The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

[PointOfViewGun]

Again, no, it is not so. Jackson LotR did not the butchering that RoP is doing. Let me stress the point again, anyone who knows the lore knows exactly what I'm talking about. And in any case pretending to justify the horrible work done by RoP by addressing some other issue, is a weak debating strategy that makes even less sense than people discussin lore without knowing it.
To me, RoP is a bad show, with terrible lore butchering, boring and incoherent, the rest is honestly irrelevant

If you are applying different standards to different adaptations of the same work then its completely valid to debate people's comment on both. Jackson often changed pretty much everything about a lot of story aspects in his movies; the best example being the army of the dead (Jackson changing the location, nature and use of it). What's really weak debating strategy is invoking lore knowledge without the substance.

[mishkin]

No, it doesn't That's why so many people dislike it.

Wait... new editions of Tolkien's books have been altered? since what year? (I could have several unaltered Tolkien originals, maybe they're worth a fortune now)

Again, people is free to express their opinions, aren't they? Just because someone doesn't like bad reviews, it doesn't mean they cannot be posted. Pretending anything different would be a truly childish behavior.

people are perfectly free to express their opinion, behave in a childish way and watch a series only to rage at its failures. I am free to point out how absurd this is.

Again, no, it is not so. Jackson LotR did not the butchering that RoP is doing. Let me stress the point again, anyone who knows the lore knows exactly what I'm talking about. And in any case pretending to justify the horrible work done by RoP by addressing some other issue, is a weak debating strategy that makes even less sense than people discussin lore without knowing it.
To me, RoP is a bad show, with terrible lore butchering, boring and incoherent, the rest is honestly irrelevant

Peter Jackson took a lot of liberties with the original story. If that's fine with you but what the new show does is over the top, fine.

[Flinn]

the army of the dead (Jackson changing the location, nature and use of it).

that's ridiculous, come on. Jackson did not change the location (Dwimorberg) nor the nature (Men of the White Mountains who betrayed Isildur), he only changed the place it has been used from Pelargir to the Harlond, and that makes absolute sense in the economy of the movie, while not altering at all the global effect (Armies of the dead giving Aragorn the upper hand on the battle of the Anduin, that is). If you think you can compare that with turning Galadriel into a seasoned warrior, then we are using two completely different means of measuring what "altering the lore" means, hence I'm not surprised why we cannot agree on even one point in this discussion. At your service

people are perfectly free to express their opinion, behave in a childish way and watch a series only to rage at its failures. I am free to point out how absurd this is.

It is still petty, anyways. The more if one does not actually discuss the topic of the thread, but exclusively the behavior of those who are actually doing so (even if biased, I concede that).

[mishkin]

It is still petty, anyways. The more if one does not actually discuss the topic of the thread, but exclusively the behavior of those who are actually doing so (even if biased, I concede that).

I've only pointed this out in my last posts, just two pages ago I was talking to POVG about the end of the last episode. Ridiculous accusation.

[PointOfViewGun]

that's ridiculous, come on. Jackson did not change the location (Dwimorberg) nor the nature (Men of the White Mountains who betrayed Isildur), he only changed the place it has been used from Pelargir to the Harlond, and that makes absolute sense in the economy of the movie, while not altering at all the global effect (Armies of the dead giving Aragorn the upper hand on the battle of the Anduin, that is). If you think you can compare that with turning Galadriel into a seasoned warrior, then we are using two completely different means of measuring what "altering the lore" means, hence I'm not surprised why we cannot agree on even one point in this discussion. At your service

This only conveys lack of memory regarding the actual book as I'm sure you have read them. The army of the dead was never anywhere near Minas Tirith. It did not have the ability to exert physical force on others as we see it does in the movie. They were not used to fight an army. In the books, Aragorn uses them to drive the corsairs mad, taking over their ships, and managing to transform the Gondorian soldiers in the south along with his Grey Company. This allows Aragorn to arrive at the siege with an other army of living men, not the dead. Jackson's portrayal completely changes the narrative.

In the movies, they don't even stop at Harlond. They are the ones that clear out the entire battlefield, including inside the walls of Minas Tirith as well. You don't seem to remember the movie as well, not just books.



In the movies, the army of the dead is used as the Age of Empires cobra car cheat. It wasn't a matter of economy. It likely costs more to have them in the large battlefield rather than having a series of much smaller shots showing corsairs going mad at sight of them and Aragorn collecting men as he sailed up river. It also allowed Jackson to be lazy about dealing with the Mumakil where the books depict a more Ceaser vs Scipio's elephants situation.

I can't compare that with the way Rings of Power dealt with Galadriel as that depiction has some basis in the books. You know who directly contradicted the books about Galadriel? Jackson did. In the Hobbit. The books give the credit of driving out Sauron from Dol Guldur (or more precisely Sauron fleeing from) to Saruman and his devices, not Galadriel. In the movies, its shown as if Galadriel single handedly casted him away.

[Flinn]

I definitely have issues with the Hobbit as well, as I already said.

In the movies, the army of the dead is used as the Age of Empires cobra car cheat. It wasn't a matter of economy. It likely costs more to have them in the large battlefield rather than having a series of much smaller shots showing corsairs going mad at sight of them and Aragorn collecting men as he sailed up river. It also allowed Jackson to be lazy about dealing with the Mumakil where the books depict a more Ceaser vs Scipio's elephants situation.

Sorry, I might have been not very clear: when I say the "economy of the movie" I refer to the fact that if PJ would have stuck to the Army of the Dead arriving in Pelargir, that would have needed an entire new line of narration to introduce the city, the background and so on and on. Just like it happened with Tom Bombadill it's a plausible omission that does not alter the overall plot in any sensible way (atl this is what I believe).

They were not used to fight an army. In the books, Aragorn uses them to drive the corsairs mad, taking over their ships, and managing to transform the Gondorian soldiers in the south along with his Grey Company. This allows Aragorn to arrive at the siege with an other army of living men, not the dead. Jackson's portrayal completely changes the narrative.

I might be wrong, but I don't remember the Deads actually killing anyone, but still driving them to rout out of pure fear.

However, we are definitely going off topic here, feel free to start a new thread about LotR trilogy and the Hobbit and I'll gladly join

I've only pointed this out in my last posts, just two pages ago I was talking to POVG about the end of the last episode. Ridiculous accusation.

My bad, I haven't noticed them then. But then again, doesn't change much, since rejecting other's people opinions by labeling them as "truly childish behavior" is still petty.

[PointOfViewGun]

I definitely have issues with the Hobbit as well, as I already said.
However, we are definitely going off topic here, feel free to start a new thread about LotR trilogy and the Hobbit and I'll gladly join

Definitely not off topic as the claim of lore butchering is at scrutiny here. You don't get to claim it for Rings of Power but butcher it yourself for the Jackson movies. It shows how genuine and knowledgeable the charges against Rings of Power are.

[Flinn]

Definitely not off topic as the claim of lore butchering is at scrutiny here. You don't get to claim it for Rings of Power but butcher it yourself for the Jackson movies. It shows how genuine and knowledgeable the charges against Rings of Power are.

Well I did mean that discussing LotR or the Hobbit in detail is not inherently on topic here, but that's just, like, my opinion Up to you to start or not a new thread, I'm certainly done discussing those two shows in this thread.

And RoP remains a boring and badly written show, in any case

[conon394]

Sorry, I might have been not very clear: when I say the "economy of the movie" I refer to the fact that if PJ would have stuck to the Army of the Dead arriving in Pelargir, that would have needed an entire new line of narration to introduce the city, the background and so on and on. Just like it happened with Tom Bombadill it's a plausible omission that does not alter the overall plot in any sensible way (atl this is what I believe).

Well I can see cutting Tom, since PJ was not interested it really following effects of the ring or its attraction to various 'powerful' characters very closely. But you can't I think argue for economy of the dead. When PJ added stuff like floating Aragorn that was pointless. Adding Peligar would have been solid film making in showing Gondor as a kingdom vs just an isolated city in the middle of nowhere. I mean with the dead just being implied that CGI could have given two great cities with feilds and you know a way to outside of cannibalism.

[PointOfViewGun]

Budget was certainly not an issue as Jackson had CGI heavy scenes like the Witch King breaking the staff of Gandalf. Jackson changed a lot of things about the story and the nature of it. The state of Gondor, as if it was a state-city, and the siege of Minas Tirith, where the victory of men was undermined by the ghost army that never existed there, were the highlights of it. Making excuses for Jackson by the same people that throw criticism at Rings of Power shows how their criticism lack any genuine thought or base in lore purity/accuracy. They deny what Tolkien himself explicitly wrote in his books while expecting purity from half written notes about an era that lacks a lot of substance.

[mishkin]

They deny what Tolkien himself explicitly wrote in his books while expecting purity from half written notes about an era that lacks a lot of substance.

This would be a good summary of the controversy. (by the way, to point out that as far as I know everything is being done with the authorization of Tolkien's heirs/estate, nothing that has been done would make Tolkien turn in his grave).

[Infidel144]

Lots of memberberries to Jackson in 6 (e.g. Gimli trying to smash the One Ring, Helm's Deep, charge of Eomer and the Rohirrim, Arwen fleeing the Nazgul), and some Martin as well (the King we were Promised v. the Prince that was Promised).
It is explained that *Elves have a custom of planting seeds before battle.
Adar and Arondir both do so.
However, Adar is one of the first *Elves captured by *Morgoth, whence *Orcs come from.
How then would he have this custom of planting seeds before battle that the *Elves could only have developed after experiencing war (the *Elves who had no word for death before they left *Valinor)?

[PointOfViewGun]

This would be a good summary of the controversy. (by the way, to point out that as far as I know everything is being done with the authorization of Tolkien's heirs/estate, nothing that has been done would make Tolkien turn in his grave).

They are also constrained by the content they have no rights over which is why they are forced not to mention or show certain things like the Ungoliath.

On a side note, remember those scale armor that people made fun of for them using rubber like substance to mimic metallic armor? It turns out they were actually leather armor akin to what Romans used that the show was rightfully depicting with no claim of being metallic armor.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I wanted so badly for this show to be good, but I have taken more interesting than the plot of this writing disaster. I hope the wolves succeed in killing and devouring all the Harfoots, because they deserve it.

[mishkin]

best episode so far. battles, arandir does not need to surf to be cool, more "dark" galadriel, good to see the uruk/elves thing.

[PointOfViewGun]

Based on the Of the Rings of Power, Sauron is:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Probably already in Eregion and he is the person influencing Celebrimbor to build the forge. The book implies that Elves, at that point, do not exactly know that he is Sauron. We'll likely see Celebrimbor at the end of the season saying "Oh, by the way, let me introduce my friend Annatar, who have been helping me in my forge building" to Elrond.

[conon394]

Admit I sorta skimmed episode 6:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What a ghastly battle. Their horses were running a charge how long - they are not Toyota technicals. What idiot would charge into a village on his or her very expensive horse. Dismount and advance on foot in close order. Oh of course plucky village grandmothers if 'good' get a level up bonus right? I am sorry If villages were that good in a pinch Europe would have been a mass of self ruling independent peasant collectives all operating as proto democracies and the mannor/vassal/feudal thing would never exist. If you going to do some kind of pretend seven samurai I really need seven samurai and a lot more attenuated cast of bad guys. The chain thing are you kidding me were those guys bolted to their saddles and the saddles riveted into the horses? OK I know its Galadriel and she is supposed to be a boss and cool having her play Apache on her horse but in plate I don't think so - particularity plate designed for an artsy look and not properly... Maybe some super cool mail she lugged over from Valinor. And I thought Pete Jackson was bad at battles. And please god but their damn helmets on you given them all distinctive armor.

Those guys were supposed to Numenoreans right - in white? So just ignore the fact they fought as infantry with shields and it was their metal bows that made them fearsome - there only one one lore argument.

Altogether head hitting desk time w/o any lore rabbit holes.

[mishkin]

Based on the Of the Rings of Power, Sauron is

I was going to ask when the hell the rings that give the series its title are going to appear. I hope they do not delay the story and are the great revelation/cliffhanger of the end of the season.

[NorthernXY]

Problem I had with Tolkien is where are the female orcs?

As for the orcs being white, someone mentioned it. Elves are white (no matter what these "writers" say) and orcs are adverse to the Sun so of course they should be pale. Were also white in the Hobbit cartoon if I remember correctly.

That said, I still haven't watched a second of the show, or a preview for that matter.

[conon394]

Problem I had with Tolkien is where are the female orcs?

Err at home likely doing what women do have children, raise children, die in child birth... I know Hollywood loves it some bad ass female warriors but unless you have infant mortality and death by birth of say a modern western OECD nation you really can't afford to risk too many women in combat. In all of the LOTR and Hobbit we really only pass through one orc city. And Golum does in talking to himself suggest he liked the squealing of the orc women and children as I recall when he strangled them.