Russia, US, Ukraine, and the Future

[Laser101]

No matter how much you would like to suggest, they are not comparable. Show me something like Bucha or the Mariupol Theater bombing from the Ukrainians.

The Ukrainians haven't really had opportunity or motive yet. The Russians appear to have started out with the presumption (presumably a product of wishful thinking) that resistance would be minimal and they would be welcomed as liberators. They then reacted rather badly to being disabused of that belief. To date, all of the areas the Ukrainians have retaken were dominated by ethnic Ukrainians loyal to the Ukrainian state, so there wasn't any reason for the Ukrainian forces to do such things.

[Sar1n]

Russia is winning so much that even Prigozhin wants to stop the grinder:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wagner-gr...JiCFtMx_taSRIu

[Coughdrop addict]

@Coughdrop addict
And you appear unfamiliar with how logic and rational thought works, but ok I see how it is, in that case here you go:

Just $10k, satisfaction guaranteed. Let me know where I can send the payment information.

So to recap:

-You were hurt and offended that posters were discussing Russian stormtroopers decapitating Ukrainian freedom fighters.

-You rushed to Russia's defense by making up a story about captured stormtroopers having their organs stolen in an attempt at some both-sidesism.

-You became defensive and evasive when asked for any proof of the event you made up.

-You tried to change the subject to how all western media is lying about Russia and Glorious Leader Putin. You denied massacres at Bucha happened/implied it was Ukrainians killing their own civilians.

-You accused me of being gullible because I don't take you at your word based on your history of being unable to back up your claims about Russian victimhood and Ukrainian/U.S. aggression.

[Cyclops]

"Everyone is bad, war is bad, but also US are the hypocrites in chief" isn't a great argument. Russia started this war (that they still dishonestly claim is a special operation) in Ukraine, and the last one, as an act of theft. Bizarre claims that Russia deserves to inherit former USSR are illegal nonsense, and only pragmatically acceptable if they can be enforced, which they cannot. All the war crimes in Ukraine have as their starting point Russian weakness: they failed to decapitate so they use missiles on civilians and civic infrastructure, their demoralised soldiers rape and murder, their failed military fall back on obscene propaganda about Nazis and Jews and witchcraft.

All that demonstrates Russian weakness. They can't keep the peace so they don't get to argue they are there as peacekeepers. Why are they there if they can't win? If Russia starts wars it can't finish its a failing state, as the US was in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It was up to the US to GTFO of Saigon and Kabul and they did so under two presidents with a bit less regard for window dressing than most. Putin is clearly less pragmatic than Nixon or Trump or Biden and is too much a prisoner to his own bull**** narrative to stop the war.

US has plenty of war crimes but it took decades in Iraq and Afghanistan to come up with a list like the Russians have accumulated in a year in Ukraine. In Australia we've had the UK and US as masters, I'll take the US thx. Russia? I'd rather die fighting than let the brigand Putin near my country, my family or my people.

If posters are happy to argue "Russia stronk so obey" might want to take that to its logical conclusion: US stronkest. Its a bad argument.

[Kyriakos]

Meanwhile, China is about to forcibly annex Taiwan. I wonder what the US will do, though being at war with the two other major nuclear powers isn't a good idea.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/11/p...iew/index.html

[conon394]

Meanwhile, China is about to forcibly annex Taiwan. I wonder what the US will do, though being at war with the two other major nuclear powers isn't a good idea.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/11/p...iew/index.html

As before good ideal or not the The has to act as it will defend Taiwan to convince Xi that its a good ideal - A Chinses dominated Taiwan is simply not really an option for the US.

[Kyriakos]

^It's a bit foreboding that the title of that cnn article refers to Taiwan as just "island". I wonder if it is to help US readers identify the situation, or a sneak demotion. Wouldn't term (say) GB an island, if war was pending there

[conon394]

^It's a bit foreboding that the title of that cnn article refers to Taiwan as just "island". I wonder if it is to help US readers identify the situation, or a sneak demotion. Wouldn't term (say) GB an island, if war was pending there

I think you are reading too much into that. Its just a point that the situation is gray. Country would obviously be formally inaccurate. Nation might work. But tricky while think now something like over 70% of the population identifies as only Taiwanese - stil status quo bare majority the political side of the question of independence so. So realistically Island just fits with the most accuracy.

I can't see sneak downgrade. Its pretty clear that oddy in the The fromp Trump to BIden and in the House and Senate the US is pretty clearly moved away from the Bushy JR and Obama dis interest on the subject and is really signaling forced reunification is unacceptable to the US.

[Alastor]

So to recap.

I'm not interested in your delusions any further. Selling you that bridge is win enough. No refunds btw.

"Everyone is bad, war is bad, but also US are the hypocrites in chief" isn't a great argument. Russia started this war (that they still dishonestly claim is a special operation) in Ukraine, and the last one, as an act of theft. Bizarre claims that Russia deserves to inherit former USSR are illegal nonsense, and only pragmatically acceptable if they can be enforced, which they cannot. All the war crimes in Ukraine have as their starting point Russian weakness: they failed to decapitate so they use missiles on civilians and civic infrastructure, their demoralised soldiers rape and murder, their failed military fall back on obscene propaganda about Nazis and Jews and witchcraft.

All that demonstrates Russian weakness. They can't keep the peace so they don't get to argue they are there as peacekeepers. Why are they there if they can't win? If Russia starts wars it can't finish its a failing state, as the US was in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It was up to the US to GTFO of Saigon and Kabul and they did so under two presidents with a bit less regard for window dressing than most. Putin is clearly less pragmatic than Nixon or Trump or Biden and is too much a prisoner to his own bull**** narrative to stop the war.

US has plenty of war crimes but it took decades in Iraq and Afghanistan to come up with a list like the Russians have accumulated in a year in Ukraine. In Australia we've had the UK and US as masters, I'll take the US thx. Russia? I'd rather die fighting than let the brigand Putin near my country, my family or my people.

If posters are happy to argue "Russia stronk so obey" might want to take that to its logical conclusion: US stronkest. Its a bad argument.

The US are the hypocrites-in-chief by virtue of their influence and power, not because they are singularly bad. Any state that leads the most powerful block in the world would replace them. So don't give me this "poor-US' nonsense. The argument is fine. Instead, what is weak is your argument that Russia invaded (I dispute the "started" or at least provoked the war claim), therefore the other side can do whatever the hell they want and it's Russia's fault. I hate to have to keep repeating sth so simple and obvious, but it seems it's necessary. Here we go again then: two wrongs, don't make a right.

Also, the US failing in Vietnam, or Afghanistan does not make the US a failed or failing state. It makes them simply a state that at those circumstances failed.

The US has indeed many war crimes under its belt, as it wages wars and war crimes happen in wars, and the people that revealed them are still in trouble, like in the case of Assange languishing in some British prison with no visible recourse. This if anything proves my point that our media is not impartial, that the state interferes. The power of the US to control the narrative is far greater than that of Russia, on the world stage. Who knows how many war crimes we never heard about because those that knew about it did not want to end up character assassinated and hiding in an Ecuadorian embassy.

Not sure who argued "Russia stronk so obey" and in what context, but yes the US is stronger and the world (especially the west) is generally obeying. I have noted that the EU is but a vassal several times. I would argue Australia is no different. I don't see what point you are trying to make here.

[Kyriakos]

Ultimately, Taiwan will become part of PRC. But maybe China is of the view that if it happens now, US won't be able to help - since it already is involved in sending arms/money to Ukraine.
And realistically, even assuming US (with the current level of participation) can save either Ukraine or Taiwan, it can't save both at the same time.

[conon394]

Ultimately, Taiwan will become part of PRC

I doubt that.

But maybe China is of the view that if it happens now, US won't be able to help - since it already is involved in sending arms/money to Ukraine.
And realistically, even assuming US (with the current level of participation) can save either Ukraine or Taiwan, it can't save both at the same time.

I would not be so sure. The assets it needs to save Taiwan the USN and Air Force are not what is using to help Ukraine.

[Kyriakos]

Sending ships to sink chinese ships, when you are next to the massive chinese coast with all its missile installations, will quickly mean you'll need new ships.
No money/arms for Ukraine anyway.

Unlike China, by the way, which has alliances for other reasons (eg with Russia), US can't afford to even look like losing in any such war.

[conon394]

Sending ships to sink chinese ships, when you are next to the massive chinese coast with all its missile installations, will quickly mean you'll need new ships.
No money/arms for Ukraine anyway.

Unlike China, by the way, which has alliances for other reasons (eg with Russia), US can't afford to even look like losing in any such war.

For an actual war ner CHina it will subs that matter. And long range missiles delivered via air. Interesting question is if either side would pull the trigger of attacking satellites. In any case you keep goin to an actual war the goal for the US is of deterrence that Xi credibly believes the US would intervene to stop a forced reunification.

No money/arms for Ukraine anyway.

Why again?

[Kyriakos]

Because a US war with China, in the Chinese sea, will not be something US can side-focus on. Unless, of course, you think the US public will go to a war economy to protect Taiwan or Ukraine.

[conon394]

Because a US war with China, in the Chinese sea, will not be something US can side-focus on. Unless, of course, you think the US public will go to a war economy to protect Taiwan or Ukraine.

An actual war would pretty disaterious for everyone's economy - war footing would be a necessity even you were on the sidelines. Again what I am more concerned about is who plays the came of chicken effective enough to deter Xi. Question might hinge on what happens with COVID now that given up on lockdowns but had not even piss poor Chinese vaccination strategy in place. Things go sideways does the man need a big time distraction. Personally I like Bidens Chips act and sanctions of chip production gear to China but the US needs to step up deterrence by really ramping up stockpiles. And also in the chip manufacturing area issuing long-term Dod contracts to basically subsidize excess capacity same for Rathion. I don't care it means having people working just 3 days week on rotation to retain them.

[Coughdrop addict]

I'm not interested in your delusions any further. Selling you that bridge is win enough. No refunds btw.

Surrender accepted.

The US are the hypocrites-in-chief by virtue of their influence and power, not because they are singularly bad. Any state that leads the most powerful block in the world would replace them.

Yeah, I don't believe you. I think that if the Soviet Union were the global superpower today you'd be just fine with it and defend it's every action with the same fervor you do Russia.

(I dispute the "started" or at least provoked the war claim),

Putin has agency and is the dictator of Russia. He made the call to invade. Ukraine did nothing to provoke this, it was all Putin's belief he has a divine right to rule all former Russian slave states and possibly the world.

therefore the other side can do whatever the hell they want and it's Russia's fault. I hate to have to keep repeating sth so simple and obvious, but it seems it's necessary. Here we go again then: two wrongs, don't make a right.

Of course the formula becomes somewhat more complicated when the actions of the Ukrainian freedom fighters you see as "wrong" are defending their families from rape and murder at the hands of Putin's vile orcs, and you can never back up your allegations of rampant Ukrainian warcrimes.

The US has indeed many war crimes under its belt, as it wages wars and war crimes happen in wars, and the people that revealed them are still in trouble, like in the case of Assange languishing in some British prison with no visible recourse. This if anything proves my point that our media is not impartial, that the state interferes.

It proves nothing of the sort. Assange is in jail for crimes he committed. You simply approve of the crimes he committed and don't think they are crimes because they harmed the U.S.

The power of the US to control the narrative is far greater than that of Russia, on the world stage.

Completely false. Russia has the most powerful propaganda machine in human history. Look how it has you dancing to Putin's tune like a puppet on a string. And you're not the only one.

Who knows how many war crimes we never heard about because those that knew about it did not want to end up character assassinated and hiding in an Ecuadorian embassy.

All speculation with no proof to back it up. You might as well say "Who knows how many of the kidnapped Ukrainian children Putin has personally eaten? He could have done so. It could have all been covered up by a massive conspiracy."

Not sure who argued "Russia stronk so obey" and in what context, but yes the US is stronger and the world (especially the west) is generally obeying. I have noted that the EU is but a vassal several times. I would argue Australia is no different. I don't see what point you are trying to make here.

You clearly don't understand the difference between allies and vassals.

Remember Brexit? President Obama asked Britain to reconsider. He didn't want it to happen. But when it did, did he invade? How many cities were destroyed? How many mass graves were dug for slaughtered British citizens?

Exactly zero.

And back to Assange, Britain has denied U.S. requests to extradite him. Again, no invasion and genocide.

Now, what do you think would happen if Belarus decided it wanted closer ties to the west? What if they had someone Putin wanted and refused to hand them over? I'll tell you what would happen, Minsk would be leveled.

[Kyriakos]

Allies typically don't change policy when told to, then buy a trillion dollars worth of weapons from their equal ally.
Eu is a vassal. It could have been something else, but by now that's what it is.

[Coughdrop addict]

Allies typically don't change policy when told to, then buy a trillion dollars worth of weapons from their equal ally.
Eu is a vassal. It could have been something else, but by now that's what it is.

Being asked to do something as a favor is not the same thing as being ordered to do it on pain of invasion. E.U. bought those weapons to defend itself against Russia. What do you think, the U.S. just said "Give me 1$ trillion!" and the E.U. replied with "Yes master..."?

I'll tell you the same thing I tell others. Just because the E.U. makes a decision you don't like doesn't mean the United States forced them into it. You credit us with far more power than we have.

[Alastor]

Completely false. Russia has the most powerful propaganda machine in human history. Look how it has you dancing to Putin's tune like a puppet on a string. And you're not the only one.

I was going to respond, until I read this. You are right, I do surrender. Idiocy is unbeatable.

Do enjoy the bridge though.

[conon394]

Allies typically don't change policy when told to, then buy a trillion dollars worth of weapons from their equal ally.
Eu is a vassal. It could have been something else, but by now that's what it is.

How is it a vassal?


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in trouble, like in the case of Assange languishing in some British prison with no visible recourse

Seem like the proper place for him. You have to work hard to get any sympathy from for him from me.