The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

[Infidel144]

It's there in my translated edition from 1998, except instead of house of Finrod it says house of Finarfin.

Finrod was the original name of Finarfin, and so appeared in earlier editions of LotR. Revised after Tolkien changed the names. At one point, IIRC, it was in there as Finarphin.
So my 65 Balantine has Finrod, While my Houghton Mifflin Collectors (the Red slipcase) has Finarfin.

Checking Hammond and Anderson's Bibliography does not reveal any with the passage missing, nor can I find any mention in Hammond and Scull's errata.

Not every book highlights what edition it is. I gave you enough information.

Does the copy you claim to have, have a title page and verso with publishers information and copywrite and ISBN?
So no, you did not.
What is the ISBN, Setekh?

[z3n]

In LOTR the Avari were the dark elves far as I understood, all doubts about tokenism could have been blown apart by simply using the Avari option. It's possible though the Tolkein estate requested that the Avari not be coopted into being literal dark skinned elves. I don't really see why they would do that, but there is the possibility.

Overall I'm ok with it but I wish they would simply look at preexisting options before possibly inserting tokenism.

[Infidel144]

The Avari/Dark Elves, ie Moriquendi, meaning they had not seen the light of the Two Trees.
In the event, the Avari, dark elves or Moriquendi are not mentioned in LotR ( with the Eldar: Noldor/High Elves and Sindar, and has Silvan Elves) or The Hobbit (which notes Wood, Light, Deep and Sea -elves).
So no rights for Amazon there.

[z3n]

Right but if Tolkienized Dark Elves (taken from the nordic myths) were also dark skinned, that wouldn't really be that surprising or different. They even had their own culture different than the Silvan and Noldor, so it wouldn't be simple tokenism at that point.

It's actually stranger that there are no dark skinned elves, why are there only dark skinned humans, if its possible for half humans and half elves to exist; meaning skin colours and other traits get transferred? It doesn't make sense logically. Also some side commentary, it's a bit funny how he ripped off the name of the barbarian tribe Avar into Avari.

[Infidel144]

The Avari were members of the Tatyar (i.e Noldor) and Nelyar (i.e Teleri/Sindar) that did not set out on the Great March. Avari means Refusers. Technically the Sindar were also Moriquendi/Dark-elves (except Thingol) because they did not see the light of the Two Trees. Has nothing to do with skin color.
As an aside in response to this:
"Middle-earth .... corresponds spiritually to Nordic Europe."
Tolkien wrote:
"Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories."
Letter 294

Also, Avar, pl. Avari has a linguistic development from the roots AB-, ABAR- (refuse, deny), where B mutates into V in Q.
Nothing to do with the Avar tribe.

[z3n]

The Avari were members of the Tatyar (i.e Noldor) and Nelyar (i.e Teleri/Sindar) that did not set out on the Great March. Avari means Refusers. Technically the Sindar were also Moriquendi/Dark-elves (except Thingol) because they did not see the light of the Two Trees. Has nothing to do with skin color.
As an aside in response to this:
"Middle-earth .... corresponds spiritually to Nordic Europe."
Tolkien wrote:
"Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories."
Letter 294

Also, Avar, pl. Avari has a linguistic development from the roots AB-, ABAR- (refuse, deny), where B mutates into V in Q.
Nothing to do with the Avar tribe.

Im not sure why you keep repeating that. I never said it had anything to do with skin color.

However I'm happy to go searching for that, interestingly I found something. Eol had a son who was described as less *fair* and swarthy in skin color. He was in fact a "dark elf".


And to quote this persons research "Eöl's son Maeglin in an early version of the Gondolin story (vol. 2 of the Book of Lost Tales—he's called Meglin there) is described as "less fair...than most of this goodly folk" and even more specifically as "swart," i.e. (relatively) dark-skinned. His other parent, Aredhel (Isfin in this version), is Turgon's sister and called the "White Lady," so logically this darkness of skin must be an inheritance from his father's side. Thus Tolkien does seem to have, at some early point, envisioned this particular "Dark Elf" as dark-complected as well as "evil.""


So in short, it appears the original conception was rather that dark Elves would in fact also be dark skinned. Ironically he later made the "dark elves" whiter, maybe because he decided it looked a bit odd to make all somewhat bad people black.

[Infidel144]

Im not sure why you keep repeating that. I never said it had anything to do with skin color.

My apologies, When you wrote "not be coopted into being literal dark skinned elves", and then wrote "if Tolkienized Dark Elves (taken from the nordic myths) were also dark skinned", followed by "It's actually stranger that there are no dark skinned elves" led me to believe you were referring to the complexion of the Avari/Dark Elves that you brought up.

However I'm happy to go searching for that, interestingly I found something. Eol had a son who was described as less *fair* and swarthy in skin color. He was in fact a "dark elf".

And to quote this persons research "Eöl's son Maeglin in an early version of the Gondolin story (vol. 2 of the Book of Lost Tales—he's called Meglin there) is described as "less fair...than most of this goodly folk" and even more specifically as "swart," i.e. (relatively) dark-skinned. His other parent, Aredhel (Isfin in this version), is Turgon's sister and called the "White Lady," so logically this darkness of skin must be an inheritance from his father's side. Thus Tolkien does seem to have, at some early point, envisioned this particular "Dark Elf" as dark-complected as well as "evil.""

The fuller passage is:
"Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindlymood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true."

Eol is referred to as a or the Dark Elf.
The relatively contemporaneous discription of Eol (Arval) is:
"Isfin and Eol.
Isfin daughter of Fingolma loved from afar by Eol (Arval) of the Mole-kin of the Gnomes. He is strong and in favour with Fingolma and with the Sons of Feanor (to whom he is akin) because he is a leader of the Miners and searches after hidden jewels, but he is illfavoured and Isfin loathes him."
BoLT 2
Noting of course, that the story has not developed. Eol is of the Gnomes (Noldor).
Maeglin does not yet exist. This may have been written before FoG.
Eol's development is complex and shifts through the Legendarium.

In the event, Meglin is not called "Dark Elf". The closest to that is "...he was half of Dark-elfin' blood he was treated as a prince of Fingolfin's line. He was swart but comely, wise and eloquent, and cunning to win men's hearts and minds." (HoMe IV).
Which this person seems to have missed.
Other missed passages:
"There Meglin prince of Gondobar gathered many warriors of dark countenance
and lowering gaze about him, and a ruddy glow shone upon their faces."
BolT 2

"Meglin she sent to Gondolin, and his honour there was high
as the latest seed of Fingolfin, whose glory shall not die;
a lordship he won of the Gnome-folk who quarry deep in the earth,
seeking their ancient jewels; but little was his mirth,
and dark he was and secret and his hair as the strands of night
that are tangled in Taur Fuin* the forest without light.
HoMe III, Lays of Beleriand

(Perhaps interestingly, Luthien actually is called a Dark-elf in the Lay of Leithien:
"Never before
had Celegorm beheld such prey:
What hast thou brought, good Huan say! 2385
Dark-elvish maid, or wraith, or fay?
Not such to hunt we came today.'
"Tis Luthien of Doriath,'
the maiden spake."
op.cit.
This does not refer to complexion.)

the person you quoted, who went on to say this:
"actually, having checked back, the later version of the tale in the Silmarillion flat-out contradicts the version in BoLT. There, Maeglin "[resembles] in face and form rather his kindred of the Noldor" than his father, and "his skin [is] white." So the jury is still out on Eöl's complexion, but his son is specifically no longer "swart," though he also does not look like his father. I'm fascinated that Tolkien changed this (and it goes along with my general feeling that he got more nuanced about depictions of race over time)."

The quotes are correct. However, regarding Eol, the use of "Dark Elf" is as a title:
Dark Elves In the language of Aman all Elves that did not cross the Great Sea were Dark Elves (Moriquendi), and the term is sometimes used thus, 104, 112; when Caranthir called Thingol a Dark Elf it was intended opprobriously, and was especially so, since Thingol had been to Aman 'and was not accounted among the Moriquendi' (56). But in the period of the Exile of the Noldor it was often used of the Elves of Middle-earth other than the Noldor and the Sindar, and is then virtually equivalent to Avari (104, 123, 141). Different again is the title Dark Elf of the Sindarin Elf Eöl, 132, 135, 201; but at 137 Turgon no doubt meant that Eöl was of the Moriquendi."
Silmarillion, Index of Names

As a 'title', Dark Elf for Eol likely refers to his habits:
"He named it galvorn, for it was black and shining like jet, and he was clad in it whenever he went abroad. But Eöl, though stooped by his smithwork, was no Dwarf, but a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri, noble though grim of face; and his eyes could see deep into shadows and dark places."
"...his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants as he had, silent and secret as their master."
"For though at Eöl's command she must shun the sunlight, they wandered far together under the stars or by the light of the sickle moon;..."
"Now Eöl returned out of the east sooner than Maeglin had foreseen, and found his wife and his son but two days gone; and so great was his anger that he followed after them even by the light of day."
Silmarillion, Of Maeglin

So in short, it appears the original conception was rather that dark Elves would in fact also be dark skinned. Ironically he later made the "dark elves" whiter, maybe because he decided it looked a bit odd to make all somewhat bad people black.

Dark Elves (also known as Ilkorendi) in BoLT refers to those "...ye Elves of Kor name Ilkorins, the Elves that never saw the light of Kor." And in commentary "...the conception of the Dark Elves (the later Avari) who never undertook the journey from the Waters of Awakening only emerged in the course of the composition of the Lost Tales."
So here again nothing to do with being dark skinned. As with the Elves they developed into (the Avari Moriquendi), it still refers to them as having not dwelt in the light.

[z3n]

My apologies, When you wrote "not be coopted into being literal dark skinned elves", and then wrote "if Tolkienized Dark Elves (taken from the nordic myths) were also dark skinned", followed by "It's actually stranger that there are no dark skinned elves" led me to believe you were referring to the complexion of the Avari/Dark Elves that you brought up.

My mistake, I thought it's obvious that "literal dark skinned elves" is not what the Avari were. Neither were the "Tolkienized Dark Elves" the same as the original dark elves of nordic myths in the same way the orks, goblins and all the other creatures he took from the myths were changed into a Tolkienized version.

As to my final point, I'm saying that we know half elves existed, and humans were all sorts of colours. Therefore, it's not really strange to think that a half elf could have different skin colours, excluding the idea that only white elves existed. Although, since the descriptions of swarthy skin colours among elves exist, I think it's fair to assume that they did and so it's stranger if they don't exist in the movies or shows.

Originally Tolkien did mean for the LOTR universe to be expanded upon by other authors and writers, although he admitted that it was a bit ridiculous to imagine his own work as being important enough to have multiple authors all contributing to the universe.

He was swart but comely, wise and eloquent, and cunning to win men's hearts and minds." (HoMe IV).
Which this person seems to have missed.
Other missed passages:
"There Meglin prince of Gondobar gathered many warriors of dark countenance
and lowering gaze about him, and a ruddy glow shone upon their faces."

I don't think the person missed those passages. They're simply referring to dark elf in both skin and dark elf in the actual sense Tolkien used it. That's sort of similar to how I'm using it, because frankly to describe someone as a dark elf creates a cognitive dissonance, wherein the dark elf in question is completely pale white; but their description is a "dark elf". It doesn't make sense, in particular visually.

[Knight of Heaven]

As to my final point, I'm saying that we know half elves existed, and humans were all sorts of colours.

In that geographical area of Middle earth? right Are we still pretending Middle earth is modern multicultural Britain? Also why he doesnt have long hair just like al the elves are described by tolkien? Why the chain imagery with this character? Why is Galadriel a warrior princess now? why they are overlooking her husband Celeborn? Why Elrond doesnt even have black hair? Why he is an architect political activist now? Why Female dwarfs dont have beards? Its not Tolkien Universe expanded, it is changed to the point it becomes recognizable. Its the Wheel of time treatment. That is what it seems.

Originally Tolkien did mean for the LOTR universe to be expanded upon by other authors and writers, although he admitted that it was a bit ridiculous to imagine his own work as being important enough to have multiple authors all contributing to the universe.

The same Tolkien that refused a Lord of the rings film adaptation because he opposed precisely what you are saying. See the case of Mr Morton Grady Zimmerman. and the letter Tolkien wrote him. While Tolkien was open to adaptation, he refused the script, and was very peculiar with the spoken words of his works. Hell Christopher Tolkien was famous for his dislike of Peter Jackson movies as well.

This show looks to be garbage, and i suppose that is why fans have been ratio the teasers.

[Infidel144]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQuy_mB1dw

Amazon's now unlisted (english) Tolkien Superfans video (there seem to be a variety of these in different countries working from a similar script).

One of the superfans says he wants to fix Sauron, if like Sauron is Hawwwt!!!
(Dude, "He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." does not mean what you think it means.)

Another did not feel included in because no one was disabled like her.
(nevermind that the whole cycle is about the hand injuries that occur in the attempt to possess various pieces of jewelry)
She also does not know why the Rings were made.

A third whines about there only being three women in LotR and they never talk to one another.
(There are only three women in that trailer. And they are thousands of miles apart.)*

And these are Superfans.

*the "harfoot" is supposedly 'invisible' to the plot (so would not be spoken to either).

[Cyclops]

In that geographical area of Middle earth? right Are we still pretending Middle earth is modern multicultural Britain?

Race baiters are making hay out of this. Middle Earth bears little relation to Britain in the 1950's either, its a fantasy world. Tolkien states people with black skin are like a half-trolls, I am not wasting my time trying to preserve that bit of the story.

Also why he doesnt have long hair just like al the elves are described by tolkien? Why the chain imagery with this character? Why is Galadriel a warrior princess now? why they are overlooking her husband Celeborn? Why Elrond doesnt even have black hair? Why he is an architect political activist now? Why Female dwarfs dont have beards? Its not Tolkien Universe expanded, it is changed to the point it becomes recognizable. Its the Wheel of time treatment. That is what it seems.

Yes unbearded female dwarf leaders are a couple of steps away from the source material. Galadriel as a ninja in plate is way of too, she was a super powerful "magic" (yes I know Tolkien didn't like the word, nor did Galadriel but that's what the Hobbits thought she was) leader capable of flattening fortresses. Hanging of a dagger? Not her style at all, reeks of "young..." versions of famous characters, I mean she's centuries old by the end of the first age...

Maybe there'll be a feisty "young wizards" team, sort of an Ocean's Eleven type. Robert Pattinson as Saruman, the straight guy (with utterly obvious forshadowing "this ring...its a work of genius...uh I mean it must be destroyed"", rebellious Shia leBoeuf as the wildcard Gandalf ([flashbang] "ooops, did I do that?"), McGuire Holland and Garfield as "the other three", complete with Spiderman crossover gags...

I'm I'm joking but its quite possible something this bad will eventuate. I mean we had clown Radagast, idiot Denethor (I will never not hate that Jackson made such an inexplicable blunder) elves at Hornburg and so on. "Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?" Yes yes, change the ****ing story for no reason, its just a guide really...

The same Tolkien that refused a Lord of the rings film adaptation because he opposed precisely what you are saying. See the case of Mr Morton Grady Zimmerman. and the letter Tolkien wrote him. While Tolkien was open to adaptation, he refused the script, and was very peculiar with the spoken words of his works. Hell Christopher Tolkien was famous for his dislike of Peter Jackson movies as well.

FWIW I care less for what Chris thinks, his butchering of the Silmarillion and extended unboxing of his father's rubbish bin suggest he is motivated by something other than the artistic integrity of his father's creations. That said there are some obvious silly changes by Jackson that look like normal Hollywood bull****.

JRRT's objections seem to be obvious rejections of stupid Hollywoodisms, clearly "Z's" script was Disney grade bollocks.

This show looks to be garbage, and i suppose that is why fans have been ratio the teasers.

Looks like they're doing the same to Borderlands too: I know that story has a lot less gravitas and means a lot less, but simple story elements that make a story good (Claptrap's voice, Roland's coolness) mean nothing to the Hollywood machine.

It seems to be a disease that movie types have to make pointless changes to stories, sometimes it seems just to make the point they have the power to do so.

[PointOfViewGun]

Also why he doesnt have long hair just like al the elves are described by tolkien?

Where are all elves described as having long hair by Tolkien?

[Roma_Victrix]

Yes the race baiting is a stupid waste of time, whereas the use of CGI is a cogent criticism. Nothing like seeing O'Toole in the actual Sinai Desert in Lawrence of Arabia, or other staggering shots eg Indiana Jones I, sunset over the archaeological site. That image of the actors in silhouette is possibly Spielberg's finest set piece.

Heh! Indeed, those are great examples of classic cinematography and a director worth his salt knows how to do that without CGI.

Gratuitous use of CGI was still a novelty in 1994 when the silly film The Mask came out in theaters. I remember as a young kid in 1997 watching Spawn and thinking even then that they were going over the top with it, to the point where nothing was realistic (at least The Matrix from 1999 had the excuse that they were in a computer simulation). The original Jurassic Park and Jackson's LOTR films really struck a perfect balance between the practical effects and CGI. The producers of this show don't seem to concerned with emulating or even attempting that at all, but have clearly made the calculation that the newest generation brought upon on Marvel films won't even notice or care.

Also, KnightofHeaven brings up an interesting point about certain characters not being emphasized as they should, like Celeborn at the expense of Galadriel's newly invented role as a warrior. I would fault the show for doing that given how they have the episode lengths to explore all the necessary characters. You could criticize Jackson for not including a few more vital characters into his films, but at least he had exceedingly long runtime lengths for a film trilogy as an excuse. The butchering of characters isn't unique to this show either, given how Jackson (clearly concerned about balancing and weighing screen time for each character) pretty much diverged almost entirely from the books when portraying Denethor as a cynical mean-spirited greedy dick from his very first appearance. There was no slow character transformation showing how he was noble and virtuous beforehand but became corrupted by Sauron through Gondor's palantir seeing stone.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

You could criticize Jackson for not including a few more vital characters into his films, but at least he had exceedingly long runtime lengths for a film trilogy as an excuse.

I don't miss Tom Bombadil.^^

[Cyclops]

I don't miss Tom Bombadil.^^

but will he miss you? ;-)

The whole Bombadil episode is where LoTR teeters on being another Hobbit or becoming (as it does) "All Quiet on the Eriador Front". Its a typical folk tale motif, the episodic crisis of which the Hobbit is chiefly composed, instead of the more sustained novel narrative LoTR becomes.

I love it even as I cringe a bit because Tolkien perhaps is demonstrating, gently, there's another world out there with layers of power, good and evil, on the doorstep of the Shire.

By book six the grind is unbearable, but in book one Tolkien gives his listeners a break. No travelling wounmded, just two quick threats and two quick fixes. Its like a DM with four beginners, buildig in a deus ex machina in case they stick their heads into the trap, and some +1 swords for them all afterwards. Maybe he's remembering the demanding audience of his children "too boring daddy less ashes, more adventures!"

The whole question of omitting Celeborn is an important one. We enjoy Tolkien I feel because the sheer love he pours into the detailed backstories, rather like the Iliad does. A change like Glorfindel out and Arwen in damages the story for this reason. If Arwen had been a developed character instead of an occasional pop in, if the relationship had somehow been sparked with life, it might have created a new plot element, but Jackson just waved her around from time to time (and frankly I feel the actor was crap, with a weird chin to boot) so she fell flat IMHO.

Illogical or poorly executed changes like that kick a hole in the boat of the narrative. In contrast I disliked Jackson's Eomer but it managed to work: Urban is made to play a wooden cutout of a prince, not the lively, perceptive and heroic character of the book. However the actor was skilled enough to project courage and held a place with his cut down (and misinterpreted) role well enough that it doesn't poison the characters around him. Jackosn takes away his horribly transfor5mative line "Death, death death!" and gives it to Theoden, making the old king a suicide essentially, two silly choices. As with Eomer, the botched version of Theoden (too young, too foolish, so inconsistent "where was Gondor?" but then "Rohan will answer!" wtf? why? WHY? Coz limp dick Aragorn gave him an unwashed look?) is saved by a decent actor making him persuasively brave, and the damage doesn't spread.

To me the active/passive/cut&paste Arwen (I mean where was she when the Westfold fell? Lost her horse?), an incomprehensible mess, is meant to be in a fated love affair with anxious Aragorn who doesn't want to be King, but still wants the promised queen? Its jarring, it makes no sense. Why does Boromir admire this quailing (but occasionally mean) drifter? There's literally no reason for him to love Aragorn by the time he dies.

Galadriel, rejecting the West and remaining with the noble Celeborn, and determined for now to make a place in Middle Earth, is not some loose cannon. Shes the senior member of her house bar perhaps Gil Galad, wit the fate of her remnant folk, and her allied Sindar kin in her hands. This is not a loner or an adventurer. I think in the Second Age she's what Elrond would become thousands of years later, one of the Wise. If they include a scene where she gazes into a pool and says "if only I could see the future in this..." I'll probably have an aneurism. But maybe I just won't watch it.

[PointOfViewGun]

Tolkien's son Christopher seems to dissmiss the passage Infidel144 pointed out which doesn't exist in my book as an editing error. In his commentary printed in The Book of Lost Tales, Part One he points out a number of errors in that passage stating that his father was describing Noldor only, and not of all Eldar.

Thus these words describing characters of face and hair were actually written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar: indeed the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin’s Vanyarin mother Indis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden hair that marked them out among the princes of the Noldor. But I am unable to determine how this extraordinary perversion of meaning arose.

Hence, there is no passage from Tolkien that all Elves were pale skinned. He also never wrote about pointy ears...

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

but will he miss you? ;-)

The whole Bombadil episode is where LoTR teeters on being another Hobbit or becoming (as it does) "All Quiet on the Eriador Front". Its a typical folk tale motif, the episodic crisis of which the Hobbit is chiefly composed, instead of the more sustained novel narrative LoTR becomes.

I love it even as I cringe a bit because Tolkien perhaps is demonstrating, gently, there's another world out there with layers of power, good and evil, on the doorstep of the Shire.

By book six the grind is unbearable, but in book one Tolkien gives his listeners a break. No travelling wounmded, just two quick threats and two quick fixes. Its like a DM with four beginners, buildig in a deus ex machina in case they stick their heads into the trap, and some +1 swords for them all afterwards. Maybe he's remembering the demanding audience of his children "too boring daddy less ashes, more adventures!"

The whole question of omitting Celeborn is an important one. We enjoy Tolkien I feel because the sheer love he pours into the detailed backstories, rather like the Iliad does. A change like Glorfindel out and Arwen in damages the story for this reason. If Arwen had been a developed character instead of an occasional pop in, if the relationship had somehow been sparked with life, it might have created a new plot element, but Jackson just waved her around from time to time (and frankly I feel the actor was crap, with a weird chin to boot) so she fell flat IMHO.

Illogical or poorly executed changes like that kick a hole in the boat of the narrative. In contrast I disliked Jackson's Eomer but it managed to work: Urban is made to play a wooden cutout of a prince, not the lively, perceptive and heroic character of the book. However the actor was skilled enough to project courage and held a place with his cut down (and misinterpreted) role well enough that it doesn't poison the characters around him. Jackosn takes away his horribly transfor5mative line "Death, death death!" and gives it to Theoden, making the old king a suicide essentially, two silly choices. As with Eomer, the botched version of Theoden (too young, too foolish, so inconsistent "where was Gondor?" but then "Rohan will answer!" wtf? why? WHY? Coz limp dick Aragorn gave him an unwashed look?) is saved by a decent actor making him persuasively brave, and the damage doesn't spread.

To me the active/passive/cut&paste Arwen (I mean where was she when the Westfold fell? Lost her horse?), an incomprehensible mess, is meant to be in a fated love affair with anxious Aragorn who doesn't want to be King, but still wants the promised queen? Its jarring, it makes no sense. Why does Boromir admire this quailing (but occasionally mean) drifter? There's literally no reason for him to love Aragorn by the time he dies.

Galadriel, rejecting the West and remaining with the noble Celeborn, and determined for now to make a place in Middle Earth, is not some loose cannon. Shes the senior member of her house bar perhaps Gil Galad, wit the fate of her remnant folk, and her allied Sindar kin in her hands. This is not a loner or an adventurer. I think in the Second Age she's what Elrond would become thousands of years later, one of the Wise. If they include a scene where she gazes into a pool and says "if only I could see the future in this..." I'll probably have an aneurism. But maybe I just won't watch it.

But Liv Tyler is ing pretty, she must not act much to represent a elf.

While i really tried two times very hard to read LotR completely, the first time i failed with the first appearance of Bombadil, second time with the grave wraiths and his second appearance, i found Jacksons films quite enjoyable.

So as i'm no LotR purist, i would enjoy this serious, if its plot is good.

Although most LotR fans hate Jacksons three Hobbit movies, i like them, as Jackson had made from that short book a quite enjoyable tragic saga.

[PointOfViewGun]

In my opinion what makes a fantasy/sci-fi movie/show successful is the amount and quality of world building they dive in. Story is important, yes. Characters are important, yes. However, the most important thing is how much of that world that is alien to us they will show.

[Infidel144]

Tolkien's son Christopher seems to dissmiss the passage Infidel144 pointed out which doesn't exist in my book as an editing error. In his commentary printed in The Book of Lost Tales, Part One he points out a number of errors in that passage stating that his father was describing Noldor only, and not of all Eldar.
Hence, there is no passage from Tolkien that all Elves were pale skinned.

There is in fact just such a passage. I quoted it. That passage may be in error, but it exists, and Tolkien wrote it.
Which is what you asked for.
(and, of course, the passage as Tolkien wrote it appears in the work the fanfic authors at Amazon have the rights to)


Again, what is the ISBN of the book you claim to have?

He also never wrote about pointy ears...

Strange. I know of at least two times Tolkien "wrote about pointy ears".
Once in Letters:
"I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)."
Letter 27, describing Hobbits.
And in The Etymologies:
"LAS(1)- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion [KWEL]. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].)"
HoMe 5

Hostetter and Wynne confirm the bracketed reading to be 'human', in VT 45 Addenda and Corrigenda to the Etymologies.

[z3n]

In that geographical area of Middle earth? right Are we still pretending Middle earth is modern multicultural Britain? Also why he doesnt have long hair just like al the elves are described by tolkien? Why the chain imagery with this character? Why is Galadriel a warrior princess now? why they are overlooking her husband Celeborn? Why Elrond doesnt even have black hair? Why he is an architect political activist now? Why Female dwarfs dont have beards? Its not Tolkien Universe expanded, it is changed to the point it becomes recognizable. Its the Wheel of time treatment. That is what it seems.



The same Tolkien that refused a Lord of the rings film adaptation because he opposed precisely what you are saying. See the case of Mr Morton Grady Zimmerman. and the letter Tolkien wrote him. While Tolkien was open to adaptation, he refused the script, and was very peculiar with the spoken words of his works. Hell Christopher Tolkien was famous for his dislike of Peter Jackson movies as well.

This show looks to be garbage, and i suppose that is why fans have been ratio the teasers.

Are we pretending that swarthy is not a descriptive word used on elves already existing within the central part of middle earth? If we go to the south east where Dorwinion is, then it becomes even more likely that Sindar elves mixed with the creepy black half troll men in the south east.

About Zimmerman, you're portraying that incorrectly in my opinion, as Tolkien felt that his story had been reduced to fights and magic with the script sent by Zimmerman. So that's not really a great comparison since Tolkien wanted them to respect the backstory specifically and build on what he had created; rather than reduce it and synthesize everything into simplistic plots.