View Poll Results: Whom do you support and to what extent?

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  • I support Ukraine fully.

    104 68.87%
  • I support Russia fully.

    17 11.26%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea.

    4 2.65%
  • I only support Russia's claim over Crimea and Donbass (Luhansk and Donetsk regions).

    11 7.28%
  • Not sure.

    7 4.64%
  • I don't care.

    8 5.30%
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Thread: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

  1. #81

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    You sell us natural gas, so that our crazy politicians can avoid regular blackouts affecting all of beloved Europe. We pay you s of money for it. Accept deal, nostrovia,

    Dread the day that the green actually is working out. You may tread on the same ice as Dubai is treading on.
    Too bad your EU overlords will sell you and your nation to the highest bidder and you better pray it will be Russia and not China.
    Also its not too late to realize that "green energy" is a fossil fuel lobby's red herring, you want nuclear power plants if you want energy, not windmills.

  2. #82
    Rhinelander's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    I was on a trip to Kiev this December. My airbnb host told me, she and everyone there was waiting for Russia to invade or do something else

  3. #83
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Also, bullying Russia is working, unlike what happens with China. Moscow's influence is continuously shrinking and Ukraine, whose major part is now solidly into NATO's camp, is a typical example of this. Belarus will soon follow, I guess. Even in Syria, their position is more fragile than before the outbreak of the civil war.
    Sure it's working, but shouldn't we be making friends rather than enemies?

    Russia is a secular state and its people hold more or less the same values as we do. If we can't even find common goals to move forward together, what could we do with the rest of countries? Or is our goal to bully and destablize everyone until they collapse and billions turn refugees, like what we did with Syria and Libya?

  4. #84

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The ironic part is that all the feeble Western "bullying" accomplished was solidify Putin's popularity and give Russia ability to expand her sphere of influence in Eurasia, Middle East and even Africa. Meanwhile Americans suffered a humiliating defeat in Afghanistan (more so then Soviets, who left in orderly fashion and whose proxy government endured for years, while Americans fled in disarray, abandoning men and equipment and American puppet state there seized to exist within hours of Americans fleeing) and its influence around the world is shrinking, so it is simply not in position to dictate what Russia or any other major world power can do. Pax Americana is over and Americans will have to either woo Russia on their side against China (ultimately ceding their sphere of influence to Kremlin), or end up tag-teamed by both of them.

  5. #85
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Sure it's working, but shouldn't we be making friends rather than enemies?

    Russia is a secular state and its people hold more or less the same values as we do. If we can't even find common goals to move forward together, what could we do with the rest of countries? Or is our goal to bully and destablize everyone until they collapse and billions turn refugees, like what we did with Syria and Libya?
    We're not dealing with the Russian State though. We're dealing with Putin. The Russian State - as it behaves on the world's stage - is an extension of his express desires, anxieties and paranoias. It is Putin's vision of Russia's place in the world, and the lengths he will go to to enact this vision that we're dealing with. In that sense, there is no Russian State other than what he allows.

    I have a fairly strong sense, that if Russia had been more representative of it's people over the last 20 years, it would probably be wealthier, healthier and have actual prestige on the world's stage. When Putin has had his more open moments, Russia has grown - only to shrink again when his petulant sense of pride resurfaces.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  6. #86

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Every state is extension of its ruling class. In the same way, one can say that Russia isn't dealing with West./NATO, but rather with Western-based cosmopolitan banker oligarchy that ruled those countries for over a century.
    Putin himself merely represents similar oligarchy in Russia.

  7. #87
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What does US supposed to do with Ukraine then? Just let Russia annex it completely?
    US can't do anything.In my opinion, there will be no invasion.If Ukraine joins NATO, the conflict is inevitable. In an essay published last July, entitled "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians- (use google to search) published on the Kremlin's website, Putin expresses his conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people." In one particularly ominous passage, Putin openly questions the legitimacy of neighboring country borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies land that is historically Russian, before declaring, "Russia has been stolen".

    In his essay, Putin even suggests a new annexation of Ukrainian territory after Crimea, stating, "I am increasingly convinced of this - Kiev simply does not need Donbass." Putin goes further, as he leaves underlying the idea that Ukrainian independence ultimately depends on Moscow's consent. "I am confident that Ukraine's true sovereignty is possible only in partnership with Russia".

    Then he adds, "It wasn't us who reached the US or UK borders. No. It was they who reached our borders”.

    Sadly, what can we conclude? even if the ultimate aim is not, in fact, invasion - the Russian people do not, in the midst of a pandemic and ensuing economic crisis, want a war - the imperial ambitions of Putin are not a bluff. Putin once described the fall of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century". "What was the collapse of the USSR? It was the collapse of historic Russia. We lost 40 per cent of our territory”.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 27, 2021 at 09:11 AM.
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  8. #88

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    US can't do anything.In my opinion, there will be no invasion.If Ukraine joins NATO, the conflict is inevitable. In an essay published last July, entitled "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians- (use google to search) published on the Kremlin's website, Putin expresses his conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people." In one particularly ominous passage, Putin openly questions the legitimacy of neighboring country borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies land that is historically Russian, before declaring, "Russia has been stolen".

    In his essay, Putin even suggests a new annexation of Ukrainian territory after Crimea, stating, "I am increasingly convinced of this - Kiev simply does not need Donbass." Putin goes further, as he leaves underlying the idea that Ukrainian independence ultimately depends on Moscow's consent. "I am confident that Ukraine's true sovereignty is possible only in partnership with Russia".

    Then he adds, "It wasn't us who reached the US or UK borders. No. It was they who reached our borders”.

    Sadly, what can we conclude? even if the ultimate aim is not, in fact, invasion - the Russian people do not, in the midst of a pandemic and ensuing economic crisis, want a war - the imperial ambitions of Putin are not a bluff. Putin once described the fall of the Soviet Union as "the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century". "What was the collapse of the USSR? It was the collapse of historic Russia. We lost 40 per cent of our territory”.
    If the line is not to be drawn at Ukraine, where else should it be drawn at?
    The Armenian Issue

  9. #89

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If the line is not to be drawn at Ukraine, where else should it be drawn at?
    Just like for any other country - around American borders. Anything beyond that is not American taxpayer's problem.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Just like for any other country - around American borders. Anything beyond that is not American taxpayer's problem.
    But Ukraine and Syria are Russian taxpayers' problem? Lol.
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  11. #91

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    But Ukraine and Syria are Russian taxpayers' problem? Lol.
    Lack of Qatar pipelines in Syria certainly benefits Russian taxpayer monetarily, and many Russians have relatives stuck in Ukraine, so there's that.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Lack of Qatar pipelines in Syria certainly benefits Russian taxpayer monetarily, and many Russians have relatives stuck in Ukraine, so there's that.
    And you don't think Americans have financial interests or family connections outside America?
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  13. #93

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    And you don't think Americans have financial interests or family connections outside America?
    In Canada or Mexico? Maybe.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    But Ukraine and Syria are Russian taxpayers' problem? Lol.
    Ukraine is a security and economic priority for Russia due to its proximity and historic ties. The same is not true for the US. It was not worth trying to draw Ukraine into the EU's sphere.



  15. #95
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    The Ukraine is a US security concern because it is a Russian historic and proximity concern. The US ultimately wants Russia to either come into line, or be so impoverished so as to not be a threat. The Ukraine is evidence that either or both can be achieved. It is a tangible example that the Putin style of posturing strong man oligarchism is in fact fallible, so Ukraine's survival is very much a US security concern.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; December 28, 2021 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Continuity.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  16. #96

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    HH just likes to be contrarian to whatever the mainstream narrative is on the forum.

    The Ukraine is a US security concern because it is a Russian historic and proximity concern.The US ultimately wants Russia to either come into line, or be so impoverished so as to not be a threat. The Ukraine is evidence that either or both can be achieved. It is a tangible example that the Putin style of posturing strong man oligarchism is in fact fallible, so Ukraine's survival is very much a US security concern.
    Washington's obsession with rivaling Russia does not mean Ukraine is a "US security concern".



  17. #97
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Washington's obsession with rivaling Russia does not mean Ukraine is a "US security concern".
    Russia's economy is similar in value to Australia's. They aren't a rival. They're a disruptor of a US led status quo.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  18. #98

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    US can't do anything.
    More accurately, the US won't do much, as a matter of cost-benefit analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Russia's economy is similar in value to Australia's.
    Pathetic.

    Although to be fair, they do have nuclear weapons and people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #99

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Russia's economy is similar in value to Australia's. They aren't a rival. They're a disruptor of a US led status quo.
    Russia being incomparable to the US in terms of power doesn't mean that Washington doesn't insist on treating Russia as a rival.



  20. #100

    Default Re: Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Just like for any other country - around American borders. Anything beyond that is not American taxpayer's problem.
    Let's all park this slippery slope in a corner of our minds.
    The Armenian Issue

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