Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Kyriakos]

In the case that Trump wins, will there be quick developments in this war?

[Alastor]

In the case that Trump wins, will there be quick developments in this war?

So Trump says. But as always with Trump it's more important to see what he does rather than what he says.

----
In other news the Russians have begun their effort to capture New York...

"First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin."
-Putin, as (mis)quoted by NATO and co

[PointOfViewGun]

In the case that Trump wins, will there be quick developments in this war?

He recently claimed that he would solve it before getting into the White House.

[Ludicus]

So Trump says. But as always with Trump it's more important to see what he does rather than what he says.

----
In other news the Russians have begun their effort to capture New York...

"First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin."
-Putin, as (mis)quoted by NATO and co

Cohen, "This world is full of conflicts and full of things that cannot be reconciled, but there are moments when we can transcend and embrace the whole mess, and that’s what I mean by “Hallelujah””. Ironic, isn’t it?

[Coughdrop addict]

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-mis...attack-1922128

At least 38 people were killed and over 170 injured following Russian missile attacks on cities across Ukraine, including one which struck the country's largest children's hospital in Kyiv, according to Ukrainian officials.
Ukrainian Internal Affairs Minister Igor Klymenko also said that Dnipro, Kryvyi Rih, and Donetsk Oblast were hit by Russian strikes.
"More than 40 missiles of various types" were used in the attack, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in a post on X (formerly Twitter).

Cue the apologists. "Fake news! But if it happened it's completely justified!"

[Alastor]

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/23/e...mea/index.html

At least five people were killed and over 100 injured when missile fragments scattered over beachgoers during a Ukrainian strike on the city of Sevastopol in Russia-occupied Crimea, authorities say. “Unfortunately, we currently have 124 victims, of which three [are] dead children and two [are] dead adults,” Sevastopol Governor Mikhail Razvozhayev said on Telegram.

Cue the apologists. "Fake news! But if it happened it's completely justified!"

[Laser101]

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/23/e...mea/index.html

A does not exclude B. It is quite easy for it to be simultaneously true that large numbers of Ukrainian civilians have been killed in Russian strikes, and that there have also been cases of (ethnically) Russian civilians killed in Ukrainian strikes.

[Alastor]

A does not exclude B. It is quite easy for it to be simultaneously true that large numbers of Ukrainian civilians have been killed in Russian strikes, and that there have also been cases of (ethnically) Russian civilians killed in Ukrainian strikes.

And where did I say otherwise? The point I'm making is its a war and bad things like that happen. And it's both sides doing them.

[Coughdrop addict]

The difference of course being that when Ukraine strikes back at the Russian invaders, civilian casualties are seen as an unfortunate outcome to be avoided. When Russia strikes at Ukraine civilian casualties are the whole point of the operation. Of course you know this and think you're clever by acting as if you don't.

[Alastor]

The difference of course being that when Ukraine strikes back at the Russian invaders, civilian casualties are seen as an unfortunate outcome to be avoided. When Russia strikes at Ukraine civilian casualties are the whole point of the operation. Of course you know this and think you're clever by acting as if you don't.

And your proof of that is of course: "herp derp Russia evil! Trust me brah! Derp derp". I would return the favour and tell you that of course you realise that and you think you're clever by acting as if you don't but I'm not convinced you can even act clever at this point.

[Ludicus]

For a moment, when I saw the images, I thought it was a children’s hospital in Gaza, but then I realized that it couldn't be, because in this martyred region, almost all its hospitals were destroyed a long time ago by the “most moral army” in the world. Even Gaza's morgue network collapsed. I've never heard Biden talk about the destruction of Gaza's health system as "a horrible reminder of Israel's brutality": Biden condemns 'Russian brutality'

Conversely, at the end of 2013, the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) published a poll on Israel’s war on Gaza, which indicated that that only 1% of Ukrainians sided with Palestine.

Who do Ukrainians sympathize with in the Israeli -Palestinian conflict?

...In the USA and Great Britain, the question was similar to that in the KIIS. As can be seen, compared to all these countries, Ukraine is the most pro-Israel.

It's not just Zelensky who dreams of turning Ukraine into a great Israel. The French playboy/philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy drew a set of parallels between Ukraine and Israel on Twitter: "Same values at stake (democracy & liberalism),” “Therefore, same fight. #StandwithIsrael #StandwithUkraine”. BHL is the creator of three films on the war in Ukraine: “Why Ukraine”, “Slava Ukraini”, and “Glory to the Heroes”.

He says: "I interviewed IDF soldiers who went to fight alongside Zelenskyy's army from the very start of the invasion of Ukraine. It's the same war, the same problem in both cases, the same struggle for freedom against tyranny”.

No one should take this man seriously. A few years ago (2015), BHL wrote:

I was in Gaza during the last war, and I saw how careful the Israeli army was with the civilian population, how gentle they were with Palestinians, how cautious they were before entering a house. It was not a war of annihilation. A specific house was targeted and not another, one flat and not the other, one street and the next one was completely intact. They were targeting the rocket launchers. On the other side Hezbollah and Hamas with their bad weapons had no targets. How do you qualify your war without any war targets? In a war, you have the war and the goal of the war”.

Last May, BHL complained bitterly about Israel's "loneliness”:

it is the first time that any democracy has been struck in such a way, that it’s been raped with such cruelty. And it’s the first time when citizens have been murdered, tortured, violated with such sadism and on such a large scale. So this time, I would have expected world solidarity with Israel. It was logical to expect this. It did not happen.

“It did not happen”, he said. What a shameful lie.
And what about Ukrainian solidarity with Palestinian refugees? with a few honorable exceptions, it's almost nil. What do Ukrainian refugees make of Israel's war on Gaza?

Iliya Kusa, a Kyiv-based author and analyst of international relations with the Ukrainian Institute for the Future, wrote last year that for most Ukrainians, the Arab world is seen as “something distant and foreign” while there are many sociocultural and business ties between Ukraine and Israel.

Palestinians in Ukraine decry 'double standard' as Kyiv supports Israel

Names marked with an asterisk* have been changed to protect identities...Hashem*, a medical professional from Gaza who relocated to Ukraine nine years ago, remained resolute in his allegiance to his adopted home when Russia invaded Ukraine...The prevailing narrative in the national media favours Israel and influences public sentiment, he said. Hashem also suffered personally. He said he received threats and discriminatory messages full of hate from individuals who learned he was from Gaza but residing in Ukraine.

[PointOfViewGun]

And where did I say otherwise? The point I'm making is its a war and bad things like that happen. And it's both sides doing them.

One is a case of falling debris of an interception causing random damage on a beach while the other is a deliberate strike on a hospital. It's not both sides doing them in any shape or manner.

For a moment, when I saw the images, I thought it was a children’s hospital in Gaza, but then I realized that it couldn't be, because in this martyred region, almost all its hospitals were destroyed a long time ago by the “most moral army” in the world. Even Gaza's morgue network collapsed. I've never heard Biden talk about the destruction of Gaza's health system as "a horrible reminder of Israel's brutality": Biden condemns 'Russian brutality'
Conversely, at the end of 2013, the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) published a poll on Israel’s war on Gaza, which indicated that that only 1% of Ukrainians sided with Palestine.
Who do Ukrainians sympathize with in the Israeli -Palestinian conflict?
It's not just Zelensky who dreams of turning Ukraine into a great Israel. The French playboy/philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy drew a set of parallels between Ukraine and Israel on Twitter: "Same values at stake (democracy & liberalism),” “Therefore, same fight. #StandwithIsrael #StandwithUkraine”. BHL is the creator of three films on the war in Ukraine: “Why Ukraine”, “Slava Ukraini”, and “Glory to the Heroes”.
He says: "I interviewed IDF soldiers who went to fight alongside Zelenskyy's army from the very start of the invasion of Ukraine. It's the same war, the same problem in both cases, the same struggle for freedom against tyranny”.
No one should take this man seriously. A few years ago (2015), BHL wrote:
Last May, BHL complained bitterly about Israel's "loneliness”:
“It did not happen”, he said. What a shameful lie.
And what about Ukrainian solidarity with Palestinian refugees? with a few honorable exceptions, it's almost nil. What do Ukrainian refugees make of Israel's war on Gaza?
Palestinians in Ukraine decry 'double standard' as Kyiv supports Israel

So just because there isn't popular support for Palestinian independency they deserve their hospitals to be bombed? Is there no limit to defence of Russia's atrocities?

[Alastor]

One is a case of falling debris of an interception causing random damage on a beach while the other is a deliberate strike on a hospital. It's not both sides doing them in any shape or manner.

By all means present your proof the hospital was Russia's intended target.

[Coughdrop addict]

So your belief is that Russia is so incompetent they have accidentally struck civilian targets in Ukraine hundreds of times? Were the hundreds of thousands of reported rapes they have committed all just a big misunderstanding too?

[Alastor]

So your belief is that Russia is so incompetent they have accidentally struck civilian targets in Ukraine hundreds of times? Were the hundreds of thousands of reported rapes they have committed all just a big misunderstanding too?

I'm sorry is that your proof? A pathetic little dodge is your proof? Yeah, that's what I thought. You have none.

[PointOfViewGun]

By all means present your proof the hospital was Russia's intended target.

We have clear footage of the moments before the strike. The missile is clearly a KH-101 missile. It is not showing any sign of thumbling or any kind of movement that would push it off course. It's going straight for the bombing site. Russia claimed that it was "a falling anti-air missile system" which does not fit what we see in the footage. The Russian claim itself, being so far away from the evidence at hand, shows it that it was indeed a Russian direct strike.

[Alastor]

We have clear footage of the moments before the strike. The missile is clearly a KH-101 missile. It is not showing any sign of thumbling or any kind of movement that would push it off course. It's going straight for the bombing site. Russia claimed that it was "a falling anti-air missile system" which does not fit what we see in the footage. The Russian claim itself, being so far away from the evidence at hand, shows it that it was indeed a Russian direct strike.

And that shows that Russia deliberately targeted the hospital how? Remember that was your claim. How exactly for instance does it disprove a mistaken targeting? It doesn't. In fact it doesn't prove anything other than "a missile fell". In other words, you also have no proof to justify your ridiculous claims. You are assuming.

Next.

[PointOfViewGun]

And that shows that Russia deliberately targeted the hospital how? Remember that was your claim. How exactly for instance does it disprove a mistaken targeting? It doesn't. In fact it doesn't prove anything other than "a missile fell". In other words, you also have no proof to justify your ridiculous claims. You are assuming.

Next.

You don't really need to have a video recording of Putin directly ordering the attack himself to know this. An undisturbed missile hitting its target, resulting in partial collapse of a hospital building, can be qualified as targeting the hospital especially when the sender is blatantly lying about it. How it doesn't prove mistaken targeting? Because the strike is in the middle of a city with no military targets whatsoever. Your religious defence of this horrible action is simply mind boggling given the facts of the matter.

[Alastor]

You don't really need to have a video recording of Putin directly ordering the attack himself to know this. An undisturbed missile hitting its target, resulting in partial collapse of a hospital building, can be qualified as targeting the hospital especially when the sender is blatantly lying about it. How it doesn't prove mistaken targeting? Because the strike is in the middle of a city with no military targets whatsoever. Your religious defence of this horrible action is simply mind boggling given the facts of the matter.

Oh yes, it's my fault for asking you to prove your idiotic claims. Not yours for not actually having any proof to show.

Seriously, next.

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh yes, it's my fault for asking you to prove your idiotic claims. Not yours for not actually having any proof to show.

Seriously, next.

I've already provided enough proof and you have failed to address any of them. You're merely engaging in a fallacy of yours. Namely fallacy of demanding impossible perfection. The triggered response nature of your posts merely shows a desperate level of failure.