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Thread: Christmas time again

  1. #101
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Of coirse there is basis in the Old Testament for that as the prophets plus the advent of Jesus Christ proves. I mean even the Jews of today still await the Messiah and the Muslims await theirs and it all stems from the Old Testament promises from God. It's just a pity that they and others have missed the boat.
    There prophases of a Messiah i give you than but there is JC in the OT. Certainly none of the convoluted reading you propose for the Able story.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #102
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    conon394,

    As much as I enjoy our encounters the above is just not understandable. Could you just take your time and write in simple English what it is you are trying to say for I want to answer you. For example you have said there is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament and yet you write now that there is. Another example being that in Genesis God tells us that those in the garden had every herb and fruit for their meat proving that meat eating only started after they were flung out of the garden and further indication is that from the tree of life they could have eaten its fruit as well. The only tree that they could not touch was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and live.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    As much as I enjoy our encounters the above is just not understandable. Could you just take your time and write in simple English what it is you are trying to say for I want to answer you. For example you have said there is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament and yet you write now that there is. Another example being that in Genesis God tells us that those in the garden had every herb and fruit for their meat proving that meat eating only started after they were flung out of the garden and further indication is that from the tree of life they could have eaten its fruit as well. The only tree that they could not touch was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and live.

    Please tell me where in your bible it actually states that 25th December was the date of jesus's birthday? I want the exact location in the bible please.

  4. #104
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    As much as I enjoy our encounters the above is just not understandable. Could you just take your time and write in simple English what it is you are trying to say for I want to answer you. For example you have said there is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament and yet you write now that there is. Another example being that in Genesis God tells us that those in the garden had every herb and fruit for their meat proving that meat eating only started after they were flung out of the garden and further indication is that from the tree of life they could have eaten its fruit as well. The only tree that they could not touch was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and live.

    As always I do check my posts and no any first draft is not always pretty. I think you could infer I had not surprisingly altered my position stated many time there is no Jesus as you understand in the text of the OT.

    ----------------


    @Sogod - you realize even biblical literalists know the tradition date is a made up guess.
    Last edited by conon394; January 30, 2023 at 08:22 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #105
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sogdog View Post
    Please tell me where in your bible it actually states that 25th December was the date of jesus's birthday? I want the exact location in the bible please.
    Sogdog,

    It says nowhere in the Bible the exact time of Jesus birth and for sure it wasn't the 25th of December. That said the important thing is that He was born at all to be as promised the only Sacrifice for our sins.

  6. #106
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    It says nowhere in the Bible the exact time of Jesus birth and for sure it wasn't the 25th of December.
    But it does manage to get year wrong at least once possibly twice and the location...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Religion grows and changes as it answers new issues. First there was no circumcision, then there was circumcision, then no circumcision again. Human sacrifice was in, then it was out. First the world is made by Gods and jews are polytheists, then they become monotheists and change some of their scriptures to reflect that. Females can lead, then they can't. Holy wisdom is female, then shes not.
    Yes there's a lot of differing fads that come and go because simply because of gossip or wtv, St. Paul was able to acknowledge that, play with that hand and differentiate trends that come and go from the more universalistic principles.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    @Basics, just going over a few points earlier 9the conversation moved on before I posted this).

    There were no Christians until after Jesus death, scripture says so (Acts 11:26). Paul never uses the word AFAIK. Jesus never did. It is an innovation. Its unscriptural to claim anything else.

    Paul calls his listeners "Assembly of God" or suchlike. If you follow Paul's religion, maybe call yourself part of the Assembly of God? He did.

    Jesus called his followers disciples. From them he chose some apostles, others claimed to be appointed apostles after he died. He never called them Christians. He specifically identified his community as the people of Israel, and sent apostles to the tribes of Israel (Matthew 10:5).

    Only years after people saw the Risen Christ (not something Jesus ever called himself before he died) did they start a mission to the gentiles, and then only after a fight among the apostles.

    Jesus never called himself Christ either. Thats an innovation that happened after he died too. Basically the living Jesus never preached a Christian gentile church. That was innovated after he died. He was a Jewish Rabbi preaching almost exclusively to jews, and was very guarded and evasive when speaking to gentiles. When he was asked point blank in public if he was the messiah, he dodged the question.

    I am only quoting scripture here, if you have a problem with what Jesus said, take it up with him.
    Last edited by Cyclops; January 31, 2023 at 02:43 PM. Reason: confused posting
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #109
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Cyclops,

    Where in the Bible does it call us saints?
    The New Testament writers draw their use of the word saints (“holy ones”) from the Old Testament (e.g., Exod 31:13; Lev 11:45; 19:2; Dan 7:18, 27). Believers began to be called Christian at Antioch so saints or disciples or Christians are one and the same people. Indeed as Paul correctly says they are part of the people whom God had saved from their sin, the Assembly of God. As for us Gentiles God says through Hosea, " Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’" 26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’"

    As for Jesus and Who He is, that comes from what the reply was when He asked the disciples who they thought He was. " You are the Christ the Son of the Living God.." to which He replied that on that Rock He would build His church. As far as us Gentiles were concerned there were a few that believed on Jesus and did follow him. Both Mark and Timothy's mothers were Gentiles as were Cornelius and Lydia and the Magi who came from the East to worship Him. In fact Jesus' last commands to the disciples were to go out and preach the Gospel to all the nations which they did, Paul being chosen to be at the forefront of that.

    How did Jesus respond when asked if he was the Messiah?
    In His arraignment before Caiaphas, He was asked, "Art thou the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Blessed?" He answered, "I am." (Mark 14:61, 62.) Jesus declared His Messiahship by direct testimony. One of the first instances when Jesus disclosed His true identity was with Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin.

    Sorry Cyclops but I have no problem at all with what is written.

  10. #110
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    One of the first instances when Jesus disclosed His true identity was with Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin
    You do read the bible - you claim to again and again but I thinking not. Nicodemus appears in John 3 and is clearly described as a Pharisee which of course makes his name Greek patently ridiculous - and not just any Greek name but one with meaning this not just be the equivalent of tom dick or harry. This is story made for gentiles by a well educated Hellenistic elite certainly not by some person hanging about with Jesus.
    Last edited by conon394; February 01, 2023 at 07:47 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    ...

    Sorry Cyclops but I have no problem at all with what is written.
    Not even the contradictions? No Christians before the death of Christ, how can Abel be a Christian?

    There are four contradictory accounts of the trial (or in John, interview) by the Sanhedrin, and in Matthew and Luke Jesus makes no claim to being a Messiah. Are they wrong?

    John has the last supper on the eve of Passover, the other three on Passover. Which is wrong?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  12. #112
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Cyclops,

    Abel is the first Christian or saint because God pronounced him righteous before Himself and as the other saints made the same their sin would be cleared at the cross where Jesus shed His blood for them as will happen to all the others born after the date of His crucifixion.

    In His arraignment before Caiaphas, He was asked, "Art thou the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Blessed?" He answered, "I am." (Mark 14:61, 62.) Jesus declared His Messiahship by direct testimony. One of the first instances when Jesus disclosed His true identity was with Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin.

    In Jewish tradition, each 24-hour period begins at sunset, hence the morning is really the middle of the day. Thus Shabbat begins in the evening, as do all the festivals. This order curiously sets us apart from non-Jewish dating systems and could be considered a defining feature of the Jewish calendar. So as we see a day being from midnight in the Jewish system it began on what we call the eve before midnight so each account is quite correct. It's only a contradiction if you want to make it so.

  13. #113
    Sogdog's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Sogdog,

    It says nowhere in the Bible the exact time of Jesus birth and for sure it wasn't the 25th of December. That said the important thing is that He was born at all to be as promised the only Sacrifice for our sins.

    So if I understand you christianity made up the birth of jesus in December. So why is this date important to you christians? I wonder what else the bible made up?
    Sin: a concept made up by religion so it can hook you into accepting it's help. lol
    An immortal getting "killed" is nothing to write home about to be honest, it is kind of expected. And sure as hell jesus wakes up three days later which means he did not die. It is that simple really.

  14. #114
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Abel is the first Christian or saint because God pronounced him righteous before Himself and as the other saints made the same their sin would be cleared at the cross where Jesus shed His blood for them as will happen to all the others born after the date of His crucifixion.
    That really makes no sense unless you are trying post fix not just the NT but the thinking of Christian fathers unto the old testament.

    In His arraignment before Caiaphas, He was asked, "Art thou the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Blessed?" He answered, "I am." (Mark 14:61, 62.) Jesus declared His Messiahship by direct testimony. One of the first instances when Jesus disclosed His true identity was with Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin.
    Good they kept stenographic records of these kind of proceedings back than then put them in the open access archives - wait no?

    Again Nicodemus strains credulity give his supposed - and one suspects the author had no good sense of the politics of the time in Judea.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #115
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    conon394,

    Well, as it happens the Jews were meticulous when it came to recording their history especially about their God and their prophets so why wouldn't other Jews have written about Jesus as John points out? The reason Judaism still doesn't accept that Jesus is their Messias is because He was not a military leader regaining and increasing their once held empire.

  16. #116
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Well, as it happens the Jews were meticulous when it came to recording their history especially about their God and their prophets so why wouldn't other Jews have written about Jesus as John points out? The reason Judaism still doesn't accept that Jesus is their Messias is because He was not a military leader regaining and increasing their once held empire.
    Hah ha what empire?

    IN any case lots of people write stuff basiscs. But nobody had the means to meticulously record private conversations on the fly as it were and nobody took stenographic notes of thinks verbatim - and certainly not the people Jesus is supposed to have been hanging about with most of whom could likely not even read.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #117
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    conon394,

    Under King David Israel expanded a fair deal, greater then what it is today, but because of its sin God as we read took away the land in great proportion to what it is today. That said it gives me great contentment to know that you were around at that time to actually know and see what people could do for after all, all I can do is read about it.

  18. #118
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Under King David Israel expanded a fair deal, greater then what it is today
    Archeology says otherwise. Biblical David is A grade propaganda and projection. I grant later a couple centuries under the Omrides Israel was a decent sized reginal state. But in a neighborhood that includes Assyria nothing you would call an Empire and Judea a backwater.

    That said it gives me great contentment to know that you were around at that time to actually know and see what people could do for after all, all I can do is read about it.
    Is that sarcasm i feel. The simple fact is people had very little means to take notes or record things on the fly. The very best way would be being literate and wealthy enough to afford a wax tablet book - at that is tiny fraction of of any ancient population and very smaller out of the people we are old Jesus was hanging about with. Literacy was not really a think. That I also know the gospels are a sophisticated product of Hellenic literature not the random writing of some Aramaic speaking but can't read guy. The simple fact is the ability to write, write well and the ability to take meaningful notes and means to so are profoundly rare in the classical world.

    all I can do is read about it
    You can also read the Alexander romance do you believe those tales as well? At least Alexander is a well attested real person.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #119
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    conon394,

    It's funny how in one posting you say that there were multiple writings about Jesus and yet here you are saying they were all numpties who could neither read nor write, which is it? How did the Jews ever manage to do any business if that were the case?

  20. #120
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Hah ha what empire?
    In this one area, I'll grant him. An empire is really just the domination of one group by another group, usually by military means. The Israelites certainly did hold sway over other tribes and peoples in their sphere of influence, so maybe a small empire. But you are right that they were no match for larger empires in the region, like the neo-Assyrians and the neo-Babylonians, which they eventually fell to.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Well, as it happens the Jews were meticulous when it came to recording their history
    No, they were compelled by an existential threat to write down their oral mythology. That doesn't make it history.

    The biblical stories being not-literally-true myths doesn't make them less important. Mythic literalism does great disservice to your religion, and to the poetic value of Biblical tales. If you feel agitated by peoples' criticism of Biblical literalism based on what we know about the ancient world through archaeology and social science, consider taking a non-literal approach to your religion's mythology. It will help you feel less out of place in the modern world.

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