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Thread: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

  1. #421

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    This thread is mostly the only info I get about the show. I don't even want to waste my time watching YouTube videos of people pointing out how much it is a disappointment. I thought House of the Dragon was going to be terrible (haven't watched), but it's getting decent reviews. Still won't watch because I refuse to consume anything by the fatman that isn't a part of the ISoIaF.

  2. #422

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinarius View Post
    Another article that heavily criticizes the writing of this show:
    https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/en...4c989d2780ebbf
    I love the irony of criticizing the writing yet getting the cost of the show wrong.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #423

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinarius View Post
    Seems the forgot to give him a red cap.
    That seems like a very bizarre misrepresentation of the Numenoreans' grudge against the elves, which as I understand it (but my knowledge of Tolkien is extremely limited) is basically anger at the fact that the elves are immortal and they are not. Which, honestly, is an attitude it's a bit hard to fault them for.

    Essentially, it's more similar to the backstory of the War in Heaven from 4th edition 40k; the short-lived Necrontyrs' envy of the Old Ones' longevity drove them to genocidal fury.

  4. #424

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    That seems like a very bizarre misrepresentation of the Numenoreans' grudge against the elves, which as I understand it (but my knowledge of Tolkien is extremely limited) is basically anger at the fact that the elves are immortal and they are not. Which, honestly, is an attitude it's a bit hard to fault them for.

    Essentially, it's more similar to the backstory of the War in Heaven from 4th edition 40k; the short-lived Necrontyrs' envy of the Old Ones' longevity drove them to genocidal fury.
    The grudge for longevity makes more sense for the rulers rather than the common people. You need different reasons for them.
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #425

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    That seems like a very bizarre misrepresentation of the Numenoreans' grudge against the elves, which as I understand it (but my knowledge of Tolkien is extremely limited) is basically anger at the fact that the elves are immortal and they are not. Which, honestly, is an attitude it's a bit hard to fault them for.

    Essentially, it's more similar to the backstory of the War in Heaven from 4th edition 40k; the short-lived Necrontyrs' envy of the Old Ones' longevity drove them to genocidal fury.
    That is correct, the Numenoreans began to envy the 'immortality' of the Elves. This was part of the theme of Death and the desire for deathlessness, and not (or no longer) recognizing that Death is the gift of God to Men.
    But obviously Tolkien was lacking sense as a writer, and did not know what was necessary to tell a tale, unlike Amazon's people...

  6. #426

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    That is correct, the Numenoreans began to envy the 'immortality' of the Elves. This was part of the theme of Death and the desire for deathlessness, and not (or no longer) recognizing that Death is the gift of God to Men.
    But obviously Tolkien was lacking sense as a writer, and did not know what was necessary to tell a tale, unlike Amazon's people...
    It does seem to me that Tolkien has a different moral logic than most modern speculative fiction writers. The Numenoreans are depicted as being inherently in the wrong for defiance of divine will even if said will screws them over; an attitude unlikely to be shared by modern writers.

    If Tolkien's Legendarium had been written by modern JRPG writers, then probably Melkor/Sauron would be "well-intentioned extremist"-type anti-villains and Eru Illuvatar would be the true final antagonist.
    For example:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It's not a perfect analogy, but take the plot of Xenoblade Chronicles and replace Egil with Sauron and Zanza with Eru Illuvatar

  7. #427
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    The Numenoreans are depicted as being inherently in the wrong for defiance of divine will even if said will screws them over
    Well they are not being screwed over though are they.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #428
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The grudge for longevity makes more sense for the rulers rather than the common people. You need different reasons for them.
    Not really, on the contrary the sentiment against the Ban and the envy for the Elven privileges found a lot of support in the regular population, as Ar-Pharazon rebellion has clearly demonstrated. Elves stealing "trade routes" is again utter BS and has no base in lore, but it's rather a cheap attempt at catching on a very modern sentiment about immigrants stealing "our" works. Once again, bad scripting being bad scripting.

    However, the show seems to be quite popular among those who have very little knowledge of the lore; I happened talking about the show with 3 friends of mine and all of them seemed to be enthusiast of it (they were a bit less once I told them about the obvious plot holes and lore abuses), but still I was surprised, since ATL two of them are all but fantasy fans. I have to say that the AD work done by Amazon on their own platforms have worked very well in any case.
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  9. #429
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Not really, on the contrary the sentiment against the Ban and the envy for the Elven privileges found a lot of support in the regular population, as Ar-Pharazon rebellion has clearly demonstrated
    Of that is ironic thing though Elves are not privileged thay face knowing that they have certain end date.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #430

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    While even some of those who have been generally favourable towards the show have been criticising the origin of *mithril as presented, and the speed with which it must be obtained, the most ignorant, lore breaking line is from episode 5 and has, so far, been largely ignored:
    *Elrond: But I came for mithril.
    *Durin: Why?
    *Elrond: Without it, my kind must either abandon these shores by spring, or perish.
    *Durin: Perish? Perish how?
    *Elrond: Our immortal souls will dwindle into nothing, slowly diminishing, until we are but shadows, swept away by the tides of time. Forever.
    Last edited by Infidel144; September 26, 2022 at 07:53 AM.

  11. #431
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    While even some of those who have been generally favourable towards the show have been criticising the origin of *mithril as presented, and the speed with which it must be obtained, the most ignorant, lore breaking line is from episode 5 and has, so far, been largely ignored:
    *Elrond: But I came for mithril.
    *Durin: Why?
    *Elrond: Without it, my kind must either abandon these shores by spring, or perish.
    *Durin: Perish? Perish how?
    *Elrond: Our immortal souls will dwindle into nothing, slowly diminishing, until we are but shadows, swept away by the tides of time. Forever.
    Oh lord
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  12. #432
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post

    However, the show seems to be quite popular among those who have very little knowledge of the lore; I happened talking about the show with 3 friends of mine and all of them seemed to be enthusiast of it (they were a bit less once I told them about the obvious plot holes and lore abuses), but still I was surprised, since ATL two of them are all but fantasy fans. I have to say that the AD work done by Amazon on their own platforms have worked very well in any case.
    so maybe the show is okay/good, just the fans (some fans I would say) being too picky/intolerant of the liberties the creators have taken

    Forgive me but the level of scrutiny we see in this thread is ridiculous. that level of scrutiny would ruin any blockbuster of the last few years. (Both Peter Jackson's trilogies included)
    Last edited by mishkin; September 26, 2022 at 08:18 AM.

  13. #433

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well they are not being screwed over though are they.
    Other than by the fact that they are mortal and the Elves are not, which is what irritated them.

  14. #434
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    Other than by the fact that they are mortal and the Elves are not, which is what irritated them.
    Well technically its the opposite. The Elves Fea is bound to Arda and thay have to live with the very real potential they end with it and also the purgatory that is the Halls of Mandos. Men's fates are unknown but they are not bound to Arda.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #435
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    so maybe the show is okay/good, just the fans (some fans I would say) being too picky/intolerant of the liberties the creators have taken
    It's not "liberties" mish, it's a lot of none sense. Liberties are what Jackson took with LotR trilogy, these are just BS, mixing up things, changing completely the sense of the story, radically modifying characters etc. Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the lore knows this.

    Forgive me but the level of scrutiny we see in this thread is ridiculous. that level of scrutiny would ruin any blockbuster of the last few years. (Both Peter Jackson's trilogies included)
    We are here to discuss, not all the comments have to be positive. There's a plethora of lore "experts" here at TWC, and thus it's natural that a lore butchering show like this one is likely going to get many negative comments. Other than this, it's also about the fact that even if one puts aside the lore, the show so far has resulted to be boring and incoherent. And in any case you have missed this comment of mine:

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    I happened talking about the show with 3 friends of mine and all of them seemed to be enthusiast of it (they were a bit less once I told them about the obvious plot holes and lore abuses),
    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well technically its the opposite. The Elves Fea is bound to Arda and thay have to live with the very real potential they end with it and also the purgatory that is the Halls of Mandos. Men's fates are unknown but they are not bound to Arda.
    None of this was know to Men, and only few of the Elves knew about that, so in the eyes of Men it was fairly unjust. Elves were immortal and had access to the Undying Lands, Men didn't. Sauron undoubtedly pumped up these ideas and later used them to the demise of Numenor, but the reason behind them is justified in a certain extent. The main proof of that? Valar not stopping the Men to invade Aman but calling in Eru to decide on what to do.
    Last edited by Flinn; September 26, 2022 at 08:56 AM.
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  16. #436
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    The only critic I trust


  17. #437
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    None of this was know to Men, and only few of the Elves knew about that, so in the eyes of Men it was fairly unjust. Elves were immortal and had access to the Undying Lands, Men didn't. Sauron undoubtedly pumped up these ideas and later used them to the demise of Numenor, but the reason behind them is justified in a certain extent. The main proof of that? Valar not stopping the Men to invade Aman but calling in Eru to decide on what to do.
    Well I agree there was a huge information issue on the part of the side of 'good' that more or less allowed Morgoth and Sauron to have an easy time of things. The Valar at the end of the day did a really poor job of providing information and a so now you are sentient creature in Arda walk through. And their lazy not one but two wars with Morgoth and aside from an easy parole they don't s--t to make sure they track down their fallen ex membership in their rush to get to basically nothing about stewardship of Arda in their gated community.
    Last edited by conon394; September 27, 2022 at 11:28 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #438
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    It's not "liberties" mish, it's a lot of none sense. Liberties are what Jackson took with LotR trilogy, these are just BS, mixing up things, changing completely the sense of the story, radically modifying characters etc. Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the lore knows this.



    We are here to discuss, not all the comments have to be positive. There's a plethora of lore "experts" here at TWC, and thus it's natural that a lore butchering show like this one is likely going to get many negative comments. Other than this, it's also about the fact that even if one puts aside the lore, the show so far has resulted to be boring and incoherent. And in any case you have missed this comment of mine:.
    the original work continues there; if some people don't like the adaptations that are made of it, I'm sorry that something they can enjoy has not been created. Tthere are people watching that show only to denigrate it (that's their enjoyment) and people who haven't even seen it gloating over the bad reviews. truly childish behavior.
    Last edited by mishkin; September 29, 2022 at 02:54 AM.

  19. #439

    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    It's not "liberties" mish, it's a lot of none sense. Liberties are what Jackson took with LotR trilogy, these are just BS, mixing up things, changing completely the sense of the story, radically modifying characters etc. Anyone who has a basic knowledge of the lore knows this.
    Exactly the same is true for Jackson's movies, yet they're revered under nostalgia. This is exactly the reason much of the criticism towards Rings of Power is irrational.
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #440
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power. Lord of the Rings. TV Show.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    the original work continues there;
    No, it doesn't That's why so many people dislike it.

    if some people don't like the adaptations that are made of it, I'm sorry that something they can enjoy has not been created. Tthere are people watching that show only to denigrate it (that's their enjoyment) and people who haven't even seen it gloating over the bad reviews. truly childish behavior.
    Again, people is free to express their opinions, aren't they? Just because someone doesn't like bad reviews, it doesn't mean they cannot be posted. Pretending anything different would be a truly childish behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Exactly the same is true for Jackson's movies, yet they're revered under nostalgia. This is exactly the reason much of the criticism towards Rings of Power is irrational.
    Again, no, it is not so. Jackson LotR did not the butchering that RoP is doing. Let me stress the point again, anyone who knows the lore knows exactly what I'm talking about. And in any case pretending to justify the horrible work done by RoP by addressing some other issue, is a weak debating strategy that makes even less sense than people discussing lore without knowing it.
    To me, RoP is a bad show, with terrible lore butchering, boring and incoherent, the rest is honestly irrelevant
    Last edited by Flinn; September 29, 2022 at 03:36 AM.
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