Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Alastor]

I've already provided enough proof and you have failed to address any of them. You're merely engaging in a fallacy of yours. Namely fallacy of demanding impossible perfection. The triggered response nature of your posts merely shows a desperate level of failure.

I'm not demanding "impossible perfection". I'm demanding from you to prove your claim. You have provided proof that "a missile fell". But nobody here disputed that. Now how about you prove the claim you actually made. And if it is impossible to prove, maybe accept this is an assumption on your end rather than fact.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm not demanding "impossible perfection". I'm demanding you to prove your claim. You have provided proof that "a missile fell". But nobody here disputed that. Now how about you prove the claim you actually made. And if it is impossible to prove, maybe accept this is an assumption on your end rather than fact.

I see you haven't grasped what we actually talked about from basically any angle. I didn't prove that a missile fell. I proved otherwise that a missile didn't simply fell. The footage shows that the missile was not falling but travelling towards a target. Russia did dispute that. The footage proves them wrong. The available material is so apparent that we can only rule their opposition as a blatant lie. Are we clear on those?

[Alastor]

I see you haven't grasped what we actually talked about from basically any angle. I didn't prove that a missile fell. I proved otherwise that a missile didn't simply fell. The footage shows that the missile was not falling but travelling towards a target. Russia did dispute that. The footage proves them wrong. The available material is so apparent that we can only rule their opposition as a blatant lie. Are we clear on those?

What Russia did or didn't dispute doesn't prove your claim. It's your claim that is under scrutiny here, not Russia's. But go ahead, keep getting more and more triggered and then projecting. It is arguably fun to watch you squirm.

One more time. You made a claim that Russia deliberately struck at a children hospital. That it was their intended target. I asked for proof that it was their intent. You have provided none. That is because you have none.

[PointOfViewGun]

What Russia did or didn't dispute doesn't prove your claim. It's your claim that is under scrutiny here, not Russia's. But go ahead, keep getting more and more triggered and then projecting. It is arguably fun to watch you squirm.
One more time. You made a claim that Russia deliberately struck at a children hospital. That it was their intended target. I asked for proof that it was their intent. You have provided none. That is because you have none.

If you can't confirm that we're clear on the previous points I've highlighted I'm not sure how we can move forward this as you showed confusion about them.

[Alastor]

If you can't confirm that we're clear on the previous points I've highlighted I'm not sure how we can move forward this as you showed confusion about them.

Oh there is no confusion. You made a stupid claim you can't prove and now you are bending over backwards in a futile attempt to save some face. It is really quite clear.

[Loyt]

And your proof of that is of course: "herp derp Russia evil! Trust me brah! Derp derp"

1. Strike at Kievan hospital was deliberate, there are videos of rocket flying into it without interference. Sevastopol beach was hit by wreck of intercepted rocket, it was officially confirmed in russian news.
2. Russia started this war and is responsible for all victims anyway.

[Loyt]

And that shows that Russia deliberately targeted the hospital how? Remember that was your claim. How exactly for instance does it disprove a mistaken targeting?

They hit another clinic same day and several civilian houses.
Are you saying, they just hit in general direction and whoever killed is killed? Isn't it just as bad, a big terrorist strike without purpose?

[Alastor]

They hit another clinic same day and several civilian houses.
Are you saying, they just hit in general direction and whoever killed is killed? Isn't it just as bad, a big terrorist strike without purpose?

Actually, I would more easily believe the Russians launched an indiscriminate attack and the hospital happened to be hit as a result than believe that they specifically targeted the hospital. Not that I have seen indisputable proof of either, but the bar to prove the first claim would certainly be lower than the bar to prove the second.

As for the rest of your claims, I take them just like the ones from previous members with a huge grain of salt. Whenever someone claims to know the intent of people they don't know willy-nilly, it's a pretty safe stance to take.

[StarDreamer]

Actually, I would more easily believe the Russians launched an indiscriminate attack and the hospital happened to be hit as a result than believe that they specifically targeted the hospital. Not that I have seen indisputable proof of either, but the bar to prove the first claim would certainly be lower than the bar to prove the second.

As for the rest of your claims, I take them just like the ones from previous members with a huge grain of salt. Whenever someone claims to know the intent of people they don't know willy-nilly, it's a pretty safe stance to take.

Russians shoot civilians dead in the streets of cities they occupy and you have a hard time grasping that they would continue to deliberately strike hospitals? This is not exactly the first hospital they've attacked with missiles that should be able to strike the target they have set. This isn't an isolated incident but part of a pattern of terror strikes on civilian sites.

[PointOfViewGun]

"An indiscriminate attack" using a cruise missile... I see that we're at the stage of altering military jargon now. Great argument!

Wanna keep this quote for the level of irony it represents as well:

Whenever someone claims to know the intent of people they don't know willy-nilly, it's a pretty safe stance to take.

[Coughdrop addict]

I've already provided enough proof and you have failed to address any of them. You're merely engaging in a fallacy of yours. Namely fallacy of demanding impossible perfection. The triggered response nature of your posts merely shows a desperate level of failure.

Indeed. What we're seeing here is someone literately unable to cope with the reality of Russia not matching up to their view of glorious and mighty but also eternally a victim Russia. They can't accept that Russia's entire strategy is to commit war crimes.

A Russian apologist is not a skeptic open to possibilities, but a denialist who has made up their mind that shadowy, sinister forces have fooled everyone but them and anything short of full agreement is a plot to discredit them.

[Alastor]

Cope harder folks, won't change a thing.

Still waiting for that proof you have that shows the Russians intended to strike a hospital. That it was their grand strategy to bomb that.

[AqD]

Actually, I would more easily believe the Russians launched an indiscriminate attack and the hospital happened to be hit as a result than believe that they specifically targeted the hospital.

Why? It certainly helps Putin in his upcoming negotiation. Are you saying he's unintelligent?


There is nothing more the west would do without further escalation affecting NATO. Bombing sick children is not an escalation, just some useless tears and curses as usual, but it works by proving to Ukrainians he's willing to kill a lot more innocent people, children included, if the peace deal cannot be made more favorable.

I'd rather believe he pretended to hit a military target nearby but intendedly included that hospital in the same attack.

[Kyriakos]

Hitting hospitals is in vogue lately anyway (Israel). This isn't important, in that (despite being obviously cruel) it can change nothing.
One should, in my view, ask what the strategy is here, assuming Nato won't actually send some army. Perhaps we will simply stumble to world war, or maybe the (very likely, by now) Trump win will just force Ukraine to officially concede=go to peace talks where more pieces of it are given to Russia.
You can also forget the Eu getting an army to rival stuff, independent of the US - the US is economically controlling the Eu, so going against it would be suicide.

[Mithradates]

Actually, I would more easily believe the Russians launched an indiscriminate attack and the hospital happened to be hit as a result than believe that they specifically targeted the hospital.

No, Russia wouldnt target a hospital, nooo....

Russia has a history of employing systematic attacks on medical facilities as a tactic of war.[7][8][9] Human rights organizations operating in Syria state that Russian Federation is deliberately using GPS coordinates handed over to them by the UN's deconfliction line as a list of targets. [10][11][12] This became such a problem, that doctors refused to share their coordinates with the UN in an attempt to avoid Russian attacks.[13] Eventually the Russian Federation left the UN program claiming it was in protest of the UN not sharing the list with their Syrian ally, who likewise, engaged in a campaign of attacks against healthcare facilities.[14][15][16][17] Russian state media had been routinely justifying attacks on civilian objects, destruction of towns and inciting extermination of civilian population in Ukraine.[18]

As of 21 December 2023, the World Health Organization (WHO) reported 1,422 attacks on health care reported by their 'Surveillance System for Attacks on Health Care' (SSA) tool.[3]

The WHO, in an article published on 22 February 2024, reported 1,574 verified attacks on health, and the deaths of 118 health-care workers, since the start of the full scale illegal invasion of Ukraine.[4]

As of 4 April 2024, WHO verified 1682 attacks on health care in Ukraine, resulting in 128 deaths and 288 injuries of medical personnel and patients.[5]

As of 10 July 2024 Physicians for Human Rights "Attacks on Health Care in Ukraine" website counted 1442 attacks on health care facilities, out of which 742 destroyed hospitals and clinics, killing 210 health workers.[6]

[Alastor]

No, Russia wouldnt target a hospital, nooo....

Wow, wikipedia has really gone to the dogs. An article that begins by calling the invasion "illegal" as a statement of fact and then proceeds to quote the New York Times and.. the British government as credible sources. I suppose they are going to ask Zelensky to write their articles next.

[Legio_Italica]

We can safely assume Russian commanders would not expend valuable munitions on targets with no tactical or strategic value. Mistakes aside, there are a number of reasons why they might choose to prioritize soft targets like schools, hospitals or apartments. There is of course the punitive aspect of attempting to break civilian morale. More likely though is the objective to force Ukrainians to redistribute limited air defense to cover civilian targets, leaving more valuable strategic targets vulnerable. I suspect that’s what happened to the hospital in Kiev and similar incidents. We should expect these kinds of attacks to increase in frequency and intensity as additional western-supplied air defenses are brought online and sufficient F-16 training and logistics starts to impact the battlefield in asymmetric ways.

[Coughdrop addict]

Wow, wikipedia has really gone to the dogs. An article that begins by calling the invasion "illegal" as a statement of fact and then proceeds to quote the New York Times and.. the British government as credible sources. I suppose they are going to ask Zelensky to write their articles next.

So your assertion is that everyone but Russia is lying?

[Alastor]

So your assertion is that everyone but Russia is lying?

Not everyone but Russia. Everyone including Russia.

[Coughdrop addict]

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukra...ev-war-1923713

mitry Medvedev, Russia's former president and prime minister, said on Wednesday that Russia will seek to occupy "remaining [Ukrainian] lands" even if Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky agrees to the Kremlin's most recent conditions for peace.

Just in case anyone doubts that the entire purpose of Putin's war is to steal land.