolkien in which he wrote about 'pointy ears', once in Letters, when describing Hobbits, and once in the Etymologies with reference to Quendian ears.
It is not an unfinished note. It is a complete entry. Your attempts at eisegesis simply show you are utterly ignorant of the Etymologies. Had you some basic knowledge of them, there is a much better case to be made, for what you are attempting argue. Instead of issuing your cope ridden denials...

[conon394]

I do not recall mentions of the Sindar deciding to set up in Far Harad. But, in the event, the Sindar are Eldar and so come under the 'three unions', and thus 'mixing' (if you are referring to interbreeding) with men would be unlikely.

On the east JRRT never tells of what happened happened the elves who never followed the Valar call to go west. But also on the possibly the Belfalas.... My recollection JRRT has at least two suggestion of elves in what is eventually Gondor and of 'half elves'. Legalos as I remember says he is certain the knights of Dol Amroth have eleven blood. And in his one of unfinished woks on the second age he has what becomes clear is a character who is the decedent of a captive elf taken when her migrating people where ambushed. And while he does not have the geography nailed down but it the story implies he runs into Numenorians who are the faithful sort that kinda locks in the geography.

[z3n]

Where? The only descriptions of any elves being "swarthy" come from the earliest writings and involve the (far) west of Middle-earth, that is Beleriand, which I think I quoted earlier.
I am not recalling any particular physical description of Elves in the 'central part' of Middle-earth, unless it be from the Awakening and Great March.


Dorwinion is not in the south east, but rather in the eastern part of western Middle-earth, which is no where near where the black men who are described in RotK as being from, that is Far Harad.
The Sindar, as such, originate in Beleriand, and after the fall of Beleriand, some are described as migrating far as the eastern parts of western Middle-earth (i.e. Lorien, Greenwood, maybe Dorwinion, I don't quite recall, possibly the Belfalas). I do not recall mentions of the Sindar deciding to set up in Far Harad. But, in the event, the Sindar are Eldar and so come under the 'three unions', and thus 'mixing' (if you are referring to interbreeding) with men would be unlikely.

What? Since when did we have a certain location for where Dorwinion is? All we know is that it's in the south (and probably east), Tolkien never definitively stated where or finished figuring out where it was. There's a map created by a woman illustrator named Pauline Baynes who placed Dorwinion herself (she was simply told to include the name Dorwinion and given free reign as to where), but as per John Rateliff's notes about the geography of middle earth; Tolkien himself never finished creating the geography or deciding where to place Dorwinion. In fact, when The Hobbit was published, Tolkien wasn't sure where the River Running led to, except “Dorwinion in the south”.

Secondly, Dorwinion is decidedly Sindarian in construct, that's not really up for debate; so yes, it was Sindarian enough for them to name Dorwinion a Sindar name. Again, as per John Rateliff; John points out that Tolkien himself translated the name Dorwinion as “Young-land Country”, specifically stating that it is indeed a Sindarin name. And it's easy to tell as per the prefix "Dor" being Sindar for land.

Where? The only descriptions of any elves being "swarthy" come from the earliest writings and involve the (far) west of Middle-earth, that is Beleriand, which I think I quoted earlier.
I am not recalling any particular physical description of Elves in the 'central part' of Middle-earth, unless it be from the Awakening and Great March.

So you're saying all the swarthy elves died after Beleriand sunk? No way any of them made it out, thankfully we were only left with the white elves. In my view, by the second age swarthy elves had moved toward the center of middle earth after Beleriand was destroyed, sure some stayed in the western central parts but many moved to the far east. Swarthy elves would also begin moving back west from Dorwinion.

Generally the argument that no swarthy elves existed seems pretty weak from my perspective.

[Infidel144]

On the east JRRT never tells of what happened happened the elves who never followed the Valar call to go west.

He does, depending on the variant, many came in to the westlands. Whether any went to Far Harad is not said, as far as I can recall. In the event, these are not Sindar, who are Beleriandic Eldar.
These would be Avari.

But also on the possibly the Belfalas.... My recollection JRRT has at least two suggestion of elves in what is eventually Gondor and of 'half elves'. Legalos as I remember says he is certain the knights of Dol Amroth have eleven blood.

Legolas is speaking to Imrahil:
"At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. 'Hail, lord!' he said. 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.
''So it is said in the lore of my land,' said the Prince; 'yet never has one of the fair folk been seen there for years beyond count. And I marvel to see one here now in the midst of sorrow and war. What do you seek?'""
RotK, The Last Debate

There are two versions noted in UT:
"The legend of the prince's line was that one of the earliest fathers had wedded an Elf-maiden: in some versions it was indeed (evidently improbably) said to have been Nimrodel herself. In other tales, and more probably, it was one of Nimrodel's companions who was lost in the upper mountain glens."
UT, HG&C
The companion is Mithrellas:
"According to the same traditions Galador was the son of Imrazór the Númenórean, who dwelt in Belfalas, and the Elven-lady Mithrellas. She was one of the companions of Nimrodel, among many of the Elves that fled to the coast about the year 1980 of the Third Age, when evil arose in Moria; and Nimrodel and her maidens stayed in the wooded hills, and were lost. But in this tale it is said that Imrazór harboured Mithrellas, and took her to wife."
op.cit.
Neither are Sindarin. And, evidently, Mithrellas is of Avarin origin. Hence not Elda.
There is said to have been a Silvan settlement and port there at one point:
"As Legolas' mention of Nimrodel shows, there was ancient Elvish port near Dol Amroth, and a small settlement of Silvan Elves there from Lórien."
op.cit.
(in some version, Galadriel and Celeborn dwelt there for a time)
But yeah, not Sindarin, and not near Far Harad.

And in his one of unfinished woks on the second age he has what becomes clear is a character who is the decedent of a captive elf taken when her migrating people where ambushed. And while he does not have the geography nailed down but it the story implies he runs into Numenorians who are the faithful sort that kinda locks in the geography.

Are you attempting to refer to Tal Elmar?
And I don't understand your second sentence.

[Araval]

What? Since when did we have a certain location for where Dorwinion is? All we know is that it's in the south (and probably east), Tolkien never definitively stated where or finished figuring out where it was. There's a map created by a woman illustrator named Pauline Baynes who placed Dorwinion herself (she was simply told to include the name Dorwinion and given free reign as to where), but as per John Rateliff's notes about the geography of middle earth; Tolkien himself never finished creating the geography or deciding where to place Dorwinion. In fact, when The Hobbit was published, Tolkien wasn't sure where the River Running led to, except “Dorwinion in the south”.

Tolkien pointed the location of Dorwinion to Bayens himself: https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/...h-transcribed/

[Infidel144]

hit wrong button prematurely

[Infidel144]

What? Since when did we have a certain location for where Dorwinion is? All we know is that it's in the south (and probably east), Tolkien never definitively stated where or finished figuring out where it was. There's a map created by a woman illustrator named Pauline Baynes who placed Dorwinion herself (she was simply told to include the name Dorwinion and given free reign as to where), but as per John Rateliff's notes about the geography of middle earth; Tolkien himself never finished creating the geography or deciding where to place Dorwinion. In fact, when The Hobbit was published, Tolkien wasn't sure where the River Running led to, except “Dorwinion in the south”.

As Araval said:
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/...h-transcribed/

(This map, as I recall, is a fairly recent find).

By the by, Tolkien offered some extensive criticism of Baynes work, perhaps you can find something that from him saying Dorwinion is in the wrong place.
And my '65 Ballantine FotR map has the River-running ending in the Sea of Rhun.
Have you read HoTH?

Secondly, Dorwinion is decidedly Sindarian in construct, that's not really up for debate; so yes, it was Sindarian enough for them to name Dorwinion a Sindar name. Again, as per John Rateliff; John points out that Tolkien himself translated the name Dorwinion as “Young-land Country”, specifically stating that it is indeed a Sindarin name. And it's easy to tell as per the prefix "Dor" being Sindar for land.

In addition to what Araval linked to:
"Dorwinion is Sindarin meaning "Young-land country" or Land of Gwinion. (It was probably far south down the River Running, and its Sindarin name a testimony to the spread of Sindarin: in this case expectable since the cultivation of vines was not known originally to the Nandor or Avari."
PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR
Hmmm... Named because Sindarin had spread. Not because the Sindar lived there or founded it.
Of course the River-running is shown to end in the Sea of Rhun Not Far Harad.

So you're saying all the swarthy elves died after Beleriand sunk? No way any of them made it out, thankfully we were only left with the white elves.

Oh, wait, this is the route you want to go.
Can you quote me saying that?
I think what I said was:
"Where? The only descriptions of any elves being "swarthy" come from the earliest writings and involve the (far) west of Middle-earth, that is Beleriand, which I think I quoted earlier."
So where? Provide me quotes from Tolkien about all these swarthy elves you are talking about in the central parts of Middle-earth.
While you are at it, provide me quotes about "all the swarthy elves", should be easy to find.
So far it stands at... hmmm... One. Maeglin. And Tolkien changed the description to fair-skinned.
And even had he not, Maeglin is dead. Died before the sinking of Beleriand. And a Gnome/Noldoli/Noldo/Noldo-Sinda/Noldo-Tatyarin Avar depending on variant.
(as I said Eols history is complex).
And I think I said:
"I am not recalling any particular physical description of Elves in the 'central part' of Middle-earth, unless it be from the Awakening and Great March."
You can help my recollection by providing actual quotes from Tolkien.

In my view, by the second age swarthy elves had moved toward the center of middle earth after Beleriand was destroyed, sure some stayed in the western central parts but many moved to the far east. Swarthy elves would also begin moving back west from Dorwinion.

You have yet to establish "swarthy elves". Quoting Tolkien saying there are these groups of "swarthy elves" dwelling in Beleriand (which would make them Eldar (Noldor/Sindar/Nandorin Laiquendi), rather than Avari, would help.
I'm not interested in your fan-fiction.

Generally the argument that no swarthy elves existed seems pretty weak from my perspective.

Generally I prefer what Tolkien said, over what others claim he says, or their fan-fiction.

[z3n]

As Araval said:
https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/...h-transcribed/

(This map, as I recall, is a fairly recent find).

By the by, Tolkien offered some extensive criticism of Baynes work, perhaps you can find something that from him saying Dorwinion is in the wrong place.
And my '65 Ballantine FotR map has the River-running ending in the Sea of Rhun.
Have you read HoTH?



In addition to what Araval linked to:
"Dorwinion is Sindarin meaning "Young-land country" or Land of Gwinion. (It was probably far south down the River Running, and its Sindarin name a testimony to the spread of Sindarin: in this case expectable since the cultivation of vines was not known originally to the Nandor or Avari."
PE 17, Words, Phrases and Passages in LotR
Hmmm... Named because Sindarin had spread. Not because the Sindar lived there or founded it.
Of course the River-running is shown to end in the Sea of Rhun Not Far Harad.



Oh, wait, this is the route you want to go.
Can you quote me saying that?
I think what I said was:
"Where? The only descriptions of any elves being "swarthy" come from the earliest writings and involve the (far) west of Middle-earth, that is Beleriand, which I think I quoted earlier."
So where? Provide me quotes from Tolkien about all these swarthy elves you are talking about in the central parts of Middle-earth.
While you are at it, provide me quotes about "all the swarthy elves", should be easy to find.
So far it stands at... hmmm... One. Maeglin. And Tolkien changed the description to fair-skinned.
And even had he not, Maeglin is dead. Died before the sinking of Beleriand. And a Gnome/Noldoli/Noldo/Noldo-Sinda/Noldo-Tatyarin Avar depending on variant.
(as I said Eols history is complex).
And I think I said:
"I am not recalling any particular physical description of Elves in the 'central part' of Middle-earth, unless it be from the Awakening and Great March."
You can help my recollection by providing actual quotes from Tolkien.



You have yet to establish "swarthy elves". Quoting Tolkien saying there are these groups of "swarthy elves" dwelling in Beleriand (which would make them Eldar (Noldor/Sindar/Nandorin Laiquendi), rather than Avari, would help.
I'm not interested in your fan-fiction.



Generally I prefer what Tolkien said, over what others claim he says, or their fan-fiction.

Interesting, originally Dorwinion was placed "in the burning south" which implies an area directly next to the ugly black troll men. Also, far as I've seen it's the only place east of Thranduil's Halls to carry a Sindarin name so it would have to be the Avari and Sindar nobles who founded the town (also at one point within The Hobbit it's said the wine at Thranduil's halls is from their elven kinsfolk in the south, i.e. the elves of Dorwinion and distant realms of men). It seems unlikely that no Sindar lived within the only Sindarian named city to the south east of the halls, and that the only elven kinsfolk who lived there were Avari; but I guess it's possible.

Oh, wait, this is the route you want to go .... So far it stands at... hmmm... One. Maeglin. And Tolkien changed the description to fair-skinned.

It seemed like you don't want swarthy elves to exist, but if we examine the passage about Maeglin it makes much ado about how he looked so similar to the Noldor (unlike the other elves apparently), his skin was described as "white"; not fair skinned as you put it. So, the fact that Tolkien had to draw attention to this white skin and how unusually similar he looked to the Noldor seems to leave it open to interpretation as to what colour the other elves had for skin. You're welcome to try and find descriptions of elves other than the Noldor with white skin, far as I'm aware only Maeglin's skin was ever described and his skin was swarthy at one point, and then he was explicitly compared to the Noldor.

Honestly it's pretty absurd that people accept walking tree people, fire breathing dragons, but swarthy elves are impossible and an affront to Tolkien (meanwhile he included a swarthy skinned elf...).

You have yet to establish "swarthy elves". Quoting Tolkien saying there are these groups of "swarthy elves" dwelling in Beleriand (which would make them Eldar (Noldor/Sindar/Nandorin Laiquendi), rather than Avari, would help.
I'm not interested in your fan-fiction.

You're welcome to try to find groups of white skinned non-Noldor elves? I haven't really looked too hard but I am only aware of the Noldor specifically being described as white skinned, other types of elves don't seem to have any skin colour specified aside from our friend Maeglin who was described as swarthy first, then rewritten to be white skinned like a Noldor.

[Infidel144]

Interesting, originally Dorwinion was placed "in the burning south" which implies an area directly next to the ugly black troll men.

Well, yes it does seem to be the case that the "burning South" was the original location of Dorwinion (LoB, LCH 1).
Though I am not seeing quote from Tolkien from you, to support that assertion.
Are you going to supply a quote from Tolkien to support your assertion or just make it up as you go along?
And no, unless you can supply a quote from Tolkien, it does not imply an area next to the "ugly black troll men" (why do you think black men are ugly?), not least because what you are calling "ugly black troll men" (LotR, Bk. V, Ch. 6) had not been invented yet, and would not be invented for another ca.20 years. Unless you can provide a quote, from Tolkien, showing otherwise.
Perhaps even more interestingly, the next iteration of Dorwinion has it located in Tol Eressea:

"Here endeth The Silmarillion: which is drawn out in brief from those songs and histories which are yet sung and told by the fading Elves, and (more clearly and fully) by the vanished Elves that dwell now upon the Lonely Isle, Tol Eressea, whither few mariners of Men have ever come, save once or twice in a long age when some man of Earendel's race hath passed beyond the lands of mortal sight and seen the glimmer of the lamps upon the quays of Avallon, and smelt afar the undying flowers in the meads of Dorwinion. Of whom was Eriol one, that men named AElfwine, and he alone returned and brought tidings of Cortirion to the Hither Lands."
LRoW, QS, Conclusion

Look at that a quote, from Tolkien, supporting my assertion...
And again, have you read HoTH?

Also, far as I've seen it's the only place east of Thranduil's Halls to carry a Sindarin name

Strange. I sort of, kind of, thought that Erebor was east of Thranduil's Halls and I also kind of sort of suspect Erebor is Sindarin (as S. developed).
Let's look at the map Araval so helpfully linked to.
Hmm... Sea of Rhun and Rhun, I think both of those are places, but I may be mistaken. I also vaguely recall that 'rhun' is a Sindarin word meaning 'east'. I could go further south on the Map and see Barad Dur and Minas Morgul. Both kinda look to be east of Thranduil's Halls, and I think those are Sindarin names as well.

Of course, when the name Dorwinion was first invented, and even when the Hobbit was first written, it was not Sindarin at all. It was Gnomish/Noldorin. It being Sindarin is a relatively late invention (Tolkien, during the course of writing LotR, decided to change the Noldorin language to Sindarin).

so it would have to be the Avari and Sindar nobles who founded the town (also at one point within The Hobbit it's said the wine at Thranduil's halls is from their elven kinsfolk in the south, i.e. the elves of Dorwinion and distant realms of men).

Odd. I don't see you supplying any quotes from Tolkien to support your assertions. Can you supply a quote from Tolkien to support your assertions?
I am vaguely familiar with the passages in The Hobbit, but I am having some difficulty recalling Tolkien referring to Dorwinion as a "town" or saying it was founded by Avari or Sindar nobles (since Sindar and Avari do not technically exist in The Hobbit itself, it may be difficult) though later writings may lead to that conclusion). I also do not recall Tolkien saying that the kinfolk of the Elves of Mirkwood are Elves of Dorwinion, or in fact that Dorwinion is peopled by Elves.
Perhaps you can supply quotes from The Hobbit wherein Tolkien states those things.
Until then, your "i.e." is out of place, and you are indulging in fanfiction.

It seems unlikely that no Sindar lived within the only Sindarian named city to the south east of the halls, and that the only elven kinsfolk who lived there were Avari; but I guess it's possible.

Dorwinion has evolved from a place to a town, and is now a city...
The fanfiction continues...
I have some recollection of Tolkien referring to great gardens, meads, maybe fields, in reference to Dorwinion.
But not a town or city (though I suppose one could take the reference to "Avallon", i.e. the Tol Eressea, which would after a time develop into Avallone, the city or town on Tol Eressea...).
I may have even provided some quote or another...

And Tolkien, has already stated that the name was due to the spread of the language Sindarin.

It seemed like you don't want swarthy elves to exist,

So you're saying you can't quote me saying that. You just pathetically and with willful malice decided to impute racism (i.e. indulging in more of your fanfic), rather than, say, providing quotes from Tolkien to support your position.

but if we examine the passage about Maeglin it makes much ado about how he looked so similar to the Noldor (unlike the other elves apparently), his skin was described as "white"; not fair skinned as you put it. So, the fact that Tolkien had to draw attention to this white skin and how unusually similar he looked to the Noldor seems to leave it open to interpretation as to what colour the other elves had for skin. You're welcome to try and find descriptions of elves other than the Noldor with white skin, far as I'm aware only Maeglin's skin was ever described and his skin was swarthy at one point, and then he was explicitly compared to the Noldor.

Yeah, I'm not seeing any quotes from Tolkien regarding these groups "swarthy elves" your fanfiction would have.
Until then, its just your fan-fiction. Your fan-fiction is not relevant to Tolkien's legendarium.

Honestly it's pretty absurd that people accept walking tree people, fire breathing dragons, but swarthy elves are impossible and an affront to Tolkien (meanwhile he included a swarthy skinned elf...).

"Honestly"? So you were being 'dishonest' before but are being 'honest' now?
Or are you just attempting to avoid supplying statements from Tolkien that confirm your, at this point, fan-fiction?

You're welcome to try to find groups of white skinned non-Noldor elves? I haven't really looked too hard but I am only aware of the Noldor specifically being described as white skinned, other types of elves don't seem to have any skin colour specified aside from our friend Maeglin who was described as swarthy first, then rewritten to be white skinned like a Noldor.

You, zen, are the one making assertions. Hence you are the one who needs to supply quotes to support your assertions.
Attempting to shift BoP does not cut it. Fanfic does not cut it.

[z3n]

Unless you can provide a quote, from Tolkien, showing otherwise.

I wasn't aware that some people considered the idea of troll scales, white eyes, and red tongues beautiful, personally I think scales on a person would be pretty ugly but to each their own?

Perhaps even more interestingly, the next iteration of Dorwinion has it located in Tol Eressea

The final iteration again has Dorwinion placed in the south though within the Hobbit, and even the map has it in a south eastern direction.
There is no city the south with elven kinsfolk who produced wine in their vineyards other than Dorwinion, we only know of Dorwinion as the wine producing city in that area; there were no vineyards in Mirkwood and the wine barrels were floated south along the river toward the south toward Dorwinion.

The fact that the barrels were deliberately floated on the river implies an area outside of Mirkwood, and wine is a luxury good requiring a settled area with vineyards for many years. Tolkien being a gardener and fan of forests would know this. So what other elven kinsfolk living in a city rich enough to have vineyards and located on a river to the south am I missing here? It's obvious it's Dorwinion. The protagonist in the Hobbit was written like other protagonists, unfortunately obtuse and ignorant of the world.

but Dorwinion is Sindarin meaning "Young-land country" or Land of Gwinion. (It was probably far south down the River Running, and its Sindarin name a testimony to the spread of Sindarin: in this case expectable since the cultivation of vines was not known originally to the Nandor or Avari

Strange. I sort of, kind of, thought that Erebor was east of Thranduil's Halls and I also kind of sort of suspect Erebor is Sindarin (as S. developed).
Let's look at the map Araval so helpfully linked to.
Hmm... Sea of Rhun and Rhun, I think both of those are places, but I may be mistaken. I also vaguely recall that 'rhun' is a Sindarin word meaning 'east'. I could go further south on the Map and see Barad Dur and Minas Morgul. Both kinda look to be east of Thranduil's Halls, and I think those are Sindarin names as well.

Apparently I should have pedantically specified city at first, you'll notice that I said, "It seems unlikely that no Sindar lived within the only Sindarian named city to the south east of the halls".

Also it's worth noting that Harad is a Sindar word, so apparently they had enough contact with the men of the south to name them.

You, zen, are the one making assertions. Hence you are the one who needs to supply quotes to support your assertions.
Attempting to shift BoP does not cut it. Fanfic does not cut it.

So in other words, you looked, but couldn't find anything indicating white skin for non-Noldor elves. Fascinating. That ends this thread of discussion it seems!

[Infidel144]

I wasn't aware that some people considered the idea of troll scales, white eyes, and red tongues beautiful, personally I think scales on a person would be pretty ugly but to each their own?

Scales? What scales? I nearly think your imagination is working overtime.
I'd suggest providing a quote to establish "troll scales" on the black men from Far Harad, but you don't actually seem to have the materials necessary.

The final iteration again has Dorwinion placed in the south though within the Hobbit, and even the map has it in a south eastern direction.

You were earlier, it seems, arguing otherwise ("If we go to the south east where Dorwinion is, then it becomes even more likely that Sindar elves mixed with the creepy black half troll men in the south east." i.e Far Harad) while I in fact had said "Dorwinion is not in the south east, but rather in the eastern part of western Middle-earth". You then continued on your line citing earlier variants (while being obviously unfamiliar with the actual texts, have only picked up some words from Tolkien Gateway) and trying to dismiss the Baynes map.
At least now you seem to accept that the land of Dorwinion is near the Sea of Rhun.

There is no city the south with elven kinsfolk who produced wine in their vineyards other than Dorwinion, we only know of Dorwinion as the wine producing city in that area; there were no vineyards in Mirkwood and the wine barrels were floated south along the river toward the south toward Dorwinion.

City, city. I do think I requested a quote from Tolkien saying that Dorwinion was a city. The very name itself does not suggest Dorwinion, “Young-land Country”, is a 'city',

The fact that the barrels were deliberately floated on the river implies an area outside of Mirkwood, and wine is a luxury good requiring a settled area with vineyards for many years. Tolkien being a gardener and fan of forests would know this. So what other elven kinsfolk living in a city rich enough to have vineyards and located on a river to the south am I missing here? It's obvious it's Dorwinion. The protagonist in the Hobbit was written like other protagonists, unfortunately obtuse and ignorant of the world.

Many words to cover for your objective failure to establish that Dorwinion is a city.

Apparently I should have pedantically specified city at first, you'll notice that I said, "It seems unlikely that no Sindar lived within the only Sindarian named city to the south east of the halls"

Apparently, you should have established from Tolkien, rather than your imagination, that Dorwinion, the Young-land Country, is actually a city, rather than the name of the land near the Sea of Rhun, where some particularly potent wine came from.

Also it's worth noting that Harad is a Sindar word, so apparently they had enough contact with the men of the south to name them.

It is further worth noting that 'harad' (har-, harn, harad) is a Sindarin word meaning 'south' (derived from the root khyar-, 'left hand' (for the Elves directions started with west rather than north).).
Imagine name lands in the south, South. And Harad is not the name of the people dwelling there, they are typically referred to as Haradrim ( rim- crowd, host, people). Oh my goodness, someone was so familiar with the South, that it was named South, and people clalled people dwelling there, Southerners.
And, of course, Sindarin was sort of a lingua fanca among the Eldar and the Dunedain.

Not that this anywhere near establishes that Dorwinion is a city...
Where is that quote?

So in other words, you looked, but couldn't find anything indicating white skin for non-Noldor elves. Fascinating. That ends this thread of discussion it seems!

(Still trying to cover for your inability, by trying to shift BoP)
I.e. You are unable to provide any quotes to back up your assertion about these groups of "swarthy elves" your imagination has fixated on.
A text book case eisegesis...

[z3n]

Scales? What scales? I nearly think your imagination is working overtime.

Scales aside, even though we know they obviously had scales or they wouldn't have been called troll-like; have you ever read or heard the word troll being used in a good way? It's always meant ugly, from Beowulf until now.

I'm a bit puzzled why you're arguing that half-trolls wouldn't be ugly. But if it makes you feel better, we can pretend they were more fair than the elves even though it's obvious trolls were scaly, and ugly; half trolls would be half as ugly but still ugly.

City, city. I do think I requested a quote from Tolkien saying that Dorwinion was a city. The very name itself does not suggest Dorwinion, “Young-land Country”, is a 'city',

Oh? What does Gondor suggest to you then? Gondor means land of stone, in Sindar. It seems to me the very name of Gondor itself does not suggest "Land of Stone", is a 'city'.

You were earlier, it seems, arguing otherwise

Interesting, now I'm arguing otherwise when I point out contradictions. I don't think anything was absolutely certain about Dorwinion, except that it had elves, wine and a city capable of protecting vineyards rich enough to produce the best wine and gardens in the world.

Not that this anywhere near establishes that Dorwinion is a city...
Where is that quote?

Alright, I wasn't aware that I'd have to explain the workings of an agrarian society to you but here we go. First of all, an agrarian society is a settled society which farms land. Vineyards in particular are an unnecessary investment which produces a luxury good not integral to basic survival needs and demonstrate a surplus of labour and a taste for the finer things in life. Also, since this was a trade the elves of Dorwinion would have received something in return. We know that trade creates a nexus point, a gathering point if you will, due to the abundance of goods within an area. This in turn grows a town which grows as the flow of goods increases or stays the same.

Dorwinion was located next to a lake but still needed the irrigation necessary in such an arid climate, this not only involved organization but also planning and a great deal of work to dig the trenches (or perhaps aqueducts) necessary to water the vineyards. Social castes with the education must have also been a requirement to undertake engineering feats like this. Also remember, this is all to produce the finest wine in the entirety of middle earth; outcompeting the vineyards of men. Agrarian societies with fast trade routes always flourished, and water in ancient times was the fastest method of travel and trade available.

Tolkien's method within the Hobbit of transporting the wine along a river (from Dorwinion to Thranduil's Halls) is not made up either; Tolkien appears to have researched the process which Babylon famous for its Hanging Gardens (interestingly Dorwinion was also famous for its gardens), had its wine sent. Wine was sent along the river during the Uruk era of Babylon in an exercise of trade. However, again, only the upper caste of a city based agrarian civilization enjoyed a luxury good like wine. Farming practices also require a sedentary lifestyle, and due to the amount of work involved it would take quite a fair amount of elves to produce excess.

We also know that agrarian societies with a sedentary lifestyle needed to protect their land and by extension crops, generally speaking walls were the preferred method for these societies. Within the walls people would build homes or shops to trade with each other; indeed, we already know trade occurred and had to have a nexus point. So it's pretty easy to connect the dots; it would be a river or lake port city.

(Still trying to cover for your inability, by trying to shift BoP)

When did I ever say otherwise? I pointed out that swarthy elves did exist originally. It's on you to prove all elves were white.

[Infidel144]

Scales aside, even though we know they obviously had scales or they wouldn't have been called troll-like; have you ever read or heard the word troll being used in a good way? It's always meant ugly, from Beowulf until now.

And do "we" know that black men out of Far Harad had scales because Tolkien said so? No quote from you. So No.
Ah... "we" know that because your imagination is working overtime and you are reading into the text, not out of it.

I'm a bit puzzled why you're arguing that half-trolls wouldn't be ugly. But if it makes you feel better, we can pretend they were more fair than the elves even though it's obvious trolls were scaly, and ugly; half trolls would be half as ugly but still ugly.

More of you reading into the text. You literally think that the black men out of Far Harad were literal half man half troll. Tolkien does not say that.

Oh? What does Gondor suggest to you then? Gondor means land of stone, in Sindar. It seems to me the very name of Gondor itself does not suggest "Land of Stone", is a 'city'.

What?
Produce a quote, from Tolkien, saying that Dorwinion is a city.
Your imagination and fanfic will not work.
Tolkien says, not zen.

Or are you now agreeing that Dorwinion is not a city, but rather a land.

Interesting, now I'm arguing otherwise when I point out contradictions. I don't think anything was absolutely certain about Dorwinion, except that it had elves, wine and a city capable of protecting vineyards rich enough to produce the best wine and gardens in the world.

You have not produced a quote from Tolkien saying that Dorwinion has elves, is a city (or has a city for that matter).
Zen's Fanfic and Imagination=0, nada, nothing, meaningless.

Alright, I wasn't aware that I'd have to explain the workings of an agrarian society to you but here we go. First of all, an agrarian society is a settled society which farms land. Vineyards in particular are an unnecessary investment which produces a luxury good not integral to basic survival needs and demonstrate a surplus of labour and a taste for the finer things in life. Also, since this was a trade the elves of Dorwinion would have received something in return. We know that trade creates a nexus point, a gathering point if you will, due to the abundance of goods within an area. This in turn grows a town which grows as the flow of goods increases or stays the same.

Dorwinion was located next to a lake but still needed the irrigation necessary in such an arid climate, this not only involved organization but also planning and a great deal of work to dig the trenches (or perhaps aqueducts) necessary to water the vineyards. Social castes with the education must have also been a requirement to undertake engineering feats like this. Also remember, this is all to produce the finest wine in the entirety of middle earth; outcompeting the vineyards of men. Agrarian societies with fast trade routes always flourished, and water in ancient times was the fastest method of travel and trade available.

Tolkien's method within the Hobbit of transporting the wine along a river (from Dorwinion to Thranduil's Halls) is not made up either; Tolkien appears to have researched the process which Babylon famous for its Hanging Gardens (interestingly Dorwinion was also famous for its gardens), had its wine sent. Wine was sent along the river during the Uruk era of Babylon in an exercise of trade. However, again, only the upper caste of a city based agrarian civilization enjoyed a luxury good like wine. Farming practices also require a sedentary lifestyle, and due to the amount of work involved it would take quite a fair amount of elves to produce excess.

We also know that agrarian societies with a sedentary lifestyle needed to protect their land and by extension crops, generally speaking walls were the preferred method for these societies. Within the walls people would build homes or shops to trade with each other; indeed, we already know trade occurred and had to have a nexus point. So it's pretty easy to connect the dots; it would be a river or lake port city.

Lots more words to avoid providing a quote from Tolkien saying that Dorwinion is a city.
All irrelevant to your assertion that Dorwinion is a city.
Quote from Tolkien, to prove your assertion.
(By the by, Tolkien did actually write on Elven economics.)

When did I ever say otherwise? I pointed out that swarthy elves did exist originally. It's on you to prove all elves were white.

At this point you "pointing out" something, or anything, is irrelevant.
You need to quote Tolkien, not your imagination.
There has been exactly one "swarthy elf" provided via a Tolkien quote. Meglin,. And Tolkien changed that.
Either you can provide the quote(s) from Tolkien (relevant), or the ramblings of your imagination (which is irrelevant to Tolkien's mythology) will continue to be dismissed.

[Cyclops]

Are we debating if Tolkien was a racist? Seriously?

No seriously though by today's standards Tolkien was a bigot with prejudices against the Irish, black people and East Asians, and his ideas about women were very much of his day. In his own day he was also a learned professor, an expert on languages and a supreme fantasist. I like to enjoy him for the latter.

If we can't change stuff at all then all Tolkien media to date outside some Audiobooks and a few illustrations is trash. Actually I think thats pretty much true. I like Jackson because he had a crack, but some of the changes he made....WHY? Why is Aragorn so spineless? Only a great performance by a truly talented actor stopped the part from being a complete deal breaker. I mean I know, the Hollywood play book say "eVeRy MaJoR cHaRaCtEr NeEdS a StOrY aRc!" yeah an 80 year old is going to undergo a significant character shift from not wanting to do the mission to doing it anyway, then wanting to do it but abandoning it. And then he says "lets hunt some orc!" like Grandpa Simpson hauling ass to Lollapalooza.

[z3n]

Tolkien does not say that.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of The Hobbit, it's not Tolkien's story, instead Bilbo is the author of There and Back Again, A Hobbit’s Journey. And this tale is part of the Red Book of Westmarch which Tolkien "found" and translated.

So the point of view and original writing is from Bilbo's perspective and very basic understanding of the world. Bilbo had not in fact been outside much and wasn't very "worldly", so his writing and description isn't really indicative of what Tolkien himself thought.

There has been exactly one "swarthy elf" provided via a Tolkien quote. Meglin,. And Tolkien changed that.

Maeglin was a half breed Noldor (his mother was Noldor, and Noldor had white skin), with Dark Elf (from his father who's skin colour is unknown). So how did Maeglin get his dark skin originally? It would have to be from his fathers side. And there isn't a non noldor elf who was described as white.

[Infidel144]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of The Hobbit, it's not Tolkien's story, instead Bilbo is the author of There and Back Again, A Hobbit’s Journey. And this tale is part of the Red Book of Westmarch which Tolkien "found" and translated.

So the point of view and original writing is from Bilbo's perspective and very basic understanding of the world. Bilbo had not in fact been outside much and wasn't very "worldly", so his writing and description isn't really indicative of what Tolkien himself thought.

Maeglin was a half breed Noldor (his mother was Noldor, and Noldor had white skin), with Dark Elf (from his father who's skin colour is unknown). So how did Maeglin get his dark skin originally? It would have to be from his fathers side. And there isn't a non noldor elf who was described as white.

Still not a single quote from Tolkien.
Zen's FanFic= Dismissed.

[z3n]

Still not a single quote from Tolkien.
Zen's FanFic= Dismissed.

If you want to believe that white people can suddenly be born dark skinned without inheriting the dark skin as a trait, go ahead I suppose.

[Infidel144]

If you want to believe that white people can suddenly be born dark skinned without inheriting the dark skin as a trait, go ahead I suppose.

And with that it looks as though you might have come up with (no doubt unintentionally) the solution to the problem you have.
I mean problem other than not being familiar with Tolkien's writings, and thus unable to move your imaginings to anything beyond fanfic by providing quotes from him.