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Thread: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

  1. #21
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Maybe for people who watch for the reasons you do Akar
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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    I doubt anyone here cares about sexploitation in TV shows, generally. (Starz) Spartacus pre-dated GoT and went straight for the gold standard, as did GoT, but largely they were in context.
    As far as I know 'Middle Earth' isn't awash with brothels, though if the 'Prancing Pony' had a glory hole in the backroom, I doubt anyone would be too surprised.
    Last edited by Halie Satanus; January 21, 2022 at 07:04 AM.

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    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Dble..

  4. #24

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    I doubt anyone here cares about sexploitation in TV shows, generally. (Starz) Spartacus pre-dated GoT and went straight for the gold standard, as did GoT, but largely they were in context.
    And let's not forget "Rome".

    But I do understand where z3n's argument is coming from - having sexploitation in the show would be against the spirit of the original content and tone which JRRT was going for, which is to have the sexual "events" go on behind the scenes (obviously people in Middle-earth procreate, the description of such trivia was just not something the author cared to focus on) and largely leave them to the reader's imagination. Not every franchise has to have everything.
    My own point is that while I understand that it's not in line with Tolkien's vision, it's still far less obnoxious and toxic than other modern, zeitgeisty "improvements" that have nothing to do with the author's vision and everything with the narcissistic worldview of the script writers and producers.

  5. #25
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I'm hyped! That intro was pretty damn cool despite not revealing a damn thing. I can't wait for Elrond and Elendil to kick everyone's ass, in a medieval fantasy realm way of course, not like a buddy cop comedy duo. Isildur and Anarion should be fun characters to see as well.





    Why is everyone such a prude all of the sudden? Is TWC run by 17th century priests who covered up naughty bits of Greco-Roman statues at the Vatican or something?

    I can understand why someone dislikes repetitive gratuitous nude scenes, and Game of Thrones did invent the concept of "sexposition" (i.e. portmanteau of sex and storyline exposition), but having a few sex scenes is nothing. Unless you're watching this show with your grandmother, then I would truly have to wonder why it would make you so uncomfortable. Maybe go outside and talk to girls more often?

    For that matter it's not like LOTR was devoid of romantic relationships. Jackson's trilogy didn't have sex scenes but it did have intimate make out scenes between Aragorn and Arwen. Sex is just a part of life and, since the LOTR books and film trilogy were geared more towards a universal audience, obviously it wasn't going to have sex scenes. This isn't Disney Plus, though. A modern TV series on Amazon Prime doesn't have to cater to a younger underage audience like that and is naturally more adult-centered. I'm sure they don't plan on shoving Elven wee-wees and vaginas in viewers' faces for ten minutes straight, if that's what you're overly concerned about.
    I just don't agree with adding sex for the sake of it, especially when it comes to Tolkeins universe or Star Wars. They're both meant to be kid friendly, and involve no interaction from the adult.

    You realize there's hundreds of shows with sex that you could alternatively watch right? And basic respect of the authors wishes is just human decency.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    My own point is that while I understand that it's not in line with Tolkien's vision, it's still far less obnoxious and toxic than other modern, zeitgeisty "improvements" that have nothing to do with the author's vision and everything with the narcissistic worldview of the script writers and producers.
    Although the Second Age like the First is not quite the LOTR. JRRT does leave room for where you might find nudity how do the people dragged to Sauron's alters look? Also if full source material for the Second age is available some of the unfinshed work has elves trying to move to south of woodwork coming to a rather nasty end at the hands of the locals.

    They're both meant to be kid friendly
    Outside of the original Hobbit before it was attached to the his wider world not sure I 'kid friendly' as apt.

    He intended epic and mythology. But his back story has its dark parts - quit a lot.
    Last edited by conon394; January 21, 2022 at 10:31 AM.
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    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Although the Second Age like the First is not quite the LOTR. JRRT does leave room for where you might find nudity how do the people dragged to Sauron's alters look? Also if full source material for the Second age is available some of the unfinshed work has elves trying to move to south of woodwork coming to a rather nasty end at the hands of the locals.



    Outside of the original Hobbit before it was attached to the his wider world not sure I 'kid friendly' as apt.

    He intended epic and mythology. But his back story has its dark parts - quit a lot.
    If you've read all of his books, and his sons books, there is no foul language, no descriptions of puke, no description of bodily fluids, solids, or sex scenes. I'm confused where you got the idea there are, but there definitely aren't.

    Tolkien is specifically the father of high fantasy, not dark fantasy. Sex scenes were definitely never included within any of his books, specifically for that reason.
    Last edited by z3n; January 21, 2022 at 11:47 AM.
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    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Yeah having some morbid or even just deep themes that’s go beyond “sunshine and rainbows and everybody was happy” doesn’t mean they aren’t kid friendly
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  9. #29
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Women are also depicted very idealistically, not like real characters. It's not an accident that all main protagonists are male. Females are very few, and just sideshows. Only in Silmarilion there're more of them, with some taking the main roles.

  10. #30
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    If you've read all of his books, and his sons books, there is no foul language, no descriptions of puke, no description of bodily fluids, solids, or sex scenes. I'm confused where you got the idea there are, but there definitely aren't.
    True he by in large avoids graphic depictions but the implication of such is there. BY in large i'm not sure what gained from GRRM by being told how many times Tyron took a piss or how long it was...

    Tolkien is specifically the father of high fantasy, not dark fantasy. Sex scenes were definitely never included within any of his books, specifically for that reason.
    No sex in the Iliad either - kid fare

    -----------------

    Women are also depicted very idealistically, not like real characters. It's not an accident that all main protagonists are male. Females are very few, and just sideshows. Only in Silmarilion there're more of them, with some taking the main roles.
    Given the nature of the world what would you expect. Besides not sideshows. Franky for example Jackson dumbs down Eowyn to a side show when she is very much not. Unless you have a world where birthing a kid is easy as pie (and not a massive mortality event) and has artificial means of replacing breast feeding - sorry bad ass female warriors are likely not a dime a dozen unless you want your culture to die out. And while running the household well while the boys are away playing war is a good thing indeed it not quite epic is it, and it all falls to sh@t if the boys loose anyway.
    Last edited by conon394; January 21, 2022 at 12:46 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #31
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    True he by in large avoids graphic depictions but the implication of such is there. BY in large i'm not sure what gained from GRRM by being told how many times Tyron took a piss or how long it was...
    He completely avoids it because there are no graphic descriptions of sex at all. I'll grant that the fact that there are children means they had sex, but children won't really think that's something gross and dirty.


    No sex in the Iliad either - kid fare

    Culturally unless I'm misunderstanding your point, it's kind of strange to think that Tolkien is horrible for kids, whereas billions of people think that the Bible + Quran + Tanakh are ok for kids. Even the fairy tales have dark elements in them, and warn kids about the dangers of running away from home (evil strangers), or dangers lurking outside of safe environments (little red riding hood). The possibility of death, dismemberment, being eaten etc. Snow white has its fair share of dark things as well.



    If you grew up watching classic Disney movies such as "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" and "Cinderella," or reading the Little Golden Book version of "Pinocchio," you're probably accustomed to thinking of fairy tales as wholesome entertainment for young children.
    That's why it may come as a shock to watch "Snow White" again as an adult and realize that it's a bit macabre. For example, when the jealous queen orders the huntsman to kill Snow White, she demands that he bring back the girl's heart in a jewel box as evidence of his violent deed. And that's just the relatively sanitized, Disney-fied version. In the early 19th-century version published by the German brothers Jakob and Wilhelm Grimm, the queen wants to devour Snow White's lungs and liver.
    https://people.howstuffworks.com/10-...airy-tales.htm
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  12. #32

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    While talking about sexuality is always fun, I think it's a rather disservice to the topic at hand to focus on it...

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Does anyone actually know what material they have right to.
    Reportedly their access was expanded over the course of production.

    Spy Report: 20 new details emerge from Amazon’s Lord of the Rings: Characters, Sexless Nudity and Halflings!
    First off, we are hearing that the Tolkien Estate is very happy with how things are progressing. Seems they really are more involved in this Production than with any previous LOTR adaptation ever [including the Bakshi version in 1978 and the six Middle-earth films from Peter Jackson; per the terms of the newest deal] and are thus enjoying the creative process. The overall plan for the show has instilled confidence in the Production and more story rights have been assigned to the show.

    *CONFIRMED* for the 1st time EVER: elements & passages from “The Silmarillion” and “Unfinished Tales” are licensed by Amazon Studios for this adaptation [we broadly speculate those are sections of the book relative to N˙menor and Rings of Power including full rights to stories licensed in the Appendices of “The Lord of the Rings,” which already mention N˙menor and much more. Actors had posted instagram pics from Silm over the last 18 months.]
    Amazon DOES have merchandising rights
    Three lore experts / Tolkien scholars were on set for a time during production
    Tolkien Estate is said to be very happy with how things are progressing
    I really hate the idea of incomplete or forced story changes due to copyright issues. With so much money involved they should be able to do it just right.
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  13. #33
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Interesting link! Thanks for sharing that. Excitedly giving it a full read now.


    So as it turns out our tangential discussion does have a resolution:

    Nudity is sparse and not sexualized— contrary to earlier concerns: but rather this artistic choice represents very dark thematic material suggestive of concentration camp-type visuals of victims, a harrowing portrayal of the corruption of the Elves by dark powers to ultimately become Orcs
    Interesting that so much of the lore is opened up, the Silmarillion and unfinished tales are pretty much similar in scope, if not bigger, to the LOTR trilogy + hobbit.
    Last edited by z3n; January 21, 2022 at 04:51 PM.
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  14. #34

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Women are also depicted very idealistically, not like real characters. It's not an accident that all main protagonists are male. Females are very few, and just sideshows. Only in Silmarilion there're more of them, with some taking the main roles.
    I find ╔owyn pretty relatable and not entirely idealistically written, and in Unfinished Tales there are one or two important female characters that are not very idealistic either.

  15. #35
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    I think taking “the Tolkien estate is happier with this than prior productions” at face value while also ignoring the major difference of those prior adaptations were made while Chris Tolkien was alive is a bit naive. The estate took negative, usually very strict stances on adaptations beforehand because he was not just the head of the estate and his lead was followed, but he had also played an immense role in creating the world. Without him to set the tone, there’s no reason to think any descendants who previously may have been fine with much looser adaptations are motivated by anything but money. The current Tolkien estate’s motives or interest in strictly preserving Tolkien’s legacy is complete conjecture with no way to prove it in either direction.
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    I think taking “the Tolkien estate is happier with this than prior productions” at face value while also ignoring the major difference of those prior adaptations were made while Chris Tolkien was alive is a bit naive. The estate took negative, usually very strict stances on adaptations beforehand because he was not just the head of the estate and his lead was followed, but he had also played an immense role in creating the world. Without him to set the tone, there’s no reason to think any descendants who previously may have been fine with much looser adaptations are motivated by anything but money. The current Tolkien estate’s motives or interest in strictly preserving Tolkien’s legacy is complete conjecture with no way to prove it in either direction.
    Who is the new estate lead man? If its Moondog McHorny Tolkien I think we may be in for a wild ride.
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  17. #37

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    IInteresting that so much of the lore is opened up, the Silmarillion and unfinished tales are pretty much similar in scope, if not bigger, to the LOTR trilogy + hobbit.
    As someone that read them all I can testify that Silmarillion alone contains dozens of LOTR like plots.
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  18. #38
    TurkafinwŰ's Avatar The Sick Baby Jester
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    I'm mainly hoping for great visuals that will inspire me. I know that script-wise or fair potrayal of certain known characters that will please me is most likely not in the cards for me. So I'm not going to focus on that and enjoy the things that it will throw at me. I'm hoping for a decent script and enjoyable atmosphere to pull me through. The adaptation that I truly want is simply impossible to make.

    Work with what you have not with what you wish you had and you'll be happier for it.

  19. #39

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Perhaps as foul as the language gets:
    Ugl˙k u bagronk sha pushdug Saruman-glob b˙b-hosh skai

    And as explicit:
    Oh, loveliest maid of Elvenesse,
    what madness doth thee now possess?
    Ah, lissom limbs and shadowy hair
    and chaplet of white snowdrops there;
    oh, starry diadem and bright
    soft hands beneath the pale moonlight!
    She left his arms and slipped away
    just at the breaking of the day.

  20. #40
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    I doubt anyone here cares about sexploitation in TV shows, generally. (Starz) Spartacus pre-dated GoT and went straight for the gold standard, as did GoT, but largely they were in context.
    As far as I know 'Middle Earth' isn't awash with brothels, though if the 'Prancing Pony' had a glory hole in the backroom, I doubt anyone would be too surprised.
    Hah! The "Prancing Pony" also sounds like a place where men train BDSM chariot ponygirl slaves or something. I hear that their most frequent customer is a Hobbit chap named Dildo Gaggins.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    And let's not forget "Rome".

    But I do understand where z3n's argument is coming from - having sexploitation in the show would be against the spirit of the original content and tone which JRRT was going for, which is to have the sexual "events" go on behind the scenes (obviously people in Middle-earth procreate, the description of such trivia was just not something the author cared to focus on) and largely leave them to the reader's imagination. Not every franchise has to have everything.
    My own point is that while I understand that it's not in line with Tolkien's vision, it's still far less obnoxious and toxic than other modern, zeitgeisty "improvements" that have nothing to do with the author's vision and everything with the narcissistic worldview of the script writers and producers.
    That's fair. To be clear, if there are no sex scenes at all, I could care less and am totally stoked about the show. If there are a few sex scenes and some naked Elf asses dancing about in a handful of scenes, I could also care less and it would not even occur to me to bring that up as a point of criticism. Having some limited nudity is enormously superficial, especially if it is in conjunction with well known romantic relationships that occur in the novels (albeit this is the Second Age, so obviously different human characters and a few Elves that did not survive into the Third Age).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Women are also depicted very idealistically, not like real characters. It's not an accident that all main protagonists are male. Females are very few, and just sideshows. Only in Silmarilion there're more of them, with some taking the main roles.
    What? Maybe you could argue this for the Elven female characters Arwen and Galadriel, albeit a flimsy argument, but Eowyn is not a sideshow character. She literally kills the Witch King of Angmar at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. As far as early to mid-20th century authors go, Tolkien stands close to the very top in terms of creating strong leading female characters, within an ensemble cast of mostly male ones, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by z3n View Post
    Interesting link! Thanks for sharing that. Excitedly giving it a full read now.


    So as it turns out our tangential discussion does have a resolution:

    Interesting that so much of the lore is opened up, the Silmarillion and unfinished tales are pretty much similar in scope, if not bigger, to the LOTR trilogy + hobbit.
    That's one way to do it and that's fine. Again, I see no problem with a bit of nudity in LOTR on an Amazon Prime show or alternatively if this were to be aired on HBO instead. I guess nobody has a reason to make gripes or complaints on that front now that sex scenes are out of the picture.

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