Christmas time again

[Prodromos]

There is no measure of infallibility for a book. The Bible is NOT the word of God. The Bible CONTAINS the word of God. It is but a minuscule part of the teachings of Christ and of the path towards salvation. As such the bible is inerrant ONLY and ONLY when read within the wider body of the unwritten tradition, and nowhere else. The Bible is never infallible for it is the work of man, of Orthodox Christian priests and bishops to be precise.

This seems to conflict with the official position of the Eastern church:

https://www.oca.org/orthodoxy/the-or...le/word-of-god

The words of the Bible are human words, for indeed, all words are human. They are human words, however, which God Himself inspired to be written in order to remain as the scriptural witness to Himself. As human words, the words of the Bible contain all of the marks of the men who wrote them, and of the time and the culture in which they were written. Nevertheless, in the full integrity of their human condition and form, the words of the Bible are truly the very Word of God.

The Bible is truly the Word of God in human form because its origin is not in man but in God, Who willed and inspired its creation. In this sense, the Bible is not like any other book. In the Bible, in and through the words of men, one finds the self-revelation of God and can come to a true and genuine knowledge of Him and His will and purpose for man and the world. In and through the Bible, human persons can enter into communion with God.

All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3.16–17).

It is the faith of the Orthodox Church that the Bible, as the divinely-inspired Word of God in the words of men, contains no formal errors or inner contradictions concerning the relationship between God and the world.

[antaeus]

So the various writers are automatons?

[basics]

So the various writers are automatons?

antaeus,

Our story or history has always been about what God did in us for His good pleasure. Every single aspect was preordained before He made the worlds and us. So, the story is about Him as the central Figure played out in what men do or say in their lives here on earth. Every person who ever lived knows deep down that He exists and yet not one by their own volition was ever willing to admit to it unless God Himself made it possible with the exception of the original two, Adam and Eve. So, for the story's unfolding they not only disobeyed God but disbelieved Him plunging all mankind into sin by which most of the world rests today. It is why the Lord Jesus Christ came into the world as a man so that out of this sin filled world a certain people may not just be saved from their sin but also that their existence will be to live with Him forever. The others will have to spend eternity seeing what they rejected. It was all about God from the beginning and will be forever.

[Sir Adrian]

This seems to conflict with the official position of the Eastern church:

https://www.oca.org/orthodoxy/the-or...le/word-of-god

Literally the first paragraph of your link

The Bible is called the written Word of God. This does not mean that the Bible fell from heaven ready made. Neither does this mean that God dictated the Bible word for word to men who were merely His passive instruments. It means that God has revealed Himself as the true and living God to His People, and that as one aspect of His divine self-revelation God inspired His People to produce scriptures, i.e., writings which constitute the true and genuine expressions of His Truth and His Will for His People and for the whole world..

As I said the Bible contains the word of God but not just the word of God. You cannot claim with a straight face that the Holy Spirit dictated Paul's letters to the Corinthians, for example. The Bible did not exist for the first 300 years of the church and stuff like Paul's letters were included because they contain good advice, but not only good advice, and as a reference (which is why the Old Testament was included as well).

As for the official position of the Orthodox Church, Sola Scriptura is a heresy.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Yet you claim the Bible is contradictory, that what Paul wrote therein goes against God, which is not what the link said. Rather: “the Bible, as the divinely-inspired Word of God in the words of men, contains no formal errors or inner contradictions concerning the relationship between God and the world.”

This is why it’s important to check Scripture before making claims about it. Afaik all Christians use the same New Testament, so this isn’t even a denominational thing.

[Sir Adrian]

Exactly, concerning the relationship between God and the world, not Paul's opinion of some dude. The church fathers may be saints, but they were still people and still prone to sinning and straight up wrong opinions.

Or are you telling everyone that Paul knows better than Jesus, who pretty clearly said not to judge anyone unless you are without sin?

[Lord Thesaurian]

I wasn’t aware the orthodox church claims Paul’s writings in God’s Word are heresy. That’s certainly concerning if indeed what they claim. Anyway. In the example given Paul called out grievous and obvious sin committed by someone which was apparently public knowledge, and encouraged the local church to bring the man to repentance to save his soul. No idea how you glean heresy from that, at least not based on Scripture.

[Basileos Leandros I]

It's not quite the same.

The Eastern Orthodox Church affirms that Sola Scriptura is not enough, both tradition, Scripture and faith go hand in hand, and that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is rather not suited. I wouldn't go as far as describe it above, but the Eastern Orthodox Church is quite against this "only this" view. In the Orthodox eyes, you need essentially everything - written, oral, tradition, faith, action, all of it needs to be combined together.

[Lord Thesaurian]

While God can work through and even redeem anyone (even celebrated figures like Moses or Paul started out as murderers), Scripture plainly says it is the foundation of correct doctrine, above which the teachings of men should not be elevated. It’s untrue the Bible “didn’t exist” during Jesus’ time, as some here have suggested. He referenced and taught about it for most of the time he was here, beginning around age 12 insofar as we know.

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.

45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

[Prodromos]

Literally the first paragraph of your link




As I said the Bible contains the word of God but not just the word of God. You cannot claim with a straight face that the Holy Spirit dictated Paul's letters to the Corinthians, for example. The Bible did not exist for the first 300 years of the church and stuff like Paul's letters were included because they contain good advice, but not only good advice, and as a reference (which is why the Old Testament was included as well).

As for the official position of the Orthodox Church, Sola Scriptura is a heresy.

God needn't have dictated every word of the Bible for it to be inspired and true. The article I cited explicitly describes the Bible as the divinely-inspired Word of God; it then goes on to say that "the eternal spiritual and doctrinal message of God, presented in the Bible in many different ways, remains perfectly consistent, authentic, and true." I'd be interested to see an official Eastern church source describing Biblical apostolic teaching as heretical or sinful, because that just seems so unlikely.

[basics]

Jesus said that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that cometh from the mouth of God. Where is that word if not in His Bible, the Old Testament? The New Testament is a corroboration and witness of all that Jesus believed coming from the Old Covenant. Jesus' preaching was carried on by men who were witness to Him and so the Gospel from Pentecost was being sent by letter to all the infant churches with very little break between His appearing after His resurrection and Pentecost not tens of years later as many claim. These letters being sent to Jewish converts for the main would not have been written in Greek rather Hebrew until the Gentile converts needed translations when they outgrew the Jewish converts.

Paul was chosen by Jesus specifically to spread the Gospel as well as organise the already existing churches wherever he journeyed. Why he was chosen has two distinct causes, one, he was a top lawyer in Israel and two, because he was perhaps the chief persecutor of the church at the time. We read that when the Gospel was told him it turned his thinking on its head something very reminiscent of being born again. In making order in the churches he placed two bishops in each one along with deacons so that there was never any one man being in sole control. This followed God's double witness policy that we find throughout Scripture. Why even when he sent out men in his place there were always at least two. So, why is Paul getting a rough ride especially as Christ Jesus Personally chose him for the job?

[Sir Adrian]

God needn't have dictated every word of the Bible for it to be inspired and true. The article I cited explicitly describes the Bible as the divinely-inspired Word of God; it then goes on to say that "the eternal spiritual and doctrinal message of God, presented in the Bible in many different ways, remains perfectly consistent, authentic, and true." I'd be interested to see an official Eastern church source describing Biblical apostolic teaching as heretical or sinful, because that just seems so unlikely.

Then why did you claim that it was written by the Holy Spirit? You are literally worshiping the actions of man as perfect. Paul made a mistake in judging someone and you're claiming that to be teaching. It's not. It's a mistake.

The Bible did not exist at all until Nicaea and it was created from a multitude of disparate texts solely to solve the instability and growing number of heresies the church was going through at the time? It was never meant to be a perfect book or taken by itself as the sole basis of Christianity. It's purpose is to set common ground rules, not to be the ultimate authority in matters of faith and theology. It contains the word of God but not just the word of God. If everything in the Bible was "inspired" and it was infallible then it would be impossible to interpret it in any other way and Sola Scriptura would not have created 27000+ protestant sects.


PS: Sin (amartia) in Orthodox Christianity is not a transgression against some divine rule or checklist. It literally means "missing the mark". You're failing to live up to a certain standard (that standard being Jesus), not breaking the law.

[basics]

Jesus did say that, " He came not to judge the world,....." yet from the very start of His life when in the synagogues or temple He judged these priests and rabbis for not knowing or understanding what their Scriptures were all about. Did that change when His real ministry started? Not in the least as we can read for he was continually at odds with and condemning those leaders for their contempt for the Scriptures and like the devils they were they had Him crucified. Little did they know that they were doing exactly what they never grasped and yet was quite clear in the Scriptures.

So, what do we make of the New Testament written by people who walked, talked and slept with Jesus? Were they inspired to write their Books or not? Well, having been endowed with the Holy Spirit within each one I'd say that every word they wrote on the subject would have been as though God himself had written them. The New Testament is a verification of the Old and why we must never imagine it to be anything else meaning that the Bible as a whole is the Word of God. It is the very reason that Peter said that no private interpretation was of any value as only by the inspiration of the Spirit could it be understood properly.

The Bible may well have been compiled into one Book as it must have but I would claim that the Books of the New Testament were in circulation long before many people want to hear. So, is there anywhere else that we can get the Word of God outside of the Bible? No, there isn't and that is why Christians hold it so dear to find answers to their varied questions. In other words that Book comes alive in the hands of anyone earnestly seeking God, why? Because it is the Gospel that it proclaims about Jesus Christ which is the Power of God unto salvation.

[Cope]

It contains the word of God but not just the word of God. If everything in the Bible was "inspired" and it was infallible then it would be impossible to interpret it in any other way and Sola Scriptura would not have created 27000+ protestant sects.

The text being inerrant doesn't mean its readers are.

[basics]

The text being inerrant doesn't mean its readers are.

Cope,

Absolutely!

[Sir Adrian]

The text being inerrant doesn't mean its readers are.

We're not discussing inerrancy, we're discussing infallibility. He claims the bible is infallible and perfect. You won't find a Christian alive who claim that the bible is not inerrant in delivering the message of Christ.

[ggggtotalwarrior]

I personally find the Bible to be Peepeepoopoo

[Cope]

We're not discussing inerrancy, we're discussing infallibility. He claims the bible is infallible and perfect. You won't find a Christian alive who claim that the bible is not inerrant in delivering the message of Christ.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Prodromos]

Then why did you claim that it was written by the Holy Spirit? You are literally worshiping the actions of man as perfect. Paul made a mistake in judging someone and you're claiming that to be teaching. It's not. It's a mistake.

I didn't make that claim. What I said was that the Bible was written by men under the inspiration of God. This is identical to the Eastern position.

The words of the Bible are human words, for indeed, all words are human. They are human words, however, which God Himself inspired to be written in order to remain as the scriptural witness to Himself. As human words, the words of the Bible contain all of the marks of the men who wrote them, and of the time and the culture in which they were written. Nevertheless, in the full integrity of their human condition and form, the words of the Bible are truly the very Word of God.

The Bible is truly the Word of God in human form because its origin is not in man but in God, Who willed and inspired its creation. In this sense, the Bible is not like any other book. In the Bible, in and through the words of men, one finds the self-revelation of God and can come to a true and genuine knowledge of Him and His will and purpose for man and the world.

...

Because the Orthodox Church teaches that the entire Bible is inspired by God Who in this sense is its one original author, the Church Tradition considers the identity of the human authors as incidental to the correct interpretation and proper significance of the books of the Bible for the believing community. In no case would the Church admit that the identity of the author determines the authenticity or validity of a book which is viewed as part of the Bible, and under no circumstances would it be admitted that the value or the proper understanding and use of any book of the Bible in the Church depends on the human writer alone.

1 Corinthians 5 is clearly prescriptive, not just descriptive; it not only informs us of what Paul did, it instructs us to act as he did. Again, I'd like to see an official Eastern church source claim that Biblical, apostolic teachings are heretical or sinful.

[basics]

I still don't see what Paul has done to upset so many people because there is nothing in all his writings that is any different to what is in other Books of the Bible. Jesus clearly chose him for a purpose greater than the others in bringing organisation to the church which it lacked somewhat before, why? Because being one schooled in the Law and now of the Gospel there was no-one better chosen to iron out any confusion between the two and could do it in languages that the others didn't have which was so important for the infant churches.