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Thread: They Sold Their Souls

  1. #181

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    They did and other lost or now ignored. Jesus may have referenced them than again we have only the claims of others to that effect. Also I not sure what you are getting at? An average Athenian might or might not be literate (in a comparable or maybe more literate society) but could probably quote Homer, Hesiod (other lost works of the heroic cycle) and Athenian drama and comedy and Pindar or Sappho. It would not necessary make them avid book collector like Euripides. Nor can be certain how much the authors of the works that tell what Jesus cited fixed them.
    I’m not quite sure I follow your objections since I specified that if one believes the Bible to be essentially fraudulent to any extent, then what I said was irrelevant. However, the theological objection to the authority to Scripture is baseless. The idea that there was no Bible until the Roman Church made it is false, not to mention self-defeating even if it were true. Rome cannot claim to base her authority on an arbitrary interpretation of a single verse in Matthew, but then turn around and claim that dogmatic authority comes from her, not the Bible, and she’s therefore free to reinterpret/contradict/disregard the Bible at will. I’m not simply stating a personal opinion either - Luther’s 95 Theses and the Augsburg Confession of faith are just some of the theological writings that reference the authority of Scripture to critique Church doctrine.

    As far as the more recent context is concerned, I already pointed out where the premise of the inferiority of Scripture leads. If Adam was just a literary metaphor, maybe Jesus was too? If Paul was just making general allusions to popular myth and not to history, where does it end? Or is having cake and eating it too considered doctrine? Jesus referenced not only stories from Genesis but the Biblical writings of Moses in general as evidence for his claims. If Jesus felt compelled to cite Scripture, how dare any mere mortal claim to supersede it?
    Quote Originally Posted by John 5
    39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
    45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
    46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
    47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
    If the Church does not believe the words of Moses to be true and accurate, how can they believe Jesus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis 3
    14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    This verse is considered Messianic by any Christian denomination I know of. Just a myth?
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; February 02, 2022 at 11:40 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #182
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Lord Thesaurian,

    conon394 is only winding us up because he doesn't want to believe it, why? He doesn't want to be responsible to anyone let alone God for his life. He prefers being related to an ape before he will ever accept there is God who knows where his heart lies.

  3. #183
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Lord Thesaurian,

    conon394 is only winding us up because he doesn't want to believe it, why? He doesn't want to be responsible to anyone let alone God for his life. He prefers being related to an ape before he will ever accept there is God who knows where his heart lies.
    That sir is rather unkind even chauvinistic. I made it clear here I hold myself to be something between Stoic and Epicurean (in the classical sense). I hold thus my duty to be responsible and moral and respectful to myself and to my family and friends neighbors and community and country and the world and even the pets (insert old school a man who beats his dog is no man at all - does not work for cats they will just leave. But dogs are like abused spouses they keep telling themselves it must be their fault) I have chance to own/co habitat with. But you are right I find no reason to hold myself responsible to a capricious, inept, angry, vicious and callous deity made up by people in a far off land who share few of my values thousands of years ago.

    -----------

    This verse is considered Messianic by any Christian denomination I know of. Just a myth
    In the first yes (just a creation myth). In the Second yes piss poor translation to back fit the NT into the old.
    Last edited by conon394; February 03, 2022 at 05:42 PM.
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  4. #184
    ggggtotalwarrior's Avatar hey it geg
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Personally basics I'm of the opinion god is nothing but a no good doo doo head. You can't disprove this analysis so sadly you're going to have to accept it as fact
    Last edited by ggggtotalwarrior; February 03, 2022 at 01:55 PM.
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  5. #185

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The claim was there was no Biblical consensus on creation because the Bible didn’t exist in Jesus’ time. That isn’t true, because scriptures relevant to the creation story did exist at the time and Jesus referenced Genesis several times (unless your position is Biblical scholars made them up later)
    Sorry, regardless of belief, it is a fact that:

    The Bible contains the New Testament, using merely Old Testament is done today in Judaism (any hebrew feel free to correct me on this), some OT books consulted by Muslims too for reference on former Prophets.
    New Testament didn't exist during Jesus Time.
    The New Testament is relating the life of Jesus, so a finished New Testament was only possible after Jesus.
    Therefore The Bible didn't exist during Jesus time.

    Honestly if you insist you can have The Bible without New Testament it's worth of either taking it as not knowing the minimum of the issue or trolling.

    The New Testament is a product made possible thanks to the Events surrounding Jesus Christ entire life.
    The Bible is a product made possible thanks to The New Testament.

    This isn't Rocket Science.
    Last edited by fkizz; February 03, 2022 at 04:26 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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  6. #186
    Narf's Avatar Reach for the Stars.
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    I don't want to enter the discussion all that deeply, this is definitely not my usual sea to swim in when it comes to discussions. I don't even want to weigh in for or against something here. My own beliefs lie with vague things like human goodness, ect.

    ^This is my religion if I were to have one.

    I read on a book once two people having the earth was made in a week(6000 years ago) Vs many million evolution years discussion. Which have been mentioned in this thread.

    When asked: what about all the fossils, what about all the carbon dating ect? How could everything be made in just one week?

    the simple, and to me very clever answer was simply:

    "Well, back then the days were a lot longer."



    Human timekeeping would not yet be a thing, the universe not being done yet could also warp what a day is. Or a day simply being a metaphor for a billion years, I submit nothing here as a theory or answer. If taken literally, it's easy to poke holes at, but as a metaphor, it's quite beautiful.

    It is a cool way of marrying the need for something to make sense, "only" remembered and told through metaphors and stories.I dunno, without having ever felt the need to have all or even some of the answers personally, I just found it a great reply. That's all really.

    Last edited by Narf; February 04, 2022 at 02:06 AM.

  7. #187
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Narf,

    Yes, humans have good in them but not enough to satisfy the One Who created them. No matter how good a human being tries to be, and that is the key here, he or she is so deep in sin within them that trying is no good. We spend our time making excuses when we do wrong like jealousy, envy, telling fibs, breaking the law, stealing among others why? If we are so good why is humanity like that? The heart of the question comes back to the heart of man and woman in that sin has become so natural to do we don't even regard it as sin anymore. The answer to goodness and of sin lies in Jesus Christ and Him dying that sin might be taken away from those whose hearts have been changed by that event at a cross some two thousand odd years ago.

  8. #188

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Sorry, regardless of belief, it is a fact that:

    The Bible contains the New Testament, using merely Old Testament is done today in Judaism (any hebrew feel free to correct me on this), some OT books consulted by Muslims too for reference on former Prophets.
    New Testament didn't exist during Jesus Time.
    The New Testament is relating the life of Jesus, so a finished New Testament was only possible after Jesus.
    Therefore The Bible didn't exist during Jesus time.

    Honestly if you insist you can have The Bible without New Testament it's worth of either taking it as not knowing the minimum of the issue or trolling.

    The New Testament is a product made possible thanks to the Events surrounding Jesus Christ entire life.
    The Bible is a product made possible thanks to The New Testament.

    This isn't Rocket Science.
    The Roman canonization of the New Testament is irrelevant to the original claim that there was no Bible during Jesus time, and therefore no common understanding nor interpretation of Genesis. Jesus referenced Genesis multiple times to an audience, and what he referenced was and still is the Bible.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  9. #189
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by ggggtotalwarrior View Post
    Personally basics I'm of the opinion god is nothing but a no good doo doo head. You can't disprove this analysis so sadly you're going to have to accept it as fact
    ggggtitalwarrior,

    Oh but I can and do not accept what you assert as fact, why? Because God didn't just save me for Himself, He saved me from myself. Now that is a fact that you nor anyone else can disprove.

  10. #190

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The Roman canonization of the New Testament is irrelevant to the original claim that there was no Bible during Jesus time, and therefore no common understanding nor interpretation of Genesis. Jesus referenced Genesis multiple times to an audience, and what he referenced was and still is the Bible.
    Without Jesus, there is no New Testament, given NT is based and heavily influenced by life of Christ.
    Look, without New Testament, there is no Bible.

    Use of Old Testament (which you call Bible) alone is done in Islam and Judaism, which as their names imply, are a religion which is not Christianity. Islam and Judaism follow Scriptures which are not The Bible (Al Quran for Islam, Torah for Judaism, not wanting to go offtopic).
    The religion to use The Bible and mainly New Testament as a central reference is Christianity.

    Do you understand it now?
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  11. #191

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    No one claimed Islam or Judaism use the New Testament. All three do use the creation account from Genesis though, including the Christian Bible. Moreover, Jesus did too. Taught from it as a historical book. So the claim there was no common understanding on that until the Romans canonized the New Testament is false.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; February 07, 2022 at 03:08 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  12. #192

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Of course you didn't mention Islam and Judaism, if one knew, they wouldn't make such claims on The Scripture unless trolling.

    The Bible requires/contains The New Testament.
    Merely Old Testament and its context with no NT is more belonging to Judaism and Islam than Christianity.
    Last edited by fkizz; February 07, 2022 at 03:45 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  13. #193
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    fkizz,

    I'm afraid I have to disagree on that point, why? Because both these religions still await a Messias Who actually came in Old Covenant times. The New Testament confirms His arrival and confirms what the Prophets said about Him thus completeing that part of His story.

  14. #194
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    The Roman canonization of the New Testament is irrelevant to the original claim that there was no Bible during Jesus time, and therefore no common understanding nor interpretation of Genesis. Jesus referenced Genesis multiple times to an audience, and what he referenced was and still is the Bible.
    Jesus refferenced the Torah, not the Bible, there is a massive difference between the two. Furthermore, the old testament exists for referencing and continuity purposes. As a Christian you are no more bound to Leviticus than you are bound to the Koran.
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  15. #195

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Jesus refferenced the Torah, not the Bible, there is a massive difference between the two. Furthermore, the old testament exists for referencing and continuity purposes. As a Christian you are no more bound to Leviticus than you are bound to the Koran.
    What’s the difference between Genesis in the Bible and Genesis in the Torah?
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  16. #196
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Jesus refferenced the Torah, not the Bible, there is a massive difference between the two. Furthermore, the old testament exists for referencing and continuity purposes. As a Christian you are no more bound to Leviticus than you are bound to the Koran.
    Sir Adrian,

    After being saved I wanted to know if our Old Testament was the same as that for the Jews and so I phoned the Chief Rabbi's office in London. Couldn't speak to him but I did speak with the Assistant Chief Rabbi who said that their Scriptures were the same as ours and so he had no problem with our Old Testament. The conversation was very friendly and it left me in no doubt that our Bible of Old and New Testaments fitted together like a well made suit. Of course as Christians whether Jew or Gentile we now live under the New Covenant brought in by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nonetheless there are certain rules that we must still follow by believing what we can read about what God abhors and follow that.

  17. #197

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Didn´t know Eminem sold out too =( I am not into Rap Music, but he has some songs I liked.
    ישוע הוא האלוהים האמיתי היחיד ואני אוהבת אותו

  18. #198
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Sir Adrian,

    After being saved I wanted to know if our Old Testament was the same as that for the Jews and so I phoned the Chief Rabbi's office in London. Couldn't speak to him but I did speak with the Assistant Chief Rabbi who said that their Scriptures were the same as ours and so he had no problem with our Old Testament. The conversation was very friendly and it left me in no doubt that our Bible of Old and New Testaments fitted together like a well made suit. Of course as Christians whether Jew or Gentile we now live under the New Covenant brought in by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nonetheless there are certain rules that we must still follow by believing what we can read about what God abhors and follow that.
    I have no idea who you talked to but no rabbi will ever say there are no differences or that he is ok with it. For one thing the term Old Testament is deeply offensive to any rabbi. Secondly the composition and order is different.

    For instance the Tanakh does not contain the so-called apocryphal books, which are present in the Christian bible like Maccabees, Sirah, the two books of Esdra, Tobit, Judith, and parts of Jeremiah, Daniel, Esther. Then the order is different, Ruth is placed before Samuel and immediately after Judges. Some of the titles are different, which influences the message, for example Samuel I and II are kings III and IV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    What’s the difference between Genesis in the Bible and Genesis in the Torah?
    That's a loaded question. We're not talking about the validity of genesis. The Christian Bible did not exist during Jesus time as a result Jesus never refers to the old testament because it was not a thing. Now, if you want to see the differences between the Torah, which did exist in Jesus' time and the Christian Old Testament, which did not, see above.
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  19. #199

    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    The Christian Bible did not exist during Jesus time as a result Jesus never refers to the old testament because it was not a thing
    Sig worthy.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  20. #200
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: They Sold Their Souls

    That's a legendarily stupid statement hahahahahaha

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