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Thread: Christmas time again

  1. #81
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    We're talking about biblical inerrancy and infalibility not the Oxford definition of inerrant. Different concepts cope, completely different concepts.

    Let me break it down for you so you can understand what we are discussing.

    Biblical inerrancy = the bible contains the inerrant word of God. TRUE
    Biblical infallibility = the bible is the perfect word of God in its entirety and completely free of contradictions and misinterpretation. FALSE

    prodromos claims the bible in infallible. It's not, and you agreed with me when you admitted that there are wrong interpretations of the bible. An infallible bible cannot be misinterpreted.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Biblical inerrancy = the bible contains the inerrant word of God.
    Biblical infallibility = the bible is the perfect word of God in its entirety and completely free of contradictions and misinterpretation.
    For the record, that's not how I'd define those terms. You're confusing the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture with unrelated concepts like its sufficiency and perspicuity.
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  3. #83
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    To those who are born again of the Spirit of God the Bible is both inerrant and infallible and has to be otherwise it cannot be the word of God. Not only is it the Door to Salvation, it is also a guiding Light for those who are saved on their personal journey towards that great Day when they will join their Saviour in the New Heaven and Earth. Everything that is required for that purpose is contained therein and nothing else.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Christmas time again

    I think that Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity, especially these days. First of all the holiday is much older than Christianity. The holiday was celebrated a lot in the old Europe in almost every culture and has a lot of names, it is the winter solstice and in ancient times it was seen as the symbolic death and rebirth of the sun or of a sun god. The single connection that Christianity has with the Christmas is the political decizion of the church of early times to overlay it's own holidays over the ancient ones.

    Even most of the Christmas practices, that are done even nowadays, predate Christianity by thousands of years.

    And today for myself I must say that I really do not care. I see Christmas only as a time when the winter is very dark and it is nice to have an excuse to lighten up the darkness. And the whole deal about giving gifts to each other and spent time in the family is something wonderful. It is a time of warmth, family reunion, good food . . . etc. And I find it awesome that nobody from the people that I know even mention anything about any religion or deity. Anyway, nobody knows precisely when or even in what period of the year Jesus Christ had been born. It might have been around July for all we know and the Americans might be onto something.

    Myself I am also keeping the Christmas Tree at least until February, the end off. I find it that the light and beauty of it has a good psychical effect, straight down anti-depressing.

  5. #85
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius.D4 View Post
    And today for myself I must say that I really do not care. I see Christmas only as a time when the winter is very dark and it is nice to have an excuse to lighten up the darkness.
    Speak for yourself northerner

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  6. #86

    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I still don't see what Paul has done to upset so many people because there is nothing in all his writings that is any different to what is in other Books of the Bible.
    St. Paul was pragmatic enough to display supporting structure and logic to a lot of things that could otherwise be easy target. So there's resentment because of that.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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  7. #87
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    St. Paul was pragmatic enough to display supporting structure and logic to a lot of things that could otherwise be easy target. So there's resentment because of that.
    Paul contradicted Peter and James, the Rock of the Church and its head, by saying gentiles could be believers and didn't need to be circumcised. he went to Jerusalem carrying fats stacks of cash and the Holy Spirit moved them to agree with him.

    Paul was an important innovator who wrote new things about Jesus and scripture. However this has been going on since the dawn of time, and at least Paul didn't re-write or fabricate letters.

    Religion grows and changes as it answers new issues. First there was no circumcision, then there was circumcision, then no circumcision again. Human sacrifice was in, then it was out. First the world is made by Gods and jews are polytheists, then they become monotheists and change some of their scriptures to reflect that. Females can lead, then they can't. Holy wisdom is female, then shes not.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  8. #88
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Cyclops,

    When Peter replied to Jesus that He was the Christ, the Son of the living God, it was upon that statement that Jesus said upon that being the Rock was what the church would be built on, not Peter nor James. Circumcision has nothing to do with salvation as Paul saw, certainly not the physical aspect of it, for he quite rightly saw circumcision of the heart as being the true way. Therefore both Jew and Gentile would only be saved by being born again of the Spirit of God dependent on whom the Lord God shall call and that dependent on hearing the Gospel. Religion has nothing to do with that for as is written, " Blessed are those that bring good news..." which is the Gospel and no more.

  9. #89
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    When Peter replied to Jesus that He was the Christ, the Son of the living God, it was upon that statement that Jesus said upon that being the Rock was what the church would be built on, not Peter nor James. Circumcision has nothing to do with salvation as Paul saw, certainly not the physical aspect of it, for he quite rightly saw circumcision of the heart as being the true way. Therefore both Jew and Gentile would only be saved by being born again of the Spirit of God dependent on whom the Lord God shall call and that dependent on hearing the Gospel. Religion has nothing to do with that for as is written, " Blessed are those that bring good news..." which is the Gospel and no more.
    So yes Paul just based on his own visons decided the old covenant was into the dust bin is what you are saying. Sure believe in the OT but I Paul am telling you based on my visions and my visons alone you can read it selectively. Have you actually read Paul the whole body of his letters?
    Last edited by conon394; January 23, 2023 at 12:17 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #90
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Double
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #91
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So yes Paul just based on his own visons decided the old covenant was into the dust bin is what you are saying. Sure believe in the OT but I Paul am telling you based on my visions and my visons alone you can read it selectively. Have you actually read Paul the whole body of his letters?
    conon394,

    If you mean have I read the Bible in its entirety the answer is yes I have. When Jesus died and was resurrected the Old Covenant sacrificial services were no longer required as His sacrifice was what they prefigured.

  12. #92
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    When Jesus died and was resurrected the Old Covenant sacrificial services were no longer required as His sacrifice was what they prefigured.
    Too bad you have no ideal if Jesus ever said that.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Too bad you have no ideal if Jesus ever said that.
    Its OK, Paul had a stroke, thought about for about three years, and then realized he had to write the Scripture that proved it was so.

    Peter was stated in Scripture to be the Rock of the Church, and James its stated head? Sorry, Scripture card.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #94
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Too bad you have no ideal if Jesus ever said that.
    conon394,

    At the Last Supper Jesus took bread and broke it saying, " This is my body......" Why did He say that? They all had come from the Temple where they sacrificed birds or fowl to eat this Supper because it was Passover. He was telling them that in, " My body...." He was the Passover, the Sacrifice, the Real Sacrifice to be made for the sins of men. He was about to complete what had been foretold by God in the garden as well as foretold by all the prophets since then. The story of the Last Supper on the night before Christ's crucifixion is reported in four books of the New Testament (Matthew 26:17–29; Mark 14:12–25; Luke 22:7–38; and I Corinthians 11:23–25). Apart from Paul and Luke, the two writers were there at the Supper and no doubt when Luke made his investigation spoke to the others who confirmed what was said by Jesus. How many writers will it take you to accept that?

    Cyclops,

    When Peter spoke on behalf of the others present in reply to Jesus asking them Who He was, Peter said speaking for them all, " You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." It was this reply that Jesus would build His church on not Peter himself. Yes Peter was called a rock for saying it but so were the others who believed the same, how? Because when we read of the foundation stones or rocks of the New Jerusalem these foundations are named after the twelve with Jesus being the Chief Cornerstone.

    Now concerning the position of Peter and James why did james become the leader of the church at Jerusalem? It was because if Jesus actually was the King of the Jews and now gone James being His brother was the apperent heir and the disciples accepted this. So, Jesus Christ is the Rock of the church and is the central foundation of it for there is no other on which it could be built unless that other be false.

    Now as for Paul having a stroke on the Damascus Road, it is quite possible. It doesn't take away from the fact that his life from then took a complete turnaround. I have had two mini-strokes yet nothing spectacular has happened to me as I was saved years before.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Christmas time again

    On a side note I must say that without Paul the Christianity would have remained a minor Jewish cult. Pretty much Paul had rewrote the Christianity and made it attractive for people who were not Jewish. Let's have a look:

    First, with respect to the book that stands at the foundation of the Christian religion, the New Testament. Without Paul, the New Testament would be radically different, if it had come into existence at all. The New Testament contains a total of 27 books written by early Christian leaders for other Christian communities and individuals. Of these 27 books, 13 claim to be written by the apostle Paul (although scholars think that some of these 13 are pseudonymous, written by followers of Paul in his name). One other book--the epistle to the Hebrews--was accepted as part of Scripture because early church fathers thought it was written by Paul. One other book--the Acts of the Apostles--was largely written about Paul. That means that 15 of the 27 books, in one way or another, are directly tied to Paul. And that's not counting the books, such as the epistle of James, that appear to be reacting to Paul's teachings, or others such as 1 Peter or the Gospel of Mark, which appear to be influenced by his ideas. All told, it is safe to say that without Paul, there would be nothing like the New Testament as we know it today.

    Second, with respect to the development of Christian beliefs and theology:
    without Paul, the distinctive teachings of Christianity may never have developed. According to our most reliable ancient records, Jesus preached about the coming of God's kingdom, when God would overthrow the forces of evil and establish a utopian kingdom here on earth, to be ruled by his special representative, the messiah.

    Paul, however, transformed this proclamation of Jesus to the proclamation about Jesus, teaching that what really mattered for a human's relationship with God was not repentance from sin (Jesus' own emphasis), but the death and resurrection of Jesus himself. Anyone who trusted Christ's death and accepted the fact of his resurrection would be right with God, and so would enter into God's kingdom when it arrived. And most important, this was true of all people, whether Jew or Gentile. For Paul--and this was a radical teaching at the time, even if it seems commonplace today--a person did not have to become a Jew in order to be a Christian. For in Christ, God's promises are fulfilled to all people, both Jew and Gentile, on equal terms; it is through his death that people are reconciled with God.

    Third, with respect to the spread of Christianity: without Paul, the Christian mission, which eventually overtook the entire Roman empire, may never have happened as it did. As one of the earliest, the best known, and arguably the most effective of early Christian missionaries, Paul established churches in key urban areas of the northern Mediterranean, especially in Asia Minor (modern Turkey), Macedonia, and Achaia (modern Greece). These churches then grew and spread, leading to the Christianization of many of the provinces of the Roman Empire. It took several centuries, but eventually this new religion became the official religion of the Empire itself.

    What is particularly important is that for Paul, this Christian mission was to go not simply to Jews scattered throughout the world, but to both Jews and Gentiles. And in fact, in Paul's churches, most of the converts were Gentile--former pagans (one-time adherents of the various polytheistic religions of the Roman world). Within a generation or so of Paul's death, the vast majority of all converts were from the ranks of paganism. Had this shift from Jew to Gentile never happened, arguably the conversion of the Roman empire would never have taken place, since Christianity would have remained a form of Judaism, not a religion open to all peoples.

    https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/chr...hout-paul.aspx
    Summa Summarum: What we call today Christianity is not actually the religion created by Jesus but a rewritten version of it by Paul a very brilliant PR guy. Even at it's core and at the most fundamental level of all things, the part that: Jesus died to cleanse us of sins . . . is a lie, nothing more than Paul's PR stunt.

    That is the equivalent of never having heard what Trump had to say or his "genial" ideas . . . but you have heard what his public relation team had filtered and adapted for you to be on your liking. You never heard the real thoughts of the man itself but you have heard plenty of propaganda about what the man might have told and meant.

    And when at it's core the Christianity itself is a denaturation of Jesus teachings, what the heck Christianity has to do with the ancient and honored holiday of the Winter Solstice?
    Last edited by Darius.D4; January 26, 2023 at 06:02 PM.

  16. #96
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Darius.D4,

    Then you are what Peter calls a mocker. Paul did not invent Christianity at all, rather after his conversion he reinforced it in his preaching and letters. The very first Christian or Saint as they were known then was Abel being made righteous by God on account that one day his sins would be cleared at the cross by the blood shed by Jesus Christ for him as well as many others. That Jesus Christ was crucified is undeniable so there's no lie in that. To know why He was crucified comes only by God to a person and in their experience as mine it is no lie. What is also clear is that one day, " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Then you will see whether it's a lie or not.

  17. #97
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    The very first Christian or Saint as they were known then was Abel being made righteous by God on account that one day his sins would be cleared at the cross by the blood shed by Jesus Christ for him as well as many others.
    Wow that is completely made up Able is rigious before god in the actual present tense of the Bible - no Jesus needed.

    That Jesus Christ was crucified is undeniable so there's no lie in that.
    Well technically given that your only source is the gospel's and they lack any external supporting evidence...


    ----------------

    @Darius.D4

    And when at it's core the Christianity itself is a denaturation of Jesus teachings, what the heck Christianity has to do with the ancient and honored holiday of the Winter Solstice?
    Everyone likes a good holiday in the middle of winter. And there not much farm work to be done so everyone is going to have one thereabouts. Religious sanction of one form another gets the boss man to even if grudgingly agree and maybe even kick back a little to the lowest.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #98
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    conon394,

    God made Abel righteous because of the offering that man made to God, it being a shadow of the True Lamb of God Who would be the real Sacrifice for his sin. His account would be cleared on that day when the blood of the Lamb was shed at Calvary.

  19. #99
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    God made Abel righteous because of the offering that man made to God, it being a shadow of the True Lamb of God Who would be the real Sacrifice for his sin. His account would be cleared on that day when the blood of the Lamb was shed at Calvary.
    Back fitting the NT on too the OT. There is basis in the OT for that understanding of the story.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #100
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Christmas time again

    conon394,

    Of coirse there is basis in the Old Testament for that as the prophets plus the advent of Jesus Christ proves. I mean even the Jews of today still await the Messiah and the Muslims await theirs and it all stems from the Old Testament promises from God. It's just a pity that they and others have missed the boat.

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