Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Heathen Hammer]

You sell us natural gas, so that our crazy politicians can avoid regular blackouts affecting all of beloved Europe. We pay you s of money for it. Accept deal, nostrovia,

Dread the day that the green actually is working out. You may tread on the same ice as Dubai is treading on.

Too bad your EU overlords will sell you and your nation to the highest bidder and you better pray it will be Russia and not China.
Also its not too late to realize that "green energy" is a fossil fuel lobby's red herring, you want nuclear power plants if you want energy, not windmills.

[Rhinelander]

I was on a trip to Kiev this December. My airbnb host told me, she and everyone there was waiting for Russia to invade or do something else

[AqD]

Also, bullying Russia is working, unlike what happens with China. Moscow's influence is continuously shrinking and Ukraine, whose major part is now solidly into NATO's camp, is a typical example of this. Belarus will soon follow, I guess. Even in Syria, their position is more fragile than before the outbreak of the civil war.

Sure it's working, but shouldn't we be making friends rather than enemies?

Russia is a secular state and its people hold more or less the same values as we do. If we can't even find common goals to move forward together, what could we do with the rest of countries? Or is our goal to bully and destablize everyone until they collapse and billions turn refugees, like what we did with Syria and Libya?

[Heathen Hammer]

The ironic part is that all the feeble Western "bullying" accomplished was solidify Putin's popularity and give Russia ability to expand her sphere of influence in Eurasia, Middle East and even Africa. Meanwhile Americans suffered a humiliating defeat in Afghanistan (more so then Soviets, who left in orderly fashion and whose proxy government endured for years, while Americans fled in disarray, abandoning men and equipment and American puppet state there seized to exist within hours of Americans fleeing) and its influence around the world is shrinking, so it is simply not in position to dictate what Russia or any other major world power can do. Pax Americana is over and Americans will have to either woo Russia on their side against China (ultimately ceding their sphere of influence to Kremlin), or end up tag-teamed by both of them.

[antaeus]

Sure it's working, but shouldn't we be making friends rather than enemies?

Russia is a secular state and its people hold more or less the same values as we do. If we can't even find common goals to move forward together, what could we do with the rest of countries? Or is our goal to bully and destablize everyone until they collapse and billions turn refugees, like what we did with Syria and Libya?

We're not dealing with the Russian State though. We're dealing with Putin. The Russian State - as it behaves on the world's stage - is an extension of his express desires, anxieties and paranoias. It is Putin's vision of Russia's place in the world, and the lengths he will go to to enact this vision that we're dealing with. In that sense, there is no Russian State other than what he allows.

I have a fairly strong sense, that if Russia had been more representative of it's people over the last 20 years, it would probably be wealthier, healthier and have actual prestige on the world's stage. When Putin has had his more open moments, Russia has grown - only to shrink again when his petulant sense of pride resurfaces.

[Heathen Hammer]

Every state is extension of its ruling class. In the same way, one can say that Russia isn't dealing with West./NATO, but rather with Western-based cosmopolitan banker oligarchy that ruled those countries for over a century.
Putin himself merely represents similar oligarchy in Russia.

[Ludicus]

What does US supposed to do with Ukraine then? Just let Russia annex it completely?

US can't do anything.In my opinion, there will be no invasion.If Ukraine joins NATO, the conflict is inevitable. In an essay published last July, entitled "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians- (use google to search) published on the Kremlin's website, Putin expresses his conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people." In one particularly ominous passage, Putin openly questions the legitimacy of neighboring country borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies land that is historically Russian, before declaring, "Russia has been stolen".

In his essay, Putin even suggests a new annexation of Ukrainian territory after Crimea, stating, "I am increasingly convinced of this - Kiev simply does not need Donbass." Putin goes further, as he leaves underlying the idea that Ukrainian independence ultimately depends on Moscow's consent. "I am confident that Ukraine's true sovereignty is possible only in partnership with Russia".

Then he adds, "It wasn't us who reached the US or UK borders. No. It was they who reached our borders”.

Sadly, what can we conclude? even if the ultimate aim is not, in fact, invasion - the Russian people do not, in the midst of a pandemic and ensuing economic crisis, want a war - the imperial ambitions of Putin are not a bluff. Putin once described the fall of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century". "What was the collapse of the USSR? It was the collapse of historic Russia. We lost 40 per cent of our territory”.

[PointOfViewGun]

US can't do anything.In my opinion, there will be no invasion.If Ukraine joins NATO, the conflict is inevitable. In an essay published last July, entitled "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians- (use google to search) published on the Kremlin's website, Putin expresses his conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people." In one particularly ominous passage, Putin openly questions the legitimacy of neighboring country borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies land that is historically Russian, before declaring, "Russia has been stolen".

In his essay, Putin even suggests a new annexation of Ukrainian territory after Crimea, stating, "I am increasingly convinced of this - Kiev simply does not need Donbass." Putin goes further, as he leaves underlying the idea that Ukrainian independence ultimately depends on Moscow's consent. "I am confident that Ukraine's true sovereignty is possible only in partnership with Russia".

Then he adds, "It wasn't us who reached the US or UK borders. No. It was they who reached our borders”.

Sadly, what can we conclude? even if the ultimate aim is not, in fact, invasion - the Russian people do not, in the midst of a pandemic and ensuing economic crisis, want a war - the imperial ambitions of Putin are not a bluff. Putin once described the fall of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century". "What was the collapse of the USSR? It was the collapse of historic Russia. We lost 40 per cent of our territory”.

If the line is not to be drawn at Ukraine, where else should it be drawn at?

[Heathen Hammer]

If the line is not to be drawn at Ukraine, where else should it be drawn at?

Just like for any other country - around American borders. Anything beyond that is not American taxpayer's problem.

[Prodromos]

Just like for any other country - around American borders. Anything beyond that is not American taxpayer's problem.

But Ukraine and Syria are Russian taxpayers' problem? Lol.

[Heathen Hammer]

But Ukraine and Syria are Russian taxpayers' problem? Lol.

Lack of Qatar pipelines in Syria certainly benefits Russian taxpayer monetarily, and many Russians have relatives stuck in Ukraine, so there's that.

[Prodromos]

Lack of Qatar pipelines in Syria certainly benefits Russian taxpayer monetarily, and many Russians have relatives stuck in Ukraine, so there's that.

And you don't think Americans have financial interests or family connections outside America?

[Heathen Hammer]

And you don't think Americans have financial interests or family connections outside America?

In Canada or Mexico? Maybe.

[Cope]

But Ukraine and Syria are Russian taxpayers' problem? Lol.

Ukraine is a security and economic priority for Russia due to its proximity and historic ties. The same is not true for the US. It was not worth trying to draw Ukraine into the EU's sphere.

[antaeus]

The Ukraine is a US security concern because it is a Russian historic and proximity concern. The US ultimately wants Russia to either come into line, or be so impoverished so as to not be a threat. The Ukraine is evidence that either or both can be achieved. It is a tangible example that the Putin style of posturing strong man oligarchism is in fact fallible, so Ukraine's survival is very much a US security concern.

[Cope]

HH just likes to be contrarian to whatever the mainstream narrative is on the forum.

The Ukraine is a US security concern because it is a Russian historic and proximity concern.The US ultimately wants Russia to either come into line, or be so impoverished so as to not be a threat. The Ukraine is evidence that either or both can be achieved. It is a tangible example that the Putin style of posturing strong man oligarchism is in fact fallible, so Ukraine's survival is very much a US security concern.

Washington's obsession with rivaling Russia does not mean Ukraine is a "US security concern".

[antaeus]

Washington's obsession with rivaling Russia does not mean Ukraine is a "US security concern".

Russia's economy is similar in value to Australia's. They aren't a rival. They're a disruptor of a US led status quo.

[sumskilz]

US can't do anything.

More accurately, the US won't do much, as a matter of cost-benefit analysis.

Russia's economy is similar in value to Australia's.

Pathetic.

Although to be fair, they do have nuclear weapons and people.

[Cope]

Russia's economy is similar in value to Australia's. They aren't a rival. They're a disruptor of a US led status quo.

Russia being incomparable to the US in terms of power doesn't mean that Washington doesn't insist on treating Russia as a rival.

[PointOfViewGun]

Just like for any other country - around American borders. Anything beyond that is not American taxpayer's problem.

Let's all park this slippery slope in a corner of our minds.