Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Kyriakos]

I agree.

[Ludicus]

Is there no limit to defence of Russia's atrocities?

I'm talking about the West's double standards applied to the carnage taking place in Palestine compared to what's happening in Russia's war with Ukraine.
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Two comments on two sections (1, 2) of the text of the Washington Summit Declaration of 10 July, Washington.

1- “We condemn in the strongest possible terms Russia’s horrific attacks on the Ukrainian people, including on hospitals, on 8 July”.

But they shrug their shoulders at the massacre, assisted by American weapons, in Gaza. Hundreds of new body parts have been pulled from the rubble and the streets of a completely devastated Gaza, where dogs feed on corpses, and are added to the war's tally. They are feet and legs, arms and hands, all the parts that have been torn off or that will have to be amputated to save the wounded, and they are added to another count: that of the largest generation of amputees, many of them children, before our eyes. The Lancet medical journal revealed that the real death toll in Gaza is 186,000 (7.9% of the total population), according to a "conservative estimate" published on 5 July. Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential,
which I quote: “The Ministry's figures have been contested by the Israeli authorities, although they have been accepted as accurate by Israeli intelligence services, the UN, and WHO. These data are supported by independent analyses, comparing changes in the number of deaths of UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) staff with those reported by the Ministry, which found claims of data fabrication implausible”.

A massacre never seen before. The worst of Israel today knows that the world cannot stop even the worst of Israel. Among the worst of Israel is the violence of supremacism, of religious Zionism with free rein, with carte blanche to kill, burn and steal in the occupied West Bank, as well as in Gaza. In fact, Israel has just officially annexed the West Bank, which was vital for the two-state solution, and where the biggest expansion of settlers in 30 years has just been announced. I recommend in Haaretz the text by Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard, grandson of Holocaust survivor Zygmunt Bauman. The title of the Israeli newspaper is enlightening.
Has Israel Become a 'Zone of Interest' Next to Gaza, in Denial of the Suffering of Palestinians?

Half of Israelis believe that the Israeli army should rule in Gaza. There is a huge mass of Israelis who ignore the Palestinians, as if the lives of the hostages were not of the same nature as those of the Palestinians. What happened didn't happen in a vacuum, as Guterres said. It's not just Israel that's worse off, it's the world that's worse off, because of what it didn't do or what it helped Israel to do.

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2- “At a time when international law and fundamental norms are challenged, we remain fully committed to international humanitarian law”.

Article 51 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 on the protection of victims of international conflicts of Protocol I states in paragraph 2: -" “Neither the civilian population as such nor civilian persons shall be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited”

Two or three days ago, the Israeli army indiscriminately bombed Palestinian refugee tents in so-called "protected" territory, killing around 90 to 100 civilians and injuring 300, many of them children. The following day, another bombing, in another location, as reported by the Guardian, in an article entitled "The street was a pool of blood...", from which I quote:

Like many other children, Rita Abu Hammad, a bright and playful eight-year-old, was standing in front of the school that had been her family’s home for weeks, watching the other children’s games, the traders at their ramshackle stalls, the adults talking... “Suddenly, we heard sound of a missile, and then a very strong explosion,” said Abu Hammad, 36. Abu Hammad started looking for her daughter, stepping between the injured, the dead and the scattered body parts, but could not find her. “There were many bodies, including children, women, and men, some cut to many pieces, some burnt alive. The street was a pool of blood. But there was no trace of my child.

As you can see, NATO's apparent devotion to international humanitarian law only applies to Ukraine. The European Union voted in the European elections as if the Palestinians didn't exist. After nine months of continuous carnage, we witnessed the spectacle of a NATO meeting that not only completely ignored them - and more: followed the script of a powerful industry of "organized lies" (Hannah Arendt's expression*), trying to hide the rapid decline of its President's mental faculties from the American people.

No matter how much Europe turns a blind eye, the environmental collapse and the virus of inequality have not forgotten us. It's not just about Ukraine, but about saving ourselves from being pushed into the vortex of annihilation by the greatest existential danger in our history.The key to ending the war in Ukraine is for Kiev to renounce NATO membership in return for Russia's withdrawal from part of the occupied territories.
But the version we're being sold is that the only alternative is to continue the war until Russia is totally defeated or Putin will come all the way to Lisbon.

And so at this celebration of NATO's 75th anniversary, a veritable war summit, Ukraine's "irreversible" membership of NATO was on the table, so that the fait accompli would prevent any attempt to end the war through peace negotiations. The icing on the cake: we saw Stoltenberg once again point to the next enemy of the so-called North Atlantic defensive alliance: the Asia-Pacific region and China. It's a whole horizon of "hope" to lose sight of for the new generations.
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* "The modern lie is the organized one that involves collective manipulation. In the traditional type, the lie is not completely pervasive, and the liar is aware of the meanings of what is said". (Hannah Arendt)

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm talking about the West's double standards applied to the carnage taking place in Palestine compared to what's happening in Russia's war with Ukraine.

You could easily do that without taking away from the condemnation of Russia's brutality in Ukraine. You're not doing that. You're trying to argue that Ukrainians deserved their hospitals to be bombed and their babies blown to bits because only a small fraction of Ukrainians side with Palestinians. Every argument you used in your previous post is chosen to undermine the legitimacy of outcry over what's happening in Ukraine. You don't really care about the suffering in Palestine. You're merely using it as a tool here. It's a truly disgusting approach that you're just trying to hide under calling out hypocrisy because you're called out on it.

[Peresvet]

Separately from the current back and forth, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on Putin’s popularity or lack thereof. Sources are great but I’m particularly interested in the experiences that inform your opinion. I would be surprised to learn Putin doesn’t enjoy at least a plurality of popular support, given how long he’s been around.

Based on your experience, I’d also like to know what you think the Russian electoral landscape would look like if results were closer to what you consider accurate. My understanding is anyone who could replace Putin would continue to prosecute the war in Ukraine with something akin to popular support, potentially with greater competence or success in place of the current leadership.

The russian electoral landscape is largely shaped by television propaganda, since most of the election participants are pensioners who do not read the Internet and alternative sources. The majority of young people and the middle generation ignore elections, and in order to get the required number of votes, Putin has to force election commissions to commit various falsifications, which I saw with my own eyes, such as stuffing ballots and replacing the results of election protocols. In addition, truly opposition candidates, such as Alexei Navalny, who died in prison, are not allowed to participate in elections; they are declared extremists and foreign agents and driven out of the country. And such people do not have access to the federal media. Therefore, the result of such “elections” is predetermined, since people in Russia are deceived by propaganda and believe it, they mostly have low intelligence and lack of critical thinking to understand that they are being manipulated. But the majority simply ignore these elections, realizing that nothing depends on their votes.

[Kyriakos]

That sounds very likely.
But the US has no issue doing business with other countries that have the same regimes and worse. One is even in Nato, lol ^^

[Alastor]

The russian electoral landscape is largely shaped by television propaganda, since most of the election participants are pensioners who do not read the Internet and alternative sources. The majority of young people and the middle generation ignore elections, and in order to get the required number of votes, Putin has to force election commissions to commit various falsifications, which I saw with my own eyes, such as stuffing ballots and replacing the results of election protocols. In addition, truly opposition candidates, such as Alexei Navalny, who died in prison, are not allowed to participate in elections; they are declared extremists and foreign agents and driven out of the country. And such people do not have access to the federal media. Therefore, the result of such “elections” is predetermined, since people in Russia are deceived by propaganda and believe it, they mostly have low intelligence and lack of critical thinking to understand that they are being manipulated. But the majority simply ignore these elections, realizing that nothing depends on their votes.

Thank you for admitting that the people of Russia want Putin.

Of course you are saying they are doing it because they are stupid and easy victims of propaganda. Well, not everyone can be as intelligent and informed as you and the Navalny drones of course. Then again, if you and yours didn't think of your fellow countrymen in such terms, maybe your chosen would have managed to get double digits in support. Either way, whatever the reasons that the naive, stupid and easily propagandised people of Russia want Putin, it doesn't change the fact they want Putin and as such he has the popular support to be president. Exactly like I said.

[Peresvet]

Thank you for admitting that the people of Russia want Putin.

Of course you are saying they are doing it because they are stupid and easy victims of propaganda. Well, not everyone can be as intelligent and informed as you and the Navalny drones of course. Then again, if you and yours didn't think of your fellow countrymen in such terms, maybe your chosen would have managed to get double digits in support. Either way, whatever the reasons that the naive, stupid and easily propagandised people of Russia want Putin, it doesn't change the fact they want Putin and as such he has the popular support to be president. Exactly like I said.

Not all the people of Russia want Putin, but only a part of it, these are mainly pensioners, officials and security officials. Even according to official data on the results of the presidential elections, only half of the Russian population voted for Putin, 76 million, taking into account all the falsifications, which, according to independent calculations, amounted to about 22 million votes out of 76 million. That is, real support for Putin amounts to about a third of the Russian population, 50 millions. The rest deliberately ignores the elections, thus opposing the current government.

[Alastor]

Not all the people of Russia want Putin, but only a part of it, these are mainly pensioners, officials and security officials. Even according to official data on the results of the presidential elections, only half of the Russian population voted for Putin, 76 million, taking into account all the falsifications, which, according to independent calculations, amounted to about 22 million votes out of 76 million. That is, real support for Putin amounts to about a third of the Russian population, 50 millions. The rest deliberately ignores the elections, thus opposing the current government.

Sorry but no. Ignoring the elections doesn't constitute "opposing the current government". It simply means forfeiting your vote. You can't just claim them as being part of your anti-Putin coalition just like that.

Whatever the case, as you yet again confirm here, the people of Russia voted Putin to power. So he didn't "conquer your country" as you initially claimed. Nobody here ever said ALL Russians support Putin, but most Russians do. If that majority is 51% or 90% it makes little difference, it's still the majority. And no matter the validity of your vote stuffing accusations, which I don't necessarily disbelieve, Putin has the popular support needed to be considered legitimate.

[Peresvet]

Sorry but no. Ignoring the elections doesn't constitute "opposing the current government". It simply means forfeiting your vote. You can't just claim them as being part of your anti-Putin coalition just like that.

Whatever the case, as you yet again confirm here, the people of Russia voted Putin to power. So he didn't "conquer your country" as you initially claimed. Nobody here ever said ALL Russians support Putin, but most Russians do. If that majority is 51% or 90% it makes little difference, it's still the majority. And no matter the validity of your vote stuffing accusations, which I don't necessarily disbelieve, Putin has the popular support needed to be considered legitimate.

No, that's not true. Popular support can only be realized in fair democratic elections, where the opposition participates and is allowed into the media. There are no such elections in Russia, discrimination against the opposition is obvious and there are mass repressions against all people who disagree with the authorities. Thus, Putin does not have any proven popular support, since the elections themselves are invalid and illegitimate, they are an imitation. We cannot say exactly how many voted for Putin if a real opposition were allowed to join him, which would have access to the media and television, the opportunity to openly criticize him. He does not participate in debates and is not criticized in the media. Most likely, he would have lost the first fair elections to Navalny if he were alive today.

[Alastor]

No, that's not true. Popular support can only be realized in fair democratic elections, where the opposition participates and is allowed into the media. There are no such elections in Russia, discrimination against the opposition is obvious and there are mass repressions against all people who disagree with the authorities. Thus, Putin does not have any proven popular support, since the elections themselves are invalid and illegitimate, they are an imitation.

And that, right here, is called copium. Putin has been winning elections in Russia for decades. At the very least that should place the onus of proving your claims that he has no popular support squarely in your court. Instead you have gone on and on calling people that vote for Putin stupid and showcasing what can only be described as entitlement and arrogance.

[Peresvet]

And that, right here, is called copium. Putin has been winning elections in Russia for decades. At the very least that should place the onus of proving your claims that he has no popular support squarely in your court. Instead you have gone on and on calling people that vote for Putin stupid and showcasing what can only be described as entitlement and arrogance.

All “courts” in Russia are biased and make unjust decisions. I myself became their victim when I was sentenced to 10 days of arrest for photographing a political event, declaring it “organizing an illegal event,” only on the basis of a police report. Then I challenged this decision in the European Court of Human Rights, which ruled in my favor that my rights were violated by the state and awarded me 10 thousand euros, which Russia refused to pay. In addition, I have personally participated in elections as an observer and commission member for decades and have seen with my own eyes the fraud in elections that make them illegitimate.

[Alastor]

All “courts” in Russia are biased and make unjust decisions. I myself became their victim when I was sentenced to 10 days of arrest for photographing a political event, declaring it “organizing an illegal event,” only on the basis of a police report. Then I challenged this decision in the European Court of Human Rights, which ruled in my favor that my rights were violated by the state and awarded me 10 thousand euros, which Russia refused to pay. In addition, I have personally participated in elections as an observer and commission member for decades and have seen with my own eyes the fraud in elections that make them illegitimate.

Yes the european court of human rights, a western led international organisation, those are totally not anti-Russia... Oh wait.

As for your personal participation in some events, well those are anecdotes. Anecdotal evidence, while interesting in their own way, doesn't tell us the big picture. It does inform a great deal about where you are coming from though. You seem to be politically active, anti-Putin and pro-Navalny. Despite that, you were allowed to be an observer and commission member for decades participating in elections. Interesting, in the Russia you describe you shouldn't have been allowed within 10km of a ballot box and yet, and yet.

[Peresvet]

Yes the european court of human rights, a western led international organisation, those are totally not anti-Russia... Oh wait.

As for your personal participation in some events, well those are anecdotes. Anecdotal evidence, while interesting in their own way, doesn't tell us the big picture. It does inform a great deal about where you are coming from though. You seem to be politically active, anti-Putin and pro-Navalny. Despite that, you were allowed to be an observer and commission member for decades participating in elections. Interesting, in the Russia you describe you shouldn't have been allowed within 10km of a ballot box and yet, and yet.

distorting facts, getting personal and trolling is a typical way of conducting dialogue from pro-putin bots, who you really are. In fact, in Russia, many of Navalny’s supporters worked before the war as members of election commissions and observers from the communist party, for example. But now, when the scoundrel and bastard putin unleashed an aggressive bloody war, most of them were forced to leave the country.

[Alastor]

distorting facts, getting personal and trolling is a typical way of conducting dialogue from pro-putin bots, who you really are. In fact, in Russia, many of Navalny’s supporters worked before the war as members of election commissions and observers from the communist party, for example. But now, when the scoundrel and bastard putin unleashed an aggressive bloody war, most of them were forced to leave the country.

You got personal, not me. If you didn't want me to comment on your anecdotal evidence don't present them.

The rest, I take as further consolidation of my earlier point. Many opposition people are allowed to work in the elections as you put it. Until they run away to avoid the war of course.

[Peresvet]

You got personal, not me. If you didn't want me to comment on your anecdotal evidence don't present them.

The rest, I take as further consolidation of my earlier point. Many opposition people are allowed to work in the elections as you put it. Until they run away to avoid the war of course.

Most of the real oppositionists are currently recognized as extremists, terrorists and foreign agents in Russia, and according to Putin’s “laws” they are prohibited from participating in elections in any way, being elected to deputies, working on commissions, etc.

[Alastor]

Most of the real oppositionists are currently recognized as extremists, terrorists and foreign agents in Russia, and according to Putin’s “laws” they are prohibited from participating in elections in any way, being elected to deputies, working on commissions, etc.

"Real oppositionists" as in those you agree with, as oppose to fake oppositionists that aren't extreme enough.

You have claimed Putin does not have popular support. I disputed that and then you proceeded to admit that Russians did vote for him, but those people are old and stupid.
You have claimed the opposition is not allowed to participate in the electoral process. Then said that you've been participating in it for decades despite clearly being in the opposition.
You have accused me of getting personal for commenting on your anecdotal stories, yet are constantly calling me names and assuming what I am and do.

I really have nothing further to add. I don't even need to try and dismantle your argument. You've done a fine job doing that yourself.

[Mithradates]

The key to ending the war in Ukraine is for Kiev to renounce NATO membership in return for Russia's withdrawal from part of the occupied territories.

Occupied territories? Oh, you mean the Russian territories still occupied by Ukraine.

Putin lays out his terms for ceasefire in Ukraine

Vladimir Putin has said Ukraine would need to withdraw troops from territories Russia claims to have annexed before a ceasefire could begin - a proposal Ukraine's president called a Hitler-like "ultimatum".

So Ukraine should hand over cities like Zaporizhzhia (700k people) and Kherson (280k) and all the other territories that were never even under Russian occupation, and after that, Russia would promise to stand down.

[Peresvet]

Yes, alastor, i destroy all your stupid fakes about "popular support" of putin in Russia, putin have only 30 % support on fake "elections".

[Alastor]

Yes, alastor, i destroy all your stupid fakes about "popular support" of putin in Russia, putin have only 30 % support on fake "elections".

One option was to accept reality, the other was to further indulge in delusions about "destroying fakes" after repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot. Naturally you opted for the latter.

Remind me again about how all those people voting for Putin are old and stupid. It helps make your argument those kinds of comments.

[Peresvet]

One option was to accept reality, the other was to further indulge in delusions about "destroying fakes" after repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot. Naturally you opted for the latter.

Remind me again about how all those people voting for Putin are old and stupid. It helps make your argument those kinds of comments.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...V8zsqxvqH6-NzK this is reality, without your absurd, alastor.
Sociological company Levada Center : realistic rating of putin 38-39%, in group of yong russians - 20%.