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Thread: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

  1. #181
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkafinwė View Post
    With what I have seen so far (trailers, official art, interviews, articles) I'm not convinced that the people who are running it are Tolkien fans or have any intention of doing justice (or at least how I see it done justice; the entire discussion is completely subjective in nature).
    Sorry man, but thats a complete BS, they are obviously fans, as well as basically most of the crew... Watch the SDCC creators panel for the show for example (unless you already have) and many other stuff available
    Why would anyone take such a lifetime project if they werent fans ... the creater duo pitched the project themselves, to Amazon, as well as to Tolkien Estate, it was their idea to do Second Age in the first place... Amazon didnt even have an idea there is enough material for that, they were considering worse things, like prequel/spin off from LOTR, like Aragorn or Gimli....

    Maybe they have other idea on how to adapt the source material than you and lots of fans have... but they definitely want do it justice and are devoting their life it... so ppl should at least show a little respect and not make such hostile and nonsenical accusations ... the level of toxicity and hostility everywhere is disgusting (and I thoght SW fans are the most toxic...) ... after all, whatever this show does, it doesnt change the source material... and one way or other, more people are going to read the books (they already are), which is what matters... (I dont usually participate in discussions like this, but the amount of fan toxicity and disinformation is really starting to annoy me)

    Production value is definitely top notch, cinematography, lot of attention to detail, 5 different lore languages being used on the set, linguists, calligraphists, tolkien experts, Bear spent 8 months compiling the soundtrack, etc and etc... not sure what else do you guys want, to, at the very least, not call it a complete trash, fan fiction, or whatever. Maybe the end product will be bad, but some unprecedented effort went into this...



    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    The showrunners are such "Tolkien nerds" that they have to rely on they have to rely on their 'feelings', rather than what Tolkien stated ('we felt Tolkien wanted Elves to have short hair'), in answer to softball questions that were not followed up on.
    One of the showrunners came out and quoted the hymn to Elbereth at SDCC. If that means he can 'speak elvish' then I have been able to 'speak elvish' for 40+ years.
    The Estate has not made sure that "they get things right", and the member of the Estate that the showrunners cited (Simon Tolkien) has stated that Jackson was too faithful to the books.
    Feelings? If you want to use direct citations, then provide some sources please...

    Either way, tbh, I couldnt care less, if some elves have short hair There are thousands and thousands of elves, in many different nations, houses and regions of Arda. I guess not everyone is the same. Some also have beards, like Cķrdan. Tolkien didnt describe physical appearances of every single elf or nation... if I remember correctly, the skin colour also wasnt frequently mentioned...

    The most important is whether they get the Tolkien themes, worldbuilding, characters, message, etc right (simply whether they get the Tolkien right when creating the Second age)... and for determining that, there is close to zero information until we actually see the show...

    Anyways, you guys sure, that you are actually comparing this to the source material, and not to the PJ's movies (they were good, but also pretty far from "perfect" adaptation)... lot of people seem to confuse these two things together apparently..
    Last edited by Jadli; August 24, 2022 at 10:17 AM.

  2. #182

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    Feelings? If you want to use direct citations, then provide some sources please...
    Yes, the showrunners cited their feelings. The showrunners did not provide direct citations. It is right in that SDCC creators panel you linked to.

    Either way, tbh, I couldnt care less, if some elves have short hair There are thousands and thousands of elves, in many different nations, houses and regions of Arda. I guess not everyone is the same.
    You care enough to comment on it, while ignoring that the supposed "total Tolkien nerds" you claim they are, are not providing citation, but indulge in gaslighting.

    Some also have beards, like Cķrdan.
    And?

    Tolkien didnt describe physical appearances of every single elf or nation... if I remember correctly, the skin colour also wasnt frequently mentioned...
    Frequently and generally enough to draw conclusions...

    The most important is whether they get the Tolkien themes, worldbuilding, characters, message, etc right (simply whether they get the Tolkien right when creating the Second age)... and for determining that, there is close to zero information until we actually see the show...
    I judge what has been shown.

    Anyways, you guys sure, that you are actually comparing this to the source material, and not to the PJ's movies (they were good, but also pretty far from "perfect" adaptation)... lot of people seem to confuse these two things together apparently..
    Yes. I am quite sure I compare it to this source material and not to Jackson. This should have been obvious even to you when I noted that the member of the Estate that the showrunners cited (Simon Tolkien) has stated that Jackson was too faithful to the books.
    Last edited by Infidel144; April 13, 2023 at 06:55 PM.

  3. #183

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    The most succinct review that I thought had the most impact on me was some youtube who commented along the lines of "take out the place names and the names of the characters and you wouldn't even know this was Tolkien."

    I couldn't really agree more.

  4. #184

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    Anyways, there is no "story" for Second Era... what we got from Tolkien is basically just an "incomplete chronicle" of major events, there was always inevitably going to be lot of extrapolation and additions, to make it into actual story... we will see how that turns out... but at the very least, super high production value is there for sure...
    To say it with Bilbo: "like butter scraped over too much bread". They just have to invent to many characters and actions to have a story to work with. Persoanlly, I just don't care about all these made up hippie-harfoots, for example.

  5. #185

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Jackson was so faithful to the books that even the coronation of Aragorn was not done in the right place.
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  6. #186
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Yes, the showrunners cited their feelings. The showrunners did not provide direct citations. It is right in that SDCC creators panel you linked to.


    You care enough to comment on it, while ignoring that the supposed "total Tolkien nerds" you claim they are not providing citation, but indulge in gaslighting.


    And?


    Frequently and generally enough to draw conclusions...
    Are you trying to say that elves should only be white?
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  7. #187
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    that aint Sauron man....



    Yea, the soundtrack is really good, Bear nailed it (the only weak part ironically seems to be the main theme by Shore) ... especially the dwarven and Numenor themes...


    Thats weird, cause I have seen quite the opposite. Almost all the crew (especilly including the ppl running it) are total Tolkien nerds (one of the showrunners even speaks elvish I think) and Tolkien Estate has very actively participated on the show, to ensure they get things right. (the marketing hasnt been the best I guess...)

    Anyways, there is no "story" for Second Era... what we got from Tolkien is basically just an "incomplete chronicle" of major events, there was always inevitably going to be lot of extrapolation and additions, to make it into actual story... we will see how that turns out... but at the very least, super high production value is there for sure...

    Either way, people probably need to take a step back and wait with making their opinion until they actually see the show (or at least an ep of it) ... there is insane amount of disinformation running arround, and a huge anti campaign all over the place... (reminds me of anti vaxers tbh)

    But we already got some first impressions from the early screenings and its all overwhelmingly positive! So pretty sure its not gonna be a complete disaster (at least when ppl are able to approach it with an open mind)

    https://www.theonering.net/torwp/202...embargo-lifts/

    Good times for fans of fantasy for sure....
    The guy who plays the POC Elf was asked in the comic con to what elven clan his made up character belongs, and he didn't know what Nandor and Avari elves were. And sure some of the guys may have read the Silmarillion and all that, but if the writers and show runners are completely clueless you can't really do much


  8. #188

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    The whole soundtrack for the first season:


  9. #189
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    Sorry man, but thats a complete BS, they are obviously fans, as well as basically most of the crew... Watch the SDCC creators panel for the show for example (unless you already have) and many other stuff available
    Why would anyone take such a lifetime project if they werent fans ... the creater duo pitched the project themselves, to Amazon, as well as to Tolkien Estate, it was their idea to do Second Age in the first place... Amazon didnt even have an idea there is enough material for that, they were considering worse things, like prequel/spin off from LOTR, like Aragorn or Gimli....

    Maybe they have other idea on how to adapt the source material than you and lots of fans have... but they definitely want do it justice and are devoting their life it... so ppl should at least show a little respect and not make such hostile and nonsenical accusations ... the level of toxicity and hostility everywhere is disgusting (and I thoght SW fans are the most toxic...) ... after all, whatever this show does, it doesnt change the source material... and one way or other, more people are going to read the books (they already are), which is what matters... (I dont usually participate in discussions like this, but the amount of fan toxicity and disinformation is really starting to annoy me)

    Production value is definitely top notch, cinematography, lot of attention to detail, 5 different lore languages being used on the set, linguists, calligraphists, tolkien experts, Bear spent 8 months compiling the soundtrack, etc and etc... not sure what else do you guys want, to, at the very least, not call it a complete trash, fan fiction, or whatever. Maybe the end product will be bad, but some unprecedented effort went into this...





    Feelings? If you want to use direct citations, then provide some sources please...

    Either way, tbh, I couldnt care less, if some elves have short hair There are thousands and thousands of elves, in many different nations, houses and regions of Arda. I guess not everyone is the same. Some also have beards, like Cķrdan. Tolkien didnt describe physical appearances of every single elf or nation... if I remember correctly, the skin colour also wasnt frequently mentioned...

    The most important is whether they get the Tolkien themes, worldbuilding, characters, message, etc right (simply whether they get the Tolkien right when creating the Second age)... and for determining that, there is close to zero information until we actually see the show...

    Anyways, you guys sure, that you are actually comparing this to the source material, and not to the PJ's movies (they were good, but also pretty far from "perfect" adaptation)... lot of people seem to confuse these two things together apparently..

    Production value is def not top notch, costumes look extremely cheap, with some examples shown here
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    they printed the scales on her shirt. That's really amazing for the most expensive series of all time.
    Also here, Elendil and crew (Lord of Andunie), not just a random sailor, but nobility, wearing 50c plastic breastplates.



    About the general appearance of the Elves, we can find this here on Appendix F of ROTK, where he talks about the Noldor
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    So, Amazon has the rights to the appendices of LOTR were it is stated that the High Elves (the ones from Valinor) had long hair, and yet we've seen Celebrimbor and Finrod with short hair for whatever reason. Cirdan is the only one of two Elves that are specifically mentioned to have had a beard (the other being Mahtan, the father in-law of Feanor). So Elves having beards was an extremely extremely extremely rare sight, and "some" is different than 2.

    I am not going to comment much on race-swapped Numenorians/Dunedain, I think it is obvious that they had light skin tone, given that the vast majority of them were from the House of Hador, with the Hadorians mostly being "golden haired with fair skin and blue eyes". The House of Beor whose descendants were the largest part of the Elendili (and therefore of the Dunedain) are described as "dark haired with pale stern faces". Looking at you Tar Miriel and Isildur, who both descended from the royal house of Elros

    For people that want to watch "generic fantasy" this show may be good, but for many true Tolkien fans (yes I will gatekeep here) because there are people out there who call themselves "tolkienists" and claim that Maeglin was a Son of Feanor the show won't go well. The show runners claim that they are going "back to the book, back to the book, back to the book". But in what book was Galadriel commander of armies? (Elrond wants to have talk since he got relegated into some "politician"). How did Galadriel as an elf end up in Numenor at a time when the King's Men were dominating the spectrum there? How are two Durins alive at the same time? Why is there a subplot about Hobbits (yes, Harfoots are one of the 3 clans of Hobbits and people should stop claiming that Hobbits and Harfoots are different from one another) in the SA? Why are many important characters outright missing, like Cirdan, Teleporno and Anarion. They did say that Anarion will show up in later seasons, but why isn't he around when he is 10 years younger than Isildur and why did Amazon invent a fake daughter for Elendil instead? And there have been some unconfirmed reports that Cirdan will show up in Season 2, but I haven't seen any official confirmation on that.

    And yes, I am aware that Jackson also changed a lot of stuff, like Glorfindel not being there, the subplot at the barrow-downs being removed, Faramir wanting to take the ring at first etc etc. But to compare the changes that PJ made to the story: Aside from the rescue of Frodo from Weathertop, does Glorfindel (the elf, the myth, the beast himself) have a role in the quest for the Ring? No. Would I have liked to have seen Glorfindel instead of Arwen? Surely. And from a creative standpoint, removing a character that will only show up for like 30 minutes and never again in an IP where there are tons and tons of characters it can be argued.

    Compare to Amazon: Galadriel is now commanding the armies that Elrond himself commanded. Is there any good reason to remove Elrond from that role and have super Galadriel do that instead? What is the argument for that? Both characters are in the show, and they have had their own important roles in the SA, so it's not like one of them will only get 30 min of screen time and that's it. Galadriel had her insight when Annatar came around, inhereted and kept safe one of the 3 Rings from Celebrimbor and was one of the first to suggest to hide the rings from Sauron. Elrond, the Herald of Gil-Galad commanded armies with good success both in the wars around Eregion and in the Last Alliance, inherited one of the 3 Rings from Gil-Galad and founded Rivendell.

    Who is the biggest lore offender? Amazon or PJ? And if "there is so little info about the SA given to us from Tolkien compared to the FA or the TA", why did Amazon choose to adapt that part? They kept saying how much they wanted a "blank canvas" and the SA was the perfect place to throw the argument of "too little info" so that they could do their whatever this show is and slap the Lord of the Rings stamp on it.
    Last edited by Gyrosmeister; August 25, 2022 at 08:31 PM.


  10. #190

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Skin tone isn't an issue for me unless explicitly contradicted by Tolkien in the description of characters/clans/groups. Really couldn't care less.

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Are you trying to say that elves should only be white?


    Cite your evidence they shouldn't be, since you brought it up and insist to make a racial issue out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Jackson was so faithful to the books that even the coronation of Aragorn was not done in the right place.
    And Amazon's only female and first POC and non-canon dwarf (for some reason, gotta double down on the idpol?) has no beard. They're going to invent that much non-canon garbage out of thin air but still not even give her a beard. If we are going to nitpick over artistic license, Amazon is going to lose every time...
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; August 25, 2022 at 08:24 PM.

  11. #191

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    And Amazon's only female and first POC and non-canon dwarf (for some reason, gotta double down on the idpol?) has no beard. They're going to invent that much non-canon garbage out of thin air but still not even give her a beard. If we are going to nitpick over artistic license, Amazon is going to lose every time...
    Return of the King created a whole ghost army out of thin air for the Siege of Minas Tirith while completely eliminating the thousands of Gondorian soldiers that the Corsair ships would carry but sure, a character's skin color and facial hair is certainly more important...
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  12. #192
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    everybody knows dwarfs are physically unable to shave their faces and elves cannot have skin darker than selena gomez. (and that the skin tone of the dwarves is irrelevant because they must be completely covered with fur)

  13. #193

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Return of the King created a whole ghost army out of thin air for the Siege of Minas Tirith while completely eliminating the thousands of Gondorian soldiers that the Corsair ships would carry but sure, a character's skin color and facial hair is certainly more important...
    No, it's not...but...have you even read Return of the King?

  14. #194

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    No, it's not...but...have you even read Return of the King?
    Did Return of the King book had a ghost army fighting mammoths at the gates of Minas Tirith or not?
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  15. #195
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Did Return of the King book had a ghost army fighting mammoths at the gates of Minas Tirith or not?
    Well there is no down PJ totally killed the strategy and tactics and scale of fighting across the Two Towers and Return of the king. But that is sort of a generic failing of 'Hollywood'. Even if there had been no made up green slime victory pretty sure PJ would screwed up the battle anyway.

    --------------

    And yes, I am aware that Jackson also changed a lot of stuff, like Glorfindel not being there, the subplot at the barrow-downs being removed, Faramir wanting to take the ring at first etc etc. But to compare the changes that PJ made to the story: Aside from the rescue of Frodo from Weathertop, does Glorfindel (the elf, the myth, the beast himself) have a role in the quest for the Ring? No. Would I have liked to have seen Glorfindel instead of Arwen? Surely. And from a creative standpoint, removing a character that will only show up for like 30 minutes and never again in an IP where there are tons and tons of characters it can be argued.
    It can but recall she was not just a swap in but a made up tack on for some baffling sequences at other times as well. Thus A fine swap out Glorfindel. But than first get a good actress. Second insert her also where her brothers show up in the books with the Northern Rangers for example. Loose the weird OH NO now Aargorn is dead waste of time and bizarre discovery that in the north Ranger boots are a flotation device just like the seat on my jet plane... than better yet loose the march of Theden and 6 guys and few really poor peasants retreating toward the enemy (and really silly looking wargs). Instead restore Eoyown to her proper stature as the vice oy of Rohan organizing both the muster of its army in full and its final defense if things go sideways and Theoden and Eomer leading the ready force at had to try and reinforce the defense of the fords. Telescope the Rangers + Arwen arrival to both have all heard Argorn's desire that his kin and love of his life should be with as the last great fight goes down. They can also announce they had to cut through the enemy and learn the river defense was broken - thus the retreat to Helms deep. Thus you get rid of teleporting army from Lorien. And a potentially much more dramatic sequence as seen from Aragorn's view when say the Rangers die in numbers holding back for the breach of the walls and Arwen is swept into the caves so Aragorn has no ideal if she lives... rather than the slow mo death of blond elf I was surprised I was supposed to care about. Also with just a bit dialoge here an there that tactical situation coold be updated. The rangers arive in an expanded number but report the river postion is last but at the same time Saruman's force is disorganized for the moment. Retreating to the Deep they find a it garrisoned but minimally and not just a with 10 year olds with really bad equipment, but have reasonable confidence. Reinforced by Rangers, Gandalf off as only he can be to see about rounding up the men of the Westfold and behind them a competent leader is gathering the army of Rohan proper. In reality we than have all the reasons S launches a reckless and costly immediate assault. Said force than can loose quite logically to a sally a an infantry not suicidal cavalry charge (done badly in any case by PJ) and now we that cgi for scary magic trees that show up at dawn.
    Last edited by conon394; August 27, 2022 at 08:53 AM.
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  16. #196

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    He certainly butchered that battle, especially with the mumakil. The idea in the books was what Ceaser did with Scipio's elephants. Instead, we had ghosts dealing with them. Rings of Power has to mess up a lot to be worse than the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

    Anyhow, found this little illustration that I'd like to share:

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  17. #197
    Gyrosmeister's Avatar Monsieur Grec
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    He certainly butchered that battle, especially with the mumakil. The idea in the books was what Ceaser did with Scipio's elephants. Instead, we had ghosts dealing with them. Rings of Power has to mess up a lot to be worse than the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

    Anyhow, found this little illustration that I'd like to share:


    Warrior Galadriel commanding Numenorian Cavalry is a much bigger lore violation than the ghosts dealing with the Haradrim forces. Yes the ghosts weren't used in the fields themselves, but only to clean up the Umbar fleet, but they were at least in the general vicinity of the area, unlike Numenor that never fielded cavalry with Galadriel (who didn't touch a sword in the first place in the Wars of Beleriand, let alone the SA) commanding them.


  18. #198

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Numenoreans did not even use their horses in war (except as couriers and some light archers often drawn from non-Numenoreans).

  19. #199

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrosmeister View Post
    Warrior Galadriel commanding Numenorian Cavalry is a much bigger lore violation than the ghosts dealing with the Haradrim forces. Yes the ghosts weren't used in the fields themselves, but only to clean up the Umbar fleet, but they were at least in the general vicinity of the area, unlike Numenor that never fielded cavalry with Galadriel (who didn't touch a sword in the first place in the Wars of Beleriand, let alone the SA) commanding them.
    Damn. That's just pushing for no real reason. Completely ignoring thousands of Gondorian soldiers along with the Grey Company that arrived in time for the battle with Aragorn while having ghosts in a battle that didn't have them to completely change the way a battle was fought. Just because the ghost army was somehow near (as in Pelargir which was quite far away) Minas Tirith doesn't really make its use valid. What else? The ghost army in the book does not have physical contact as it does in the movie. Their actual weapon is fear as the Corsair and Harad go mad and flee or drown out of losing their mind. In the movies they clearly have physical effect.

    Numenorians having cavalry hardly compares. While we know they didn't prefer to use horses in combat (though they did for lightly armed archers) their main means of transport on land was still horses. Also, Galadriel is quite depicted as a warrior in the books multiple times. Tolkien himself described her as Amazon-like. In the Kinslaying she is described as fighting fiercely against Feanor.

    The problem we have here is nostalgia. Peter Jackson's version of Middle Earth is so etched into people's brain that they defy what is written on Tolkien's works.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; August 27, 2022 at 06:01 PM.
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  20. #200
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Numenorians having cavalry hardly compares. While we know they didn't prefer to use horses in combat (though they did for lightly armed archers) their main means of transport on land was still horses. Also, Galadriel is quite depicted as a warrior in the books multiple times. Tolkien himself described her as Amazon-like. In the Kinslaying she is described as fighting fiercely against Feanor.

    The problem we have here is nostalgia. Peter Jackson's version of Middle Earth is so etched into people's brain that they defy what is written on Tolkien's works.

    Could post the quotes from the book saying that Numenor had a cavalry force stationed outside Numenor or that they had a force acting as bodyguards for Galadriel?
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